Community Council discussion on Hunter design

Classes Hunter
622

Well done water!

I will have my generic tree AND a surv tree ready for you to look at for ideas here in the next day or so. I would like to see you post them on cc and alpha so they reach blizz and hopefully fix many issues with surv.

However, after reading your initial notes, i do want to suggest being a bit more critical about some of the things on the trees. For instance, you mention how traps are situated yet you dont clarify that most people want nesingwary’s gone. So you offer insight but you dont offer suggestions.
I did like how you pointed out there is a little identity, which there is, however you didnt point out that there is zero direction in the tree. I did like how you pointed out issues with pitch points in the tree.
I hope your substantially more critical with msv. It has no identity, no direction, the tree is a mess, and is boring af.
Oh, also, you forgot to mention that the generic tree, and the spec tree are absolutely boring af. There is no excitement. Ive heard this across the hunter playerbase. Everyone goes to the other trees and are like wowwww, but then return to the hunter tree and are like ugh, then exit the window. This is especially true for msv.

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623

Thank you Watermist! Youre doing the Lords work for the Hunter community!!! Thanks for the Link in the Alpha forums! Hopefully the devs respond and meet your level of depth and length in kind!

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624

Keep on 'em!!

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625

Put a baby in me mist! Lol

626

Don’t worry, that is coming.

Generally, the way I tend to compose my posts is by starting out with the “facts” — things that’s plain to see, and not subjective. Hence why I started with the nodes — then I move onto the least “hot-button” thing I could (in this case, the question of whether Blizzard met their own goal of clear themes in each tree) before I come swinging out of the gate with the real hard-hitting stuff (the critical things).

So, I’m gonna write a similar post on BM and SV, and then I’ll make a post about the “miscellaneous” stuff I mentioned: Lone Wolf, lack of active talents for all trees especially SV, and the fact that the Hunter trees aren’t really exciting.

As a matter of fact, for that last thing I mentioned? I plan to cite some of the past things that Hunters used to have — exotic ammo (I could’ve gotten the name wrong), Powershot, Titanstrike, Windburst and the such.

If you guys don’t mind sharing with me what old ability Hunters used to have, and doesn’t exist anymore in retail and isn’t in DF, that you guys loved and miss, then please share with me! I can’t remember them all.

Also, I’m glad you guys are satisfied with the first half of my post. :slightly_smiling_face:

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627

#[Updated for Dragonflight] Munitions - If RSV was to return

You might find a thing or two in there, where there are abilities/effects that I would like to get back. :upside_down_face:

And no, I’m not here to start the debate back up. It just boggles ones mind how, after all the things they’ve said, both historically, as well as future design philosophies regarding the class, how they still haven’t brought the spec back for us. Not to mention how inconcistent they’ve been with how they applied their logic, and how they’ve judged class and spec design for hunters compared to other classes. My point of referense here is mostly from Legion and onwards.

The specific points of this have already been voiced before, where such inconcistencies, or fault of logic have occurred.

Also, thanks for linking to my topic on the hunter forum, regarding the class tree and Beast Mastery!

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628

Mist, i am working on a full new tree for surv and have one for the generic tree.

Ill post them again soon after revisions. There is plenty of amazing ideas you can pull from them to help blizz with the trees. Ghorak has seen my generic tree and states it is quite good.

629

I agree. I just cant see why blizz continues to stick something that has been and continues to be the ultimate failed spec. The tree proves it will continue to fail. Short of been cheap and lazy, i just dont know.

630

I would look at sidewinders, serpent spread, black arrow, instant or castable on the move aimed shot, old explosive shot and aspect of the fox

631

Problem with a more melee centered rotation is a lack of melee centered sustain and migation. Theres a reason why we we play a hybrid play style. We simply dont do well toe to toe with other melee for extended periods of melee engagement. Blizz would have to retool survs kit if we lose the ranged combat effectiveness. I simply dont see them doing that atm.

I’d rather have them focus on things that don’t add any value to the tree or existing problems, ex;

  • Binding Shackles is worthless in its current form
  • Nobody wants NTA in its current form
  • Bloodseeker has no real interaction with the spec.
  • Born to be Wild is underwhelming in its current form. Top end shld to 30% cdr.
  • Imp Tranq should be baseline
  • VV and Quick shot are terrible
  • WFI needs to move up and to the center of the tree. It should probably be a capstone imo.
  • Tying interactions to KC resets is terrible design, please stop.
  • Nobody will ever pick Energenic ally, explosive expert or intense focus in current form.
  • Sharp Edges is dramatically undervalued. Should be 10/20%.
  • have 2 multiple point capstones that dont do much but soak points.

Most of all;

  • More pet customization so we can pick a pet and tool it for the content we like to do.

This is something I posted from another thread. Sums up pretty much all my issues with the existing surv and hunter trees.

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632

That was a really fantastic post, Watermist, and I super appreciate the link to my post—very kind and unexpected. Aside from the things I cover in there, I actually think the Survival tree just needs a little tweaking and it will be in a really good spot. I’m aware that that may be an unpopular opinion here.

As for wanting more buttons, the aoe rotation is going to be pretty hectic as it is. With Wildfire Infusions basically baseline, Fury of the Eagle reducing the cd on bombs on crits, Kill Command resets reducing the cd on Fury of the Eagle, Carve/Butchery reducing the cd on Bombs and Flanking Strike, Serpent Sting spreading, likely with Raptor Strike and simultaneously popping Latent Poison stacks… and all of this before we get to active abilities chosen in the Class Tree—which admittedly I think will only be Explosive Shot for aoe situations. But the point is that having another ability that’s either just press on cd for damage or a maintenance buff/debuff that we have to spread on every target would be too much clutter, in my opinion.

The single target rotation is maybe a little bland, especially with the way the new Viper’s Venom works, where we’ll basically have 100% uptime on Serpent Sting just from Mongoose Bite spam. I do think that with Tip of the Spear and Mongoose Bite together, the Mongoose Fury windows are at least going to be more interesting, but I think that we really could’ve used some sort of Flanking Strike cd reduction in the single target rotation, not the aoe rotation. Additionally, Spearhead is something I’m incredibly excited for, and I hope that they keep the cd extension in a spot where it feels potent, but not Birds of Prey level 100% uptime. Even with the Death Chakram pick on single target, and even if Flanking Strike got some cdr to be used basically in every window, I do think the rotation could use something else.

One of the biggest points of interest remaining in the Survival tree for me centers on Explosives Expert. The Kill Shot proc mechanic has been taken out of the Survival spec tree, so what value does this really have outside of execute range—and in execute range, is this really valuable enough to be worth 2 talent points over say, 40% damage on Serpent Sting, Arcane Shot, and Kill Shot, for example?

So, what I would like to see is the Kill Shot proc added back into the tree, and I think there are several ways that Blizzard could do this pretty seamlessly:

  1. For the least amount of added active abilities, add the proc to Shrapnel Bomb’s bleed. Make the proc chance stack per stack of the bleed. This, with Explosives Expert, would speed up the aoe rotation following blue bombs, while adding in just one ability. This probably doesn’t give much to the single target rotation, and we probably wouldn’t want to cast the Kill Shot over a 5 stack Mongoose Bite, so perhaps compensate with “Kill Shot extends the duration of Mongoose Fury by 1.5 seconds.” And perhaps for added single target interaction, or even priority target/funnel interaction, you could have Kill Shot extend or refresh the bleed from Shrapnel Bomb on that target to maintain uptime in between Bomb cycles;
  2. Add Lacerate back in, and have it work like Flayed Shot. Give it a relatively high focus cost, and/or don’t make it do a ton of damage so that you won’t feel the need to spread it to every single mob in a 5-8 pack pull. Two or three targets should be the sweet spot, but one should feel good enough. Again for single target, I’d add some Kill Shot interaction with Mongoose Bite; or
  3. Add Chakrams back in (normal Chakrams, I was sad to see them go) have them apply a Flayed Shot type bleed to all targets, make it so that Kill Shot procs can stack to two. Could even make this a choice node with Lacerate and tune Chakrams to be the aoe choice and Lacerate to clearly excel in single target.

To summarize: let’s be very careful what we ask for. Asking for more active abilities for the sake of having more buttons to press is not quite the right approach, in my opinion. Let’s ask for more interactivity where it’s necessary. For the spec as a whole, Survival would benefit from reimplementation of the Kill Shot proc mechanic. The aoe rotation doesn’t need another button, but if it had to have one, something like Lacerate—tuned in such a way that maintaining it on two or three targets is optimal—or Chakrams, both applying a Flayed Shot type debuff would be good additions. The single target rotation could use another button, so again something like Lacerate—again applying a Flayed Shot type debuff, but more importantly, it could use a Flanking Strike cdr, and if it gets some sort of Kill Shot proc, it would likely need another node that makes Kill Shot interact with Mongoose Bite somehow like extending the Mongoose Fury window.

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633

Naw, the main problem is you have a bunch of fanbois and rExXaR wannabes up top telling blizz, if i recall the other day, that the spec is “near perfect” which is why they havent made very many changes lately… while all of us down here are screaming at blizz to scrap the crap and fix it.

But nope, just another xpansion of garbo msv being at the bottom for the 1% to pick up after they are done with progression to mess around with.

634

More I look at the surv tree the more Im thinking its design goal is inherently flawed. The way the it lays out is single target melee (with some pet stuff), aoe capability (other pet stuff) and a hodgepodge of talents trying to bring it together in the center. Its misses the essence of what most of us like about surv and the divides of what we like.

Some of us, like myself, love the dot/control melee/range aspect of it. Multi DoT with SS, Flayed Shot, WFB -->use traps and pet cc to control → then when its advantageous, get into melee range with our pet for big dmg. Most of us pvp this way.

Other ppl like the physical melee aspect of it. Chuck a bomb → get into melee with your pet → rip a bleed into 'em and start unleashing with FS/RS/MB/Butchery → Wear 'em down with aggression and finish with big hits from Fury of the Eagle. Thats more what the original msurv was like in Legion.

Then there’s the middle where players enjoyed a mix of different ways. Maybe some like muti doting but still like big st melee hits form MB/MF. Maybe others like physical melee style and enjoy Latent poisons ability to stack dmg on an off target.

In the end, I think dividing the tree into physical melee and range multi-doting capacity with the center bridging the two styles makes more sense than dividing it by aoe and st.

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635

I think the design of both the class and SV spec trees are set up specifically to prevent people from playing SV as ranged. You could almost fudge it depending on the artifical ranged/melee ability limitations and a couple of talents being moved this way or that. Left side should be ranged, middle utility/multitarget, right melee.

Edit: Just looking through some of the other class trees… Why do we have to talent into our interrupt? Same with Tar Trap? It’s weird that things that have been basic to the Hunter CLASS now require a talent to use. I understand why hybrid classes need to have a talent for interrupts (looking at you, Holy Pally) and why Lock has it as a talent (it was contingent on a specific pet) but Hunter? Why? There should only be a talent to get the focus back.

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636

Thank you Watermist.
A very well thought out, eloquent and well delineated post on Alpha Forums Hunter Feedback.
I Like how it even points to Other Classes suffering from the same General issues.

Looking forwards to the BM Critique.

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637

Thank You, Watermist!!

I can’t imagine how long that took but your efforts are very appreciated. I love that you started with simple clear facts and comparisons. It was needed.

You have no control over what happens with this information but at least it is being put in a place where we know it can be seen. Now we hope someone takes it seriously.

I am looking forward to the rest of your posts. However it turns out, you are definitely an MVP for hunters, in my opinion.

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638

Watermist- THANK YOU for your contributions for us in the Council threads!

One thing I randomly want a shout out for is BLINK STRIKES. Could come back as an active off the GCD or a passive. Easy quality of life feature for getting pets unstuck/across dodgy terrain to their targets.

I had some other ideas in a post- more focused on cool factor or comparable utility with other classes:

Also have been imagining something like a “Signal Horn” ability which grants temporary avoidance for allies and bonus movement speed toward a target bearing Hunter’s Mark for a short time. Thematically it seems cool and it’s kind of a HELL YEAH button push like when Stampede or Rallying Cry go off… Think Boromir blowing the Horn of Gondor scene from LOTR.

ANYWAY. Thanks again for reading through many pages of our griping, musing, & brainstorming and helping distill some of that out into digestible feedback.

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639

Thank you Watermist, you laid out the tree bloat argument wonderfully. Looking forward to what you say about BM tree.

My thoughts on BM tree;

Too many multi-point nodes means if I take them because I want them, get no end cap nodes.

Animal Companion - want to see this isolated out, mainly because you know Blizzard isn’t going to fix AC so it only impacts the 2nd pet. It’s position makes me wonder if that is how Blizzard expects a Dire build to play with AC tempering the damage because it’s a 35% reduction to all pets except the main pet.

Aspect of the Beast, Kindred Spirits, Training Expert, and Killer Command should all be 1 point nodes

Swap positions of Flamewalker’s and Cobra Senses, this moves 2 pointer down to 20 point tier and one pointer up into 8 point tier. It also allows easy skip of Flamewalkers which is a very MEH node.

Wild Call and One with the Pack don’t make much sense, tie up 4 points all to have a small chance to reset cooldown of Barbed Shot. These should be 1 point per if they stay.

Thrill of the Hunt, this should not be a 3 point node. Personally I don’t think 3 point node should exist in any talent tree for any class/spec. One point would be ideal.

Stomp should be 1 point.

The above removes seven 2 point nodes and one 3 point node. It allows more freedom in the over 20 tier. We still would have nine 2 point nodes and one 3 point node, for 29 points total in multiple point nodes which is much closer to the “sweet spot” for trees.

640

Yall already know what I am asking for.

Lacerate.

Kakaroth gets it. Put it back in. Bump the damage up from Legion numbers so that it acts as SV equivalent of Aimed Shot or Kill Command as the big spender. Then. Make it our flayed shot mechanic. Id also like to see a talent like Legions Mortal Strikes where Lacerate could give a free MB. Would help with ST and Mongoose Bite Windows.

Chakrams instead of Barrage. Thats a no brainer and one we would pick every time.

While I am at it.

Kill Command to reduce Flanking Strike Cooldown.

MM has a way to reduce Rapid Fire.
BM has a way to reduce Kill Command and Bestial Wrath.
SV has … Lol

Thanks Watermist! Id love to chat with you in game or on Discord to help with your message about SV as would some others I would assume.

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641

Pet spec selection. Not even talking about talent trees here because Blizz can’t get our tree right to begin with so adding pet trees would be impossible.

This season is one of the more restrictive seasons where I need a lust pet that also has mortal wounds. It means I need to run one of 3 pet families, out of all the available options I get to pick 3 that meet both those criteria. If they opened up pet specs a bunch of mortal wounds families also get opened up because I could swap them to also bring hero.

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