Blizzard will never admit that Survival rework is a failure

Who said that? If it’s not in world first races that means it’s failed spec?

It’s in good spot. Make it better and it will overthrow other specs in a hearth beat. I always pick SV hunter for high keys , it has nice control, nice damage and even in ST damage it’s not bad. Especially if it’s Kyrian hunter. I saw hunter in +15 hiring 10K with balance druid in group pulls.

In next patch SV is getting nice buffs , it’s 15% damage increase to Single target attacks. Other classes are getting some nerfs so it brings some balance. If you think class should be ranged you have two ranged specs , already as hunter so didn’t bother with something you don’t play or like

You simply can’t ignore a spec that you don’t play and leave it to people who enjoy it. You have to say it on every post together with that beepe and lvl 10 orc?
You and other max lvl hunter got out dps by other hunters in M+ So shhhh. Let people enjoy the spec. I can’t thank enough to God and blizzard for not listening to forum comments like yours regard hunters

Who hunts with a hatchet or sword? I’ll grant a spear, but the method by which those were used is wildly different than what you’re imagining, I’d wager. Persistence hunting doesn’t exactly translate to a playable archetype, i.e., chasing something until it’s tired and then stabbing it with a stick. Further, the dudes that did that (IF they actually did it) did it in groups. I’m basing my interpretation on the archetype that Blizzard laid out in 2005, and stuck with for like a decade.

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Mountain men use hatchets. Think something akin to Grizzly Adams. And a sword can be synonymous with a machete. Persistence hunting totally translates to wow IE outlasting your prey SURVIVING then stabbing them with your stick.

How do they use those hatchets? Do they track prey and then get into a scrum with them?

They hit them with it?

Go to google. Look up hunting hatchet. You can even look up the one from rdr2. I mean if you’re gonna say smacking an enemy melee range doesn’t fit the fantasy neither does throwing a trap at their face.

I liked having dot management and fast paced reactionary gameplay along with the rest of the hunter toolkit (pets, traps, and high mobility). To me, the old spec fit well with my idea of being an arcane archer, someone who specifically infuses their shots with various kinds of magic to rend their enemies apart from afar while controlling the flow of battle.

Would be my take on the idea, though the post should be updated at some point. If you’re less inclined to the magic take on things, I would recommend Ghorak’s idea instead.

To me, the gameplay that I enjoyed no longer exists, and thematically the two ranged specs we do have don’t fill a niche that I think SV could have easily have filled if they thought it was too similar to MM at the time.

The base class itself is fundamentally very different from the warlock IMO. I think there’s only so many damage profiles you can realistically have (consistent / burst / dots which sort of fall under consistent).

The same was not extended to the old spec and its players. But I don’t think Dawn was attacking SV there. A lot of us would much prefer a 4th spec to avoid the same mistakes Legion made.

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I won’t disagree with that. On the other hand, I’m not pulling items from another game to justify using melee weapons in WoW. So there’s that.

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There is no need for 4th spec at all. Legion needed artifact weapon for SV hunter, and they didn’t wanted to make another bow or crossbow, they went back to Spear hunting.

In many mythology’s hunters are referred people that hunt and not always with bow or rifle. It’s limited mindset today’s internet generation that thinks hunter needs a rifle to be a hunter. A little bit of the topic.

Regard to dawn she/he is crying on forums how his/her vision of players base that this it should be 4th spec is majority.

Hunters are not in need for 4th spec. Legion made survival how it should be at first place how they imagined , but lacked the he balance back then. I mean not only SV hunter, paladins where running in pink dress and turban to heal, cause for anything else they where useless. Like many other specs or classes.

As a huge fan of RSV, I agree I’d be super excited. Showing my age here but WOTLK SV was wayyyyy ahead of it’s time and it was very fun to play.

Having said that, if it underperforms in raid and keys, I wouldn’t play it as I would be letting my whole team down by playing the underperforming spec/build.

(but I’d still be happy it’s back!)

Somewhat agree with you. If RSV was to return (big if) and it was underperforming in all content, it will sit in the same position as MSV, on the bench, however it will have a larger player base.

If the devs really do a rework, I highly doubt it’ll be a half baked rework, like melee survival conversion we’ve experienced for the past 3 expansions.

I think we fundamentally disagree. I think there is room for the current spec. I think what happened to the old spec was wrong and set a terrible precedent.

The current spec is staying melee according to Ion. How long will that last? Until he changes his mind? Until the next lead dev steps up to the plate?

The major problem I have with the initial Legion rework beyond taking away my favorite playstyle (both in gameplay and thematic appeal) is that it set the precedent that Blizz can and will remove a spec if they want to add something new in, regardless of whether the player base thinks it makes sense or if they even like it.

The reason I argue for a fourth spec rather than deleting the current spec is for multiple reasons. The first, I think what happened to the old players was wrong and should not be repeated. The second is that a fourth spec acts as an admission, that making that sort of choice and pushing players away is not a good idea and should not be repeated again.

Okay? I’m not against the current spec, so I’m confused why you feel the need to bring that up, or why you’re blaming anyone for their disagreement?

We definitely disagree here but ignoring whatever the original intent was, I think the class history and what the players actually want and enjoyed from the class is far more important than whatever the original devs thought for the spec. I think that’s further shown through the 12 years of development that pushed it further and further to ranged until Legion.

The fact here is, Mavailo, we can have our cake and eat it too in this instance. We can keep the current spec and bring something back that will make a ton of players happy. Even if you don’t think it’ll be a lot, I’d wager it would at least be about 5% of hunters which has been enough to justify current SV, right?

I don’t think there is a good reason not to add a fourth spec, and that arguing against it arguing for the more likely option of melee being removed down the road at some point instead. I think a 4th spec is the most pragmatic approach to the situation.

Edit: You’re probably right about one thing in your post though.

I don’t think we have a majority yet. I think the majority of hunters would rather it see it deleted, and I think that’s flat out wrong.

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Ignoring the strawman, what we’re actually saying is that if they take a very popular spec, remake it, and then it ends up being a very unpopular spec, it’s a failure.

Even most Survival Hunters admit it’s not in a good spot so this is just straight-up delusion.

It’s single target damage is rubbish; among the worst in the game, in fact. You can see this if you look at Shriekwing, Hungering Destroyer, and Sludgefist logs. For example, on Sludgefist the top MM Hunter is at 8.9k and the top SV Hunter is at 7.1k; that’s a >20% difference. I actually personally have better parses on that fight than the best Survival Hunter parse and we never do parse raids.

It’s AoE is actually good but MM is capable of better burst AoE and burst is almost always a better damage profile; that’s why you see MM being brought to higher keys instead of SV. SV has just 16 players above 2k IO with the highest being 2385. Meanwhile there are over 1,000 MM Hunters above 2k IO with the highest being 3059. In fact there are over 50 MM Hunters that are higher than the best SV Hunter. Your anecdotal evidence might favour SV but the objective data substantially favours MM. Speaking of your anecdotes; you say you do high level keys including +15 with SV Hunters yet your account doesn’t have the timed +15 achievement. Kind of sus if you ask me.

And it used to be 3 specs. It should have remained as such.

Hunters were defined as a ranged class because they started with ranged weapons. It doesn’t make sense for one of the specs to not be using a ranged weapon. Specs are meant to build off the base class; not take away from it.

This respect wasn’t offered to ranged Survival when it was unceremoniously removed as melee players cheered it on, and that spec was far more widely enjoyed and respected. So why should it be offered to melee Survival?

SV was not meant to be melee in Classic. The tree was meant to offer melee bonuses but this did not mean you stuck to melee combat or even deliberately ran into melee. The class started off with a ranged weapon and back then >80% of your playstyle and identity was in the base class; specs were just meant to enhance specific parts of the base toolkit. SV was meant to be the PvP spec so you held up better when players got you stuck in melee range. In other words, the melee bonuses were intended for situational usage.

Arguing that SV was originally meant to fight in melee relies on misunderstanding Classic class design and the purpose and intent of specs.

It would look more like BM; underplayed, but not nearly as severely. We can see this from tiers like Blackrock Foundry where despite being underpowered it was pulling in 3k parses per week even at the end of the tier on the eve of the huge 6.2 nerfs. Meanwhile SV is currently pulling in like 500 parses a week, and that’s in an era where way more people are using warcraftlogs.

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As far as the M+ implications go, MM having better burst being the reason it gets taken over SV isn’t even the case. comparing 2 players geared appropriately in SV and MM in a 1 minute burst on we’ll 7 target survival wins there. Survival however currently isn’t taken to high keys for the simple fact that it’s too squishy to just sit and face tank certain things such as shards on Halls of Atonement. where a survival hunter has to dedicate Aspect of the eagle to avoid being globaled by the first thrash, it then has no cooldown for the 2nd or 3rd. Meanwhile, Because of MM’s Mastery, they can just outrange it without much thought on how to deal with. there’s various other frontals or dangerous melee mechanics throughout the shadowlands dungeons that give it a difficult time. Community perception and hyper focus on what is meta damages anyones ability to play Survival in any competitive atmosphere without being ridiculed and bullied out of the spec. Additionally:

  • Reverting MSV back to RSV would create the exact same animosity for the people that enjoy its current iteration to the version that you love so much Bepples, and others like you.
  • You can hardly call the rework failed without it ever getting any real effort or help considering situations like how the serpent sting ability was bugged with a wonky haste interaction. Other Bugs exist for the spec that have given it trouble since Shadowlands release such as: Bombs not working on echoes in p1 of sire Denathrius as well as weird interactions such as the interaction you get with Bron’s Call to Action where only Serpent Sting, Raptor Strike and Carve are calculated as “damaging abilities.”

Has Survival been a glowing success? Absolutely not. But its hardly received the work that it needs to even be given the opportunity to be successful. The Mastery needs to be reworked. Ideally more impactful cooldowns and genuine feedback to help it move forward. I’ve heard alot from the players i’ve gotten to give the spec a try that it’s a load of fun to play. We just need to help developers take that in a direction that is helpful for the intention of the spec.

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I would imagine it would be all three plus others.

We talk about this like the entire premise isn’t ridiculous. It’s been 5 years and the funny thing is that MSV players aren’t trying to convince you the change to melee was the right call 5 years ago.

But the spec is fun, needs a few tweaks like any spec, and has a good group albeit small that love it.

The part that’s pathetic is that you got dumped 5 years ago, your in another relationship, and you’re still whimpering in public for your old gf. And WE are the jerks because we think you should move on.

“Well what if Blizzard gave us a fourth spec then we could have both?”. This fool is bringing out the original manual from 15 years ago. LOOK GUYS IT SAYS RIGHT HERE WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE RANGED.

ROFLMAO… I just imagine you going to your first crush with a middle school picture. She all married with kids and ish. LOOK SARA!!! WE WERE SO HAPPY!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAA

I don’t think those who like the spec are jerks for liking it at all. I actively encourage players to play it of they enjoy it or any other spec for that matter. I do think being told to “get over it” isn’t particularly useful though.

I am genuinely curious, why shouldn’t we ask for what we want without you know, treading on the shoes of those who enjoy the current spec?

Okay.

You and Beppe boy wanna sound so smart by writing a whole book , quoting words and still are completely wrong.

Sv hunter will stay melee unless they go back to classic style equipment where you can wield melee and ranged weapon, and that is because artifact weapon appearance.

So in few words I proved you both wrong, and Beppe boy is so bad in raising SV hunter did 1.3K more dps

I don’t though.

I genuinely hope you’re right.

I don’t think you actually did.

Seriously, I’m not out to get you or anyone else man. I was not attacking you, nor have I attacked anyone in this thread. My concern goes beyond what I want, I actively want to maintain the current SV too. Which, I fear given the precedent I mentioned earlier, may not last like you think it will.

The numbers don’t add up to warrant not upsetting the whole 12 MSV players vs. restoring a much desired 3rd ranged, and dare I say, competitive (if reworked appropriately) spec to the hunter class.

I’m okay with the whole 0 survival hunters I know being upset.

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Because of few reasons
-it had multiple talent choices in all three talent trees or better to say SV/MM kind a what we have today in form of Mm
Hunter
-tier sets that focused on special spell or gave some needed boost
-it was viable for few expansions as a meta cutting spec
-trade mark of SV hunter was explosive shot and you have it now in MM spec. Basically what SV used to be two specs in one
I never saw someone complaining so much about a spec when in reality hunters who where serious raiders played BM hunter in TBC, MM/BM in WoTLk, SV only in Dragon Soul raid , MoP was 3v3 and 5v5 arena annoying fly , and in WoD was nah ok maybe depends.
Problem in legion was literally huntards who are limited like Home Depot credit card , and can’t understand how can hunter be melee. Out of sudden SV was the best spec and why it was removed.

Spec has it flaws even now, and like I said unless they add vanilla weapon equip style where you can have ranged and melee weapon, it won’t go back to ranged (neither it should) it’s because artifact weapon and lore. Yea, and neither do hunters need 4th spec. Cry more bye bye all of You expert hunters here

Would change nothing.

Look at the other 3spec range dps classes. In no world will a weaker spec be more popular than the top one, so unless rsv was top dps, it would still not be that popular.