[Updated for Dragonflight] Munitions - If RSV was to return

Petitioning for the idea of adding what was RSV + modern design applications as a 4th spec option for the class.

This concept has been updated to fit the philosophies and changes to the design of classes as a whole, as we can see for Dragonflight. All baseline abilities that are given on a class-wide basis would be the same for all hunter specs, incl this one. As for the talents for Munitions(old RSV), see below.


As usual, any numbers mentioned are only here to provide further depth to the concept and are ofc subject to change. Feedback is appreciated!

Starting ability in the class tree, given for free

I would move Serpent Sting from its current position in the class tree, to take the place of Concussive Shot as a starting talent. Concussive Shot itself I would simply move 1 row down, like the image shows. The image itself, other than the aformentioned changes, is the same as the current up-to-date version, seen in the Alpha for Dragonflight. As per the title of this section, this new spec would be given Serpent Sting for free, similar to how for example Beast Mastery gets Kill Command for free.

[Serpent Sting] - 10 Focus - Instant cast
Fire a shot that poisons your target, causing them to take Nature damage over 18 sec.

[Placeholder talent] - The PH talent in the image could simply be one that, if picked, gives you -/- % more non-physical damage dealt.

Mastery Bonus

[Mastery Bonus: Toxicology] - Increases all non-physical damage dealt by X%, based on Mastery.

Specialization Talents

Edit:
Have made the tree available in a calculator for the concept seen below. Feel free to check it out.

I would argue that Lone Wolf shouldn’t be a talent, but a baseline passive for both of these specs, RSV and MM. For anyone who wishes to make use of it.

The image below shows a mock-up pic of what the spec tree for Munitions(old RSV) could look like, based on the new design found in the link for the calculator, also seen below. Below the image are all the explanations and tooltips for all the talent nodes. Again - Feedback is of course much appreciated. There are also an additional note at the bottom of the post, regarding a specific talent: Dark Minion, that is present in the talent tree. Image link: https://i.imgur.com/gfXQSzV.png

Download TTM(TalentTreeManager) here: https://github.com/TobiasM95/WoW-Talent-Tree-Manager (Not made by me)

After it’s installed, start it up. Once it is, click on the + to open a new tab. This makes a small pop-up window appear, in which you can choose to import a preset from an existing spec/class, or you can import a custom one. To get the concept above imported, copy-paste the code, all of it, into the custom import box and click ‘Import Tree’.

Link for the code(scroll down the page and copy-paste the code in the “Raw Paste Data” window): https://pastebin.com/pxjdj0wx

-Row 1-

[Explosive Shot] - 20 Focus - Instant cast - 10 sec recharge - 2 charges
Fire an explosive charge into the enemy target, dealing Fire damage. The charge will blast the target every second for an additional 4 sec.

-Row 2-

Choice node, pick one of the following talents

[Cobra Shot] - Instant cast
A fast shot that causes X Physical damage.

Generates 10 Focus.

[Fusion Shot] - 2 sec cast time(castable while moving) - 6 sec recharge - 2 Charges
Fire a charged shot into the target, dealing Physical damage.

When your next ability that deals periodic damage hits the target, this triggers a volatile fusion, immediately causing it to erupt, instantly dealing additional damage equal to 25% of it’s total duration. The target will take additional damage of the same type as the ability used to trigger the fusion for the next 12 sec.

Generates 25 Focus.

[Black Arrow] - 30 Focus - Instant cast - 30 sec cooldown
Fire a shot infused with dark energy at the target, dealing Shadow damage over 12 sec.

The periodic damage-effect applied by Black Arrow can be stacked up to 3 times on the same enemy.

-Row 3-

[Serpent’s Focus] - Cobra Shot generates 3/6 additional Focus per cast.

Cobra Shot now has a high chance of generating double Focus when fired.

[Exothermia] (Requires talent: Fusion Shot)
Increases your critical strike chance against any enemy you hit with Fusion Shot by 3/6% for 9 sec. Dealing Fire damage to the target extends the duration of this effect even further.

Fusion Shot generates an additonal 5/10 Focus over 5 sec.

[Exotic Munitions] - Your Auto Attacks have a chance to increase the remaining duration of Serpent Sting, Black Arrow, Immolation Trap, and Surging Shot by 5 seconds, on an enemy affected by either of these periodic damage effects.

[Lock and Load] - Periodic damage dealt by Black Arrow have a chance to cause your next Explosive Shot to cost no Focus and trigger no cooldown.

-Row 4-

[Spitting Cobra] - Cobra Shot now deals an additional 15% damage as Nature damage and extends the remaining duration of Serpent Sting on the enemy target by 9 sec.

[Noxious Stings] - Increases the periodic critical damage of your Serpent Sting by 20%. Increases the periodic critical damage of Explosive Shot and Black Arrow by 20% on targets affected by Serpent Sting.

[Ever Burning] - If you fire Explosive Shot into an enemy already affected by a previous charge, the remaining duration of that charge is refreshed as well as increased by an additional 3 seconds.

An active charge can only have a max duration of 9 seconds.

[Multi-Shot] - 40 Focus - Instant cast
Fires several missiles, hitting all enemies within 8 yards of your current target for Physical damage.

[Vespoid Venom] - Whenever Serpent Sting deals damage, there’s a chance that this can cause all other periodic damage effects you have applied to the target to instantly deal damage equal to one tick of their total effect.

If this proc occurs when the target is affected by Black Arrow, this will instantly refresh its remaining duration and restore 8 Focus back to you.

[Rapid Reload] - Lock and Load now grants 2 charges of Explosive Shot when it procs, instead of 1.

[Catalysis] - Duration 10 sec.

Black Arrow increases any Fire-damage you deal to an enemy by 5/10%.

In addition, Explosive Shot-charges granted by Lock & Load have a 50/100% chance to extend the remaining duration of Black Arrow by 1 second every time they deal damage to the affected target.

-Row 5-

[Improved Serpent Sting] - Serpent Sting now deals 15/30% increased damage against targets below 30% health.

[Exotic Munitions: Ever Burning] - Exotic Munition-procs, when they occur, always increase the remaining duration of any active Explosive Shot charge you have on the current target by 3 seconds.

[Improved Explosive Shot] - Damage dealt by Explosive Shot is increased by 5/10%.

[Serpent Spread] - Targets hit by Multi-Shot are also afflicted by Serpent Sting equal to 9 sec of its duration.

[Wyrmstalker] - Casting Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, Serpent Sting, or Multi-Shot reduces the Focus cost and increases the damage of your next Arcane Shot by 15/30%. This effect stacks.

[Intoxication] - Your ranged Auto Attacks have a 5/10% chance to grant you 2 stacks of Intoxication. When Black Arrow expires from an enemy, you gain a stack of this effect as well.

Intoxication

  • When you use an ability that deals instant damage, it has a 50/100% chance to be a critical strike.
  • When you use an ability that deals periodic damage, damage caused by this ability is increased by an additional 10/20%.

-Row 6-

[Death Adder] - Serpent Sting also deals instant damage equal to 30% of its total periodic effect.

Also applies to Talent: Serpent Spread.

Every time Serpent Sting deals damage, you have a chance to gain 3 Focus.

[T.N.T.] - Explosive Shot now also deals 20/40/60% damage to all enemies near the primary target.

[Munition Tactics] - 20 sec duration - 2 minute cooldown.
Increases your haste by 25% and instantly triggers Lock & Load. When Explosive Shot is used during Munition Tactics, this resets the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow.

The Focus cost of all offensive abilities is reduced by 50% while Munition Tactics is active.

[Exotic Munitions: Arcane Shot] - Arcane Shot now has a 15% chance to trigger an Exotic Munitions-proc when fired.

[Surging Shot] - 25 Focus - Instant cast - 1 minute cooldown
Fire a shot with an attached electrical charge that will send Electrifying Shocks through the enemy that’s been hit, dealing Nature damage every 2 sec, over 20 sec.

-Row 7-

[Exotic Munitions: Death Adder] - If the passive effect “Exotic Munitions” procs while your Serpent Sting is active on the target, this also triggers the Death Adder-effect.

[Immolation Trap] - Instant cast - 1 minute cooldown
Hurls a fire trap to the target location that will burn the first enemy to approach for Fire damage over 20 sec. The trap will exist for 1 min.

Choice node, pick one of the following two talents

[Munition Tactics: Black Arrow] - Any time Explosive Shot deals damage to a target affected by Black Arrow, during Munition Tactics, this will cause the periodic damage effect applied by Black Arrow to spread to nearby enemies as well.

[Soulflay] - Increases the base duration of Black Arrow by 4 sec.

Black Arrow increases all damage you deal to the affected target by 15% while Munition Tactics is active.

[Improved Black Arrow] - Damage dealt by Black Arrow is increased by 5/10%.

[“Surgery”] - Whenever Surging Shot deals damage via Electrifying Shocks, it has a 10/20% chance to deal damage a second time.

[E.M.F.] - While the periodic damage effect from Surging Shot remains active, there’s a 50/100% chance for the remaining cooldown of Surging Shot to be reduced by 0.5 sec every time you deal periodic damage to the affected target. In addition, if an enemy target dies while affected by Surging Shot, the remaining cooldown is reset.

This effect only applies to the initial target of Surging Shot.

-Row 8-

[Inferno] - Increases damage dealt by Immolation Trap by 5/10%.

Whenever an enemy triggers Immolation Trap, or if an enemy that is affected by Explosive Shot is within, or if you hit an enemy with Cluster Shot within 10 yards of an armed Immolation Trap, this will set off the trap, causing a wave of fire to engulf all nearby enemies within 12 yards of the trap.

Targets hit by the wave take instant Fire damage equal to 20/40% of the total effect of Immolation Trap, and another 30/60% over a period of 10 sec.

[Pre-Heat] - The cooldown of Immolation Trap is reduced by 5 seconds every time Immolation Trap deals critical damage to the enemy target. In addition, if an enemy target dies while affected by Immolation Trap, its cooldown is reset.

[Exotic Munitions: Immolation Trap] - When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc, it will grant you an additional bonus effect when it extends the duration of Immolation Trap.

-Increases damage dealt by Immolation Trap by 7.5/15% for the remaining duration.

[Rapid Recuperation] - Damage caused by Explosive Shot have a chance to reduce the remaining cooldown of Munition Tactics by 1 sec.

Whenever Lock & Load procs, this causes the next Explosive Shot fired to have a 50/100% chance to reduce the remaining cooldown of Munition Tactics by 1 sec every time it deals damage to the target.

[Dark Minion] - When Black Arrow deals damage to an enemy, it has a chance to summon an undead minion to aid you in combat, attacking that same enemy for 10 sec.

If an enemy dies with Black Arrow still active on it, a powerful minion will reanimate to serve you for 60 sec. This can only happen once every 45 sec.

[Shocking] - When Surging Shot deals damage through Electrifying Shocks, you have a 4/8% chance to trigger Lock & Load, granting a free charge of Explosive Shot.

[Full Circuit] - Electrifying Shocks from Surging Shot can now jump to enemies near the primary target, dealing additional Nature damage to each enemy it hits, as well as dealing damage to any enemy that is near the target of a jump.

-Row 9-

[Wildfire] - 8 sec duration
The periodic damage effect applied by Immolation Trap will now spread to any enemy standing in close range to an already burning target. As long as an enemy is within range of another enemy affected by Wildfire or Immolation Trap, the Wildfire will continue to spread.

[Volatile Concoctions] - When Explosive Shot deals damage to an enemy affected by Black Arrow, there’s a chance that this adds another stack to the periodic damage effect of Black Arrow.

If the periodic effect of Black Arrow is already at three stacks, it will instead add damage to the existing effect for 30% of the total value. The bonus damage added to the existing effect will only last for a total of 12 sec, regardless of how long the existing effect stays active. Also applies to manual applications of Black Arrow.

Choice node, pick one of the following talents

[Exotic Munitions: Black Arrow] - When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc, it will grant you an additional bonus effect when it extends the duration of Black Arrow.

  • The remaining cooldown of Black Arrow is instantly reset.

[Exotic Munitions: Surging Shot] - When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc, it will grant you an additional bonus effect when it extends the duration of Surging Shot.

  • Triggers an Electrifying Shock to deal instant Nature damage equal to the remaining duration of the periodic effect from Surging Shot, up to a max of 50% of the total effect.

[Double-Charged] - Surging Shot now has 1 additional charge.

[Exotic Munitions: Full Circuit] - The chance to proc Exotic Munitions is increased by 10% on enemies affected by Electrifying Shock.

-Row 10-

[Cluster Shot] - 25 Focus - Instant cast - 15 sec cooldown.
Fire a shot which explodes on impact, instantly dealing Physical damage to the primary target and all other nearby enemies, and causing them to bleed for Physical damage over 3 sec.

Explosive Shot-charges which are still active on any target(s) hit by Cluster Shot will instantly erupt, dealing all remaining damage to the affected target(s) at once.

Choice node, pick one of the following talents

[Static Overload] - Instant - 1.5 min cooldown
Overload an Electrifying Shock on the current target, blasting the primary target along with all enemies within 12 yards for additional Nature damage and consumes the charge in the process. When such an overload occurs, the discharge creates an Arc Field that lasts for 6 sec. Any enemy that steps into the field has a high chance of being affected by Electrifying Shock yet again.

[Supercharge] - Instant - 1 min cooldown
Increases the critical strike chance and damage of the next Surging Shot by 30%, and also increases the base duration by 5 sec.

Note regarding “Talent: Dark Minion”
I decided to include this talent as, due to the recent quest chain, and customizations that were added in-game. These allow players to change the appearance of their hunter characters to more closely resemble Dark Rangers. Based on this, in short, I wanted to give anyone who enjoys that fantasy and theme an option to embrace it even more.


Changelog

2022-07-20

  • Reworked the entire concept to fit with the changes coming in the Dragonflight-expansion.
  • Added additional ranks to certain talents in key positions.

2022-07-22

  • Added a new talent called Inferno in the 8th row.

  • Added a new talent called Shocking in the 8th row, along with new paths to avoid having to take nodes for AoE tied to Surging Shot. Making the AoE optional.

2022-07-30

  • Moved a part of the effect that was provided by talent: Spitting Cobra, over to talent: Serpent’s Focus instead. The effect that gives Cobra Shot casts a chance to generate double Focus.
  • Talent: Noxious Stings have had an adjustment made to its tooltip, to better reflect the intended theme/design.

2022-07-31

  • Swapped the places of talents: Exotic Munitions/Vespoid Venom.
    Note: This was done due to how Exotic Munitions interacts with various talents in the entire tree, it should be in a key position/intersection node. Vespoid Venom has direct ties with Black Arrow, and as such, it makes sense to have it on a direct downwards path from Black Arrow itself.

2022-08-07

  • Added some new elements to the talent Volatile Concoctions, to make it more useful in single-target scenarios.

2022-08-10

  • Changed the tooltip for the talent “Inferno”. To clarify how it’s supposed to work.

2022-08-14

  • Changed the talent node in row 7, called Munition Tactics: Black Arrow. It is now a choice node where you can pick between the aforementioned talent, and a new talent called Soulflay.

28 Likes
Please do NOT change Survival to ranged (+ tuning suggestion)
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SV BLASTS in M+!

Man I miss ranged survival. Favorite all time spec. I quit early into MoP and came back for SL and literally said wtf is this. Whoever said RSV was too much like MM and changed it was 100% braidead or just making s**t up. That’s why I loved it. Elemental dmg that took advantage of a diff set up raid buffs. DoT dmg and some traps were a fun playstyle for me. Lock and load with explosive shot during black arrow uptime was fun as hell. Then they gut RSV and give explosive shot to MM. I mostly love SL it does alot of stuff right but class balance and design isnt one of those things. Petition signed for a 4th spec!!

19 Likes

Agreed 100%!

Probably this, or something along those lines. I’m sure it somehow made sense to them…

<3

4 Likes

Would give anything to get RSV back.

14 Likes

Man this just made me miss WOD allot holy crap, surv was a ton of fun in battlegrounds.

3 Likes

I’m down for this. I really enjoy the current iteration of SV. But you just made me all nostalgic for some LOCK AND LOAD!! Plus I’m always down for shaking things up. Keeps things interesting through the years :slight_smile:

3 Likes

You and me both.

That was the goal^^. Hopefully we’ll see it(RSV) back some day.

<3

Appreciate it, although keep in mind this:

I have no interest in removing an existing hunter spec, such as MSV, in favor of bringing RSV back. For one, we don’t have to because the above is not the same as anything the class has atm. It doesn’t have to be a case of ‘either-or’.

5 Likes

One thing I’d like to point out here is that this introduces some serious non-linear scaling.

For example, let’s say you have 10% mastery. Ignoring Munition Tactics for the moment, Black Arrow will have an uptime at 0% mastery of 12/30 = 40%. The mastery will increase this in a non-linear manner. Specifically, it clips if it gets at least 2 resets, but since resets can “chain”, it’s actually better than linear despite the clipping. I threw together a quick sim, and across the range 0% to 50% (in 5% increments), you get between 0.4% and 0.5% uptime for each 1% mastery, with the amount gained increasing as your mastery level goes up.

Anyway, point is, as mastery goes up, so too does uptime. But it also increases damage while active, and beyond that also increases average Explosive Shot reset rate (since that’s effectively proportional to uptime).

For example, at 10% mastery, you have a ~44.20% uptime on 10% damage increase, for a total of +4.42% damage. At 20% mastery, you have a ~46.45% uptime on a 20% damage increase, for a total of +9.29%, which is 2.1x as much as you had at 10%. At 50% (probably impossible, but still illustrative), you have ~65.00% uptime on a 50% damage increase, for a total of +32.5%, 7.35x as much as at 10% despite only having 5x as much mastery percentage.

Add on top of that the roughly 47% increased average rate of Explosive Shot resets (due to having 147% as much uptime, 44.20% -> 65.00%, and you’re getting way more than 5x as much benefit from having 5x as much mastery. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised, depending on tuning of ability coefficients, if it exceeded a 10x benefit compared to the value at 10% mastery.

Anyway, TL;DR, this Mastery might be doing too much, and/or need a redesign. Honestly, despite it being relatively “boring”, the old “you do X% more elemental damage” mastery was pretty effective. It also benefitted AoE, which this one one really does during Munition Tactics.

Honestly, from a rotational differentiation perspective, I think this would make more sense if it were casted like Steady Shot. RSV didn’t suffer for that back in WoD and MoP, and having an entire rotation of nothing but instant abilities gets rather boring, especially when they’re all just variants of “shoot a colorful arrow”. Otherwise the only rotational variation is the once-per-minute Immo Trap.

2 Likes

Thanks for the feedback Kaedys

As stated in the opening segment, all numbers are subject to change and are not to be taken as anything final. It’s more about the individual mechanics as thematic additions as well as for…proof of concept.

Having said that, if the design of the Mastery-effect I proposed simply cannot be adjusted to a satisfying degree, to a point where the numbers make sense, I’d be happy to hear about any suggestions. Worth noting is that I don’t intend for the damage bonus provided by the Mastery to be scaling the same way as the secondary effect.

Example: Let’s say you have 10% Mastery, and that this would mean that you have a 10% chance for the duration of Black Arrow to refresh instead of drop off upon expiration.

But for the first effect, the increase to damage done, would/should ofc be quite a bit lower than the above. If the secondary effect seen above is at 10%, maybe the first effect/damage bonus could be around 5%?
And thus, double that, you’d get 10% more damage and a 20% chance to refresh.
Triple, 15% more damage, 30% chance to refresh.

Again, numbers aren’t final.


On another note, as you’ve probably noticed, by default outside of RNG and without certain talents picked, you would only have a 40% uptime on Black Arrow. But I have no intention to keep it that low when you combine everything, quite the opposite.

My goal is that, depending on what talents you pick, you should get close to or even reach 100% uptime on Black Arrow(w/e makes the feel/gameplay the best really). Especially during Munition Tactics where you should be able to keep/build Black Arrow up on multiple targets at once, and especially if they’re stacked closer together.

I thought of that initially, but in the end I decided not to assign a cast time to Cobra Shot since they made it an instant cast-ability going into Legion.

And in my mind at least, considering how the goal is to double down on the DoT-gameplay as a concept/theme, for example with the talent Spitting Cobra as seen above, IMO it would feel better not having to plan/play around the maintenance aspects of DoT-management through an ability with a cast time.

See my comment just above this one.

True, unless you decide to pick the talent Dire Frenzy.

Ya, but it still suffers from the same issue. The mastery is increasing both the potency and uptime of a damage amp, one that also has rotational effect by making Explosive Shot available more often due to Lock and Load. Unless it were simply crazy undertuned, mastery would inevitably be SV’s best stat with that design.

The core issue is that it gets better the more of it you have. It scales quite a bit better than linearly. Most stats either stat the same (in terms of absolute benefit per point, their marginal percentage value per point always goes down) or get slightly worse as you get more. Basically, I think the mastery is trying to do too many things at once.

Eh, they made it an instacast ability in Legion because it was becoming BM’s consumer, equivalent to Arcane Shot’s current rotational role for MM. Your design for RSV has essentially 6 instacast “shots”, 5 of which are spenders with varying effects and one of which is a generator. The rotation itself would feel rather too similar, imo.

I mean, I’m talking like a 1.5s cast here, GCD-length. The cast time is just there to provide some variety, it wouldn’t meaningfully affect actual rotational pacing.

Ya, about that. Dire Frenzy as described is basically just Barbed Shot. I doubt that’d make it’s way into RSV as a talent. It’s too centrally thematic for BM. They’d have to redesign BM’s core gameplay to ditch it.

Also, it’s distinctly odd to add a pet-focused ability to a spec that also has Lone Wolf. Think you might be trying to bring in too many animal-focused talents here. This isn’t BM.

Also, that talent would be replacing what is otherwise a spammable filler with a charge-based ability is problematic. That leaves RSV without a spammable focus dump.

2 Likes

Fair enough, got any suggestions?

Sure, but why would that matter?

If the cast time added equates to a GCD or even close to it, then what would be the difference?

You wait on the GCD to cast something else, or you stare at a cast bar for the length of a GCD to cast something else? I assume that you intend for it to be castable on the move as it used to be?

I mean…not really. For one, DF as a talent here is not designed to where you have to rely on RNG for a high/constant uptime. DF is not a ranged shot And it’s a direct attack performed by your pet, vs a DoT in Barbed Shot.

The maintenance aspects of it are not at all the same thing as what can be seen with Barbed Shot.

It’s one ability.

Besides, the intent was to keep it optional(a talent) so that anyone who wanted to go with Lone Wolf could do so. We have MM which is very much intended to be the spec without any pet reliance whatsoever beyond the very basiscs.

We have BM and now MSV both of which have mandatory pet reliance as core parts of their gameplay.

The intent was for RSV to then be a middle-ground, where players could still go with Lone Wolf if they don’t want to play with a pet, but also have the option to play with a pet and make more use of it in cases where they might want to or where it just might be helpful. Either way, again, it’s 1 talent. If players can’t make use of a single talent(2 if you count 1 on the AoE-tier) because they’ve chosen to go with Lone Wolf, is that really a big deal?

No it doesn’t.

If you check the intended design, you’ll see that it has 3 charges. Ofc it’s not infinitely spammable, but how often is that an intended form of gameplay for a filler ability?
Having said that, if there needs to be some adjustments to the CD of the charges assigned to the ability, fair enough.

Rotational role. MM is the one thematically based around cast-time consumers, so BM got it instacast. I think it moved also somewhat just to differentiate it from it’s prior incarnation as a nature-damage variant of Steady Shot.

Because cast bars shuffle the rotational feel. The actual pacing wouldn’t change, but how the rotation flowed and felt from a player perspective would.

Yes, no reason to lock another spec down like MM. >.>

So it’s Barbed Shot with a different graphic, without Wild Call, and without the irrelevant bleed that literally no one actually cares about. It’s still mechanically nearly identical. It has a similar usage rate, it stacks if used repeatedly, and it’s mostly there to buff the pet, not the hunter. It really is basically just talenting into Barbed Shot.

Honestly, saying that’s not Barbed Shot is like arguing MSV’s Kill Command isn’t like BM’s Kill Command because one is a generator with an RNG reset and the other is a high-damage consumer. BM hunter are still rightfully outraged to see Kill Command effectively stolen by MSV.

Kinda, ya. It’d be like adding a talent to Fury that only works if you’re running Single Minded Fury, or adding a talent to Windwalker that only works if you’re using a 2hander. Adding a talent to DKs that only works with one specific Runeforge.

Having Lone Wolf be an option means it needs to actually be optional. When you start adding talents around one of the options, it ceases being an option and becomes a matter of balance. If that talent is balanced as the best option at some given time, then Lone Wolf effectively is just wasted spellbook space.

Erm…you understand that charge-based abilities cool down sequentially, not in parallel, right? Adding charges to an ability doesn’t really increase the average rate at which you can use it. Having 3 charges on an 8s recharge doesn’t mean you can use it 3 times every 8 seconds, it means you can use it, on average, once every 8s, and can simply hold 24s of recharge at a time.

It still floors at an average rate of the recharge time, which means that if you’re generating enough focus that you’d be using your filler spender more often than once every 8 seconds, well, now you’re just SOL. You have no options for spending that excess focus.

1 Like

Sure, like you said, quite a boring effect. And, one that also results in how your mastery would no longer have an impact on physical damage(such as your Auto Attacks which are stronger now relative to what they were in WoD), and it would also result in how anyone who runs with a pet is worse off compared to those who go for Lone Wolf as it wouldn’t affect pet damage.

And, it would also result in weaker Cobra Shots since those now deal physical damage. And yes, CS here is intended to be a generator so, not a massive issue, but still.

I mean…fair enough, although I find it strange how it should be an instant cast for BM but have a cast time for, in this case, RSV.

Cobra Shot in itself is just as synonymous with RSV as it is for BM, both specs always shared that ability while it was in the game, so I see no issue with both specs having it. It being a filler/spender for one spec and a generator for the other is…not ideal, but it wouldn’t be the first time we see things like that.

But IMO, if they then also start changing/adding more impactful mechanical functions…explain to me how it makes sense for it to be an instant cast for one spec but have a cast time for another spec? Despite how the theme of it is to reflect the rapid attacks of a serpent?

Barbed Shot: Ranged Shot, applies a bleed effect(DoT), adds a stacking(multiple) attack speed bonus to the pet, involves RNG, CDR for a major CD of the spec, generates Focus, is arguably the most important core function of the spec.

Dire Frenzy: Pet based attack, deals instant damage, adds a damage bonus to frequent repeat usage of the ability, no RNG, costs Focus, is a filler ability.

The only similarity between the two, is the fact of how it involves a damage amp, even though that particular one is not the same one for both abilities, neither in terms of functionality, nor in theme.

If I had named it Barbed Shot(incl making it a ranged shot) and had made it a generator instead of a spender, I would agree with you. Then the two would deff be too similar to one another.

Isn’t that the case with MM right now? In terms of the Lone Wolf-passive that is.

I mean with how, if it turns out that you do more damage in certain scenarios with a pet as MM then…is LW a waste of space for MM?

Note that we’re not concerned with min-maxing on the highest levels here. We’re not talking about theoretical differences of 10+ % between the different talent choices. Rather, somewhere closer to 1% or so.

All talents are optional. Use them if you want, or don’t.

Yep, that I do.

Which is why I said that if there needs to be some adjustments to the CD time in order to make the pacing better, then that should be done. Perhaps it should be 5 or 6 sec per charge instead of 8?

I mean, the same is true of Unholy’s mastery, and it’s one of their best stats. Same for Frost DK, doesn’t affect their primary spender (except with Killing Machine), and yet is a very strong stat for them. Frankly, it’s just a tuning thing.

The benefit of that type of mastery, while it’s “boring” on the surface, is that as gear advances, the rotational focus shifts more and more acutely to maximizing your elemental damage abilities, like Explosive Shot here.

The same is true of MM right now, MM mastery does not affect the pet. But running with a pet is still within about 1% DPS of without, at least in ST (AoE, it’s a larger gap, because the pet doesn’t AoE, but the same would be true of this RSV concept).

There’s nothing that says Cobra can’t go back to nature damage. Still, it’s fine if your mastery doesn’t impact your builder. BM mastery doesn’t impact Barbed Shot or Cobra Shot, and it’s still a solid stat for them. Retribution’s mastery affects neither Blade of Justice or Crusader Strike (or their auto-attacks).

Honestly, I’m not convinced BM should retain it, tbh. Cobra Shot fills a nearly identical role for BM as Arcane Shot does for MM. Why not simply make Arcane Shot BM’s spammable spender? Heck, could even give BM SV’s casted Cobra Shot, without the focus regen, just to give them something to do during their downtime.

cough Kill Command coughcough =P

Though actually, even aside from that, Execute is another good example. It’s a generator with a CD for Fury, and a spammable (well, no-CD, it’s metered by resource generation) spender that nearly entirely replaces other spenders during Execute for Arms.

Still, nothing says it has to be Cobra Shot. It’s a generator, there’s nothing really thematically tying the current instant spender physical-damage version of Cobra Shot to RSV.

Also, I’d like to point out that your proposal was having it be a generator for one spec and a spender for the other. You already acknowledge that the same spell working differently for different specs is fine.

Oh, and for an example of an ability that’s instant for one spec and casted for another, Corruption. It’s only instacast for Aff. Granted, it’s not rotational for Demo and Destro (except maybe sub-level-10). But it’s an example of exactly that situation.

It’s a charge-based ability with a relatively short that amps up the pet, and gains advantages for re-casting it within a certain interval. In terms of rotational role, it’s very very similar.

You’re also suggesting replacing SV’s spammable spender with a pet attack. That makes the pet way too central to their rotation. We already have BM for that, we don’t need to try to steal BM’s thunder in SV. If you want SV to sit somewhere between MM and BM as far as pet importance goes, just remove Lone Wolf from SV. No need to have a specific focused pet amp as a primary rotational spender.

No, because there aren’t any talents that specifically require or don’t work with Lone Wolf. There are scaling arguments about it, but for single target damage, using a pet and not using one are actually shockingly close.

I mean, people already get annoyed as MM that you have to summon a pet to use lust. Do you really want them complaining about a spec that has Lone Wolf, but also has a talent that literally doesn’t even work (and replaces a ranged shot!) without a pet out? Literally equivalent to adding a talent to Fury that requires 1h weapons, or to Windwalker that requires a 2h weapon. Why even have the option if you’re going to have talents that mandate one of the two?

Still creates a ceiling beyond which excess focus is simply wasted, because you lack the ability to spend it. This is why spammable spenders aren’t replaced by non-spammable ones. Generators can work that way, because you can balance the generation rate, but even then that generally only happens on classes without substantial passive regen (Enh and Vengeance being good examples that have had it in the past).

This is equivalent to a talent that replaces Mutilate with a charge-based ability, or one that replaces Chaos Strike with a charge-based ability. It just doesn’t work, because there’s inevitably a point where the generation rate exceeds your now metered ability to spend it and thus is straight wasted.

If you want to replace something in the rotation, it’d almost certainly have to be Cobra Shot, similar to how Sidewinders replaces Arcane Shot for MM during Legion, how Boulderfist replaced Rockbiter, and how Fracture replaces Shear. And even then, it still shouldn’t be a pet ability, because that’s too central.

For example:

Provides a little more variance without it having much rotational effect, helps emphasize the pet without really depending on it, shakes up the rotation by making the generator a charge-based ability, and plays directly into the “munition expert” theme, rather than trying to crib BM’s pet master theme.

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Hmm…

Thinking of redesigning a few things in the concept. First off:

The Mastery-effect…

[Mastery Bonus: Toxicology] - Increases all non-physical damage dealt by X%, based on Mastery.

Like you said, it’s boring, but it’s effective. If you/anyone has a suggestion for what else to add to make it more interesting in terms of gameplay, feel free to do so.

So…giving RSV a pet-based attack, with some additional gameplay to it, which doesn’t actually take after anything found within the current BM spec, is not okay. But making the spender-ability for BM the exact same as what it is for MM, is okay?

Yep :roll_eyes:

…to a degree…

Making abilities work slightly different for different specs does make sense, depending on how it’s done. But how does it make sense for an ability to be instant cast for one spec but have a cast time for another spec?

One that is arguably irrelevant considering that, design-wise, neither of the other specs once you actually pick them have any intention to make use of Corruption. The only reason it’s there to use is because of “Class Fantasy”. Corruption is not a spec-based ability for any Warlock-spec, apart from Aff.

The design of my proposed version of Dire Frenzy does not in any way amp up my pet, just the ability itself.

“Rotational feel” is ofc not irrelevant, but it’s not all that matters. There’s much more to it than that.

Based on?

When was that ever a goal?

A LOT of players who have voiced their interest in RSV over the years, have also mentioned how they would like the option to play it without a pet. This is the reason I wanted to include Lone Wolf as said option.

Debatable.

Anyway…what if(instead of Dire Frenzy)…

[Fusion Shot] - (Replaces Cobra Shot) - 1.5s cast time(castable while moving) - 2 charges - 6 sec recharge time
Fire a charged shot into the target, dealing Physical damage, triggering a delayed fusion which causes your next ability that deals periodic damage to also deal instant damage equal to 40% of it’s total duration.

Depending on which periodic effect that is triggered, the target will take additional damage from that source for the next 12 sec. Stacking up to 2 times.

Generates 25 Focus.

Again, numbers are ofc subject to change but…as a concept of design…

Thoughts?
(This ofc requires some other effects/talents to be reworked as well)

Only other thing I could think of would be to lean into the damage-over-time aspect:

Volatile Toxins (Mastery)
Passive

Whenever you deal damage with a periodic damage effect, there’s a 30% chance for the target to suffer deal X% Nature damage. You gain 1 focus whenever this occurs.

It scales in AoE (Serpent Sting), it really emphasizes the DoT/magic damage piece, it sticks with the “naturalist” theme since it’s damage from toxins, and presuming it’s tuned reasonable well, it very solidly embeds haste/mastery as the RSV priority stats. Also, notably Explosive Shot would count as a “periodic damage effect” for the purposes of this mastery.

In fact, to really play into that, add a talent or passive where Arcane Shot and Multi-Shot decrease the cooldown on Black Arrow by 0.5s or 1.0s or something. That would mean that increased focus regen = more Black Arrow uptime = more mastery procs.

Yes, for one very specific reason: Arcane Shot is baseline. It’s one of only two damage abilities that are available to all 3 hunter specs. In fact, by that argument, this RSV concept should be using Steady Shot rather then Cobra Shot, though that may make the two a bit too similar.

I admit it’s a fine line, however. I’m not fundamentally opposed to specs having thematic replacements for base abilities. Inferno Blast replacing Fire Blast, Primal Strike upgrading into Stormstrike, the subtle differences between the 3 mage spec shields, invis upgrading into greater invis for Arcane, etc. This might be one of those cases.

And if I’m being honest, part of why I wanted Arcane Shot to stay for BM is because Cobra Shot replaces Steady Shot. Right now, it replaces a casted filler with an instacast spender that has a nearly identical rotational role to Arcane Shot, and the devs even had to take steps in the SL beta to make it clear that BM is supposed to use Cobra rather than Arcane. If they’d simply used Arcane as their spender to start with, then Cobra could have retained it’s prior Steady-Shot-like mechanic and just been a spammable (but not focus-generating) filler for BM downtime. However, that would work equally well with Cobra Shot being an Arcane Shot replacement, and Steady Shot, or an analog, being the casted filler.

So I guess the question then becomes, how similar can the specs be permitted to be, and whether those baseline abilities should mean something or not. Blizzard make a big huff of returning “class-wide” abilities in SL, to try to restore the theme of being a hunter or warrior or mage, regardless of spec. But honestly, that entire push was really nothing but a PR piece, a waste of development time.

Very very few of those new “class-wide” abilities are actually used by multiple specs. Thinking through the classes, the only abilities newly baseline in SL that are used and have notable rotational impact across spec lines are Crusader Strike, Mind Blast, and Mind Sear. There are a few others that are used, but don’t really have a noticeable impact (ex. Raise Dead for Frost/Blood, but it’s really just a 2-minute-CD fire-and-forget DoT; Immolation Aura for Havoc was already effectively default in BfA) or were just cosmetic swaps (Blackout Strike for Blackout Kick for BrM, Rupture for Nightblade for Sub).

And then a bunch of them are just straight up useless, like Arcane Shot and Steady Shot. Slam is baseline, but only Arms is intended to use it. Execute is now available to prot, but is really only use if they aren’t actively tanking or if they’re Venthyr (because it can replace Ignore Pain due to the damage absorption). SotR is niche for Holy and completely useless for Ret, just like Shield Block and Shield Slam for DPS warriors. Primal Strike and Flametongue are a complete waste of space for Resto and Elemental.

So where should hunters fall within that? Should Arcane Shot and/or Steady Shot be a central ability which our specs rally around, similar to Crusader Strike and Judgement for paladins? Or should they remain MM-abilities-that-are-baseline-for-no-rational-reason?

/shrug

The more similar the specs, the more it’d feed the old (though heavily false) mantra that the specs were the same to start with, but the more different they are, the more it continues to drive a wedge between the specs and makes us really question why we even have these abilities baseline.

Again, Corruption. Already works that way.

By the same argument, though, how does it make sense for an ability to be a spender nuke for one spec and a generator for another? Kill Command already works that way, as does Execute. Like a cast time, those fundamentally alter the ability’s feel and rotational role, and yet that seems to be just fine.

…That’s what I was referring to? It causes the pet to deal damage, not the hunter, and then if re-used, doubles the pet’s damage for a period as well. I’m not sure what definition of “amp” you’re using, but doubling the pet’s damage seems like it obviously qualifies.

When your spammable spender is literally “makes my pet deal damage and buffs it”, ya, the pet is incredibly central. Honestly, not even BM or Unholy are as pet focused as that would be.

/shrug, can’t please everyone. Do you want it to have more pet importance than MM, or not? If so, Lone Wolf simply won’t work, because it by definition deletes the pet from relevance, unless it’s tuned to be useless, in which case why even have it? It’s not actually an option at that point.

If you want SV to have more pet to it than MM, no Lone Wolf. If you want Lone Wolf, you have to discard the “more pet focus” part. Frankly, I think this concept, without your Barbed Shot clone and also without Lone Wolf, is just fine on the pet important front.

The second effect is a bit odd. Feels like it should just be rolled into the first part. But otherwise seems relatively fine. Could also just be:

[Toxic Shot] (Replaces Cobra Shot, 6s CD, 2 charges, etc) - Fires a shot into the target, dealing X Nature damage and causing all of your damage over time effects to instantly deal 50% of their normal damage.

Notably, this would work with the above proposed DoT-focused mastery.

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I never really got a chance to play that spec as I’d just joined WOW at the very tail end of WoD. I wish there was a way to play test it now, after having a few expansions of experience. I really hope they do bring back a ranged survival, even if it’s by creating a 4th spec and calling it Ranger or something.

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Have made certain changes based on some things mentioned above.


Honestly, I’m not entirely opposed to this(there are so many fun things that can be done to further the theme/fantasy of the playstyle of RSV). Just that…I’m not sure where to put it^^

There are quite a few passive effects already and I’m also hesitant to remove an existing talent for something like this. Perhaps it could be enough to add it in as a secondary effect to/part of the talent [Predator](Still unsure about that name as well :confused: ).

True, but something like Lone Wolf is arguably an easy way to please quite a few players who have little to no interest in playing with pets, but rather want to focus solely on the ranged aspects of the class(+ traps or other).

And honestly, I’d much rather keep it as an option because of that, especially as it is already a part of the class.

I’ve changed the wording in the “tooltip” of that talent(seen in the OP). Also with a slight change to the design.

But, why is it “odd”?

What?

Sure, and that’s fine. My point was, you can’t keep Lone Wolf and also try to make the pet matter more for the spec. It’s one or the other, the two are mutually exclusive.

Just felt odd to deal a percentage of damage, but then also buff damage from the same source. Why not just do a higher percentage of damage in the first place?

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That depends on how you decide to look at it. The parts where you could focus more on the pet were entirely optional(just like Lone Wolf itself). Pick them or don’t.

But anyway, I agree with what you said about the limitations it had regarding Focus-management. So I removed it/them.

Because of the periodic effect which is applied at the same time. This design allows you to pick which ability you want to tie into the eruption, and the damage dealt is determined based on the strength of said ability, how much damage it deals in total. Both upfront and over time.

And it still allows for the freedom of you choosing when to use it, in case you need Focus earlier than expected, you can then follow it up with what might not be the optimal choice of a periodic damage-effect, but still has a sizeable benefit.