Survival vote?

entrapment, serpent spread, explosive trap proc lock and load, more mobile than MM, not tied to pet like BM, bypass armor in pvp

7 Likes

But you have to admit, that’s not enough for a spec separate from Melee Surv and BM and MM. 3 passives and mobility? WoW is a different game than it was in 5.0 and spec identity means as much as class identity does.

It makes much more sense to put the limited resources on class design towards a mail-based healer/tank spec than a 4th DPS Hunter spec that re-uses 3/4ths of the abilities of the rest of its class.

They overlapped with each other because they were all Hunters. Things like Kill Shot, Serpent Sting, and Arcane Shot were basic things that came with the class. Two of those still come with the class and Survival actually has access to all of them even as a melee spec. The notion that every spec needed to be a totally separate entity that share little to nothing is a newer one, and one that’s largely been abandoned in Shadowlands. Specs ideally should share enough to be meaningful extensions of their baseline classes and differ enough to offer unique experiences. I think MoP and WoD did achieve that, and Legion made some really bad decisions because they sacrificed so much of the class in order to chase uniqueness.

Serpent Sting would become SV only in WoD among other spec-specific changes, and then even BM and MM underwent massive changes going into Legion which would have made them unrecognisable from any hypothetical ranged SV. So evidently having 3 ranged specs isn’t an insurmountable obstacle to having 3 unique specs. Mages and Warlocks do it just fine, after all. This is the mistake melee Survival fans keep making: it’s not enough to prove that the three ranged specs were too similar. It also has to be demonstrated how making Survival melee was a good solution, let alone the optimal one. Because let’s be honest: by making Survival melee they invited a whole host of far worse and more pressing issues than being a little too similar to the other Hunter specs, and they arguably didn’t even fix that given how much SV currently copies straight from BM.

It amounted to a different identity and playstyle. Ranged SV was more mobile yet more focused on rotting the target down with damage over time. It fit neatly into the aspect of Hunters that’s about use of utility and kiting. MM was far more focused on huge, sudden bursts of damage from far like a true sniper, and Beast Mastery was all about companionship and cooperation with the pets. This was a very good model for the Hunter class because it started with a basic and sensible foundation and builds on that. Current Survival fails to amount to that because it nonsensically throws away a core part of the class.

Because for other people the priority is ensuring everyone gets to play what they want and that’s admirable. That’s a hell of a lot more respect and consideration than what was offered to ranged Survival players.

But I agree that it would largely be infeasible to have 4 unique Hunter specs. That’s why, to be blunt, Survival should be reworked into a ranged spec. Yes, that would upset some people, but if there’s going to be melee in the Hunter class there needs to be a far better compromise than devoting an entire third of it to something catering to maybe 1/20 of its players at best. Notice how most of the time people tread on eggshells around melee Survival, either suggesting a 4th spec or just clumsily cramming everything from ranged Survival into Marksmanship talents and calling it a day. Ultimately it needs to be realised that very few people enjoy melee Survival and even among the people who do play it very few of them are there specifically for the melee combat, so it makes zero sense to be making a compromise so drastically in favour of melee players.

So what should be done is this: Survival should be ranged and it should have hand-picked elements of ranged Survival (e.g. Explosive Shot and Lock and Load) and the current Survival (e.g. Wildfire Bomb). Beast Mastery should have a talent that converts ranged shots to melee strikes in exchange for a damage boost. For example, Barbed Shot to Lacerate, Cobra Shot to Raptor Strike, Counter Shot to Muzzle, Multi-Shot to Carve, and Barrage to Butchery. This would create that savage melee “Rexxar” beast master for those who want that specific fantasy. It would actually solve multiple problems at once because now you wouldn’t have a melee Survival spec awkwardly combining ripoff BM abilities with stuff that doesn’t fit melee or pet companionship at all like Wildfire Bomb and Serpent Sting.

No, it doesn’t. Class identity is the most important part. It’s far more preferable to have specs that are too similar to one another than too different, and there’s plenty of space in the Hunter class for a triple ranged spec setup. We had that before Legion and it was fine that way, and those 3 specs diverged and evolved every expansion.

It makes sense to put the limited resources into making Survival ranged and making a talented BM melee stance as I detailed above. Because Blizzard has already wasted far too much time and effort on trying to make melee Survival work.

9 Likes

how does that make more sense? they could literally copy the entire baseline spec. they have 4 xpacs worth of talent trees, glyphs, tier set bonuses to copy from too.

compared to remaking survival twice in a row after legion flopped i think it would be extremely easy. also if overlapped abilities are a problem, even though current SV shares serp sting, bestial wrath, kill command, etc. then you could just reskin it as a dark ranger spec if you wanted.

5 Likes

Do you ever run out of new alts to post from?

Anyway, that’s not an insult. It was simply an observation of what someone said regarding a playstyle, what said individual mentioned, does not in any way hold up.

Besides, considering what you usually post, this is beyond ironic.

2 Likes

Like Bepples said, it’s only a matter of taking 2 talents from MM that doesn’t fit the main theme of that spec anyway. The rest that was/could be RSV, considering what their philosophies are in the current game, is perfectly fine for a separate spec.

The thing about that era is that the specs shared things such as talents, by intent. It was what they intended with class design at the time. Using modern philosophies to evaluate past design is pointless. Especially since the intent is not to bring back RSV exactly as it was, but instead take the old core and add things such as new talents, etc. to make it fit within the modern game.

Except that both RSV and BM shared Cobra Shot, again, by intent of design, the entire core of RSV was its own.

#[Updated for Dragonflight] Munitions - If RSV was to return

As for the rest of RSV, as a modern version, it could look something like this(not perfect for everyone ofc, but it’s a concept).

It would share the following with one or several other hunter specs:

  • Cobra Shot with BM, which was always the case in the past as well.
  • Serpent Sting with MM and SV, was originally a class-wide ability, the main focus of RSV was to focus more on improvements to the use of animal venom.
  • Multi-Shot with BM and MM, was always class-wide in the past.
  • Lone Wolf with MM, again, something that was given to both specs at the same time, when it was introduced in WoD. Why? Any spec that does not have a theme centered around pets(like BM and current SV) should have access to Lone Wolf, for the sake of catering to player preferences.

Like with several of the examples mentioned above, all specs would obviously share anything that is designed to be class-wide. Base utility, traps, Arcane Shot, Kill Shot, etc.


Any numbers mentioned are only here to provide further depth to the concept and are ofc subject to change.


Core Abilities

[Cobra Shot] - Instant cast
A quick shot causing X Physical damage.

Generates 7 Focus.

[Explosive Shot] - 20 Focus - Instant cast - 10 sec recharge - 2 charges
Fire an explosive charge into the enemy target, dealing Fire damage. The charge will blast the target every second for an additional 4 sec.

[Black Arrow] - 30 Focus - Instant cast - 30 sec cooldown
Fire a shot infused with dark energy at the target, dealing Shadow damage over 12 sec.

The periodic damage-effect applied by Black Arrow can be stacked up to 3 times on the same enemy.

[Serpent Sting] - 15 Focus - Instant cast
Fire a shot that poisons your target, causing them to take Nature damage over 15 sec.

[Arcane Shot] - 20 Focus - Instant cast
A quick shot that causes X Arcane damage.

[Multi-Shot] - 40 Focus - Instant cast
Fires several missiles, hitting up to 5 targets within 8 yards of your current target for X Physical damage.

Multi-Shot applies Serpent Sting to all targets hit.

[Immolation Trap] - Instant cast - 1 minute cooldown
Hurls a fire trap to the target location that will burn the first enemy to approach for X Fire damage over 20 sec. Trap will exist for 1 min.

Class-wide abilities

[Kill Shot] - 10 Focus - Instant cast - 10 sec recharge - 1 Charge
You attempt to finish off a wounded target, dealing X Physical damage.

Only usable on enemies with less than 20% health.

Major Cooldown

[Munition Tactics] - 20 sec duration - 2 minute cooldown.
Increases your haste by X% and instantly triggers Lock & Load(Passive). When Explosive Shot is used during Munition Tactics, this resets the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow.

Any time Explosive Shot deals damage to a target affected by Black Arrow, during Munition Tactics, this will cause the periodic damage effect applied by Black Arrow to spread to nearby enemies as well.
(This effect is replaced by a different passive effect when engaged in instanced PvP; If your Black Arrow is at any time dispelled or otherwise removed from an enemy target, this instantly resets the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow.)

Mastery

[Mastery Bonus: Toxicology] - Increases all non-physical damage dealt by X%, based on Mastery.

Passive Effects

[Lone Wolf] - Increases your damage by 10% when you do not have an active pet.

[Lock and Load] - Periodic damage dealt by Black Arrow and Immolation Trap have a chance to cause your next Explosive Shot to cost no Focus and trigger no cooldown.

[Trap Mastery] - Tar Trap now slows approaching enemies by an additional X%, and the effect sticks to the enemy for 3 seconds after they have left the tar.

The trigger radius as well as the radius of the effect on your Tar Trap is increased by 25%.

Freezing Trap can now be triggered manually by the hunter once placed, causing it to form a fragile Ice Block that you can stand behind to protect yourself from frontal attacks until shattered. The ice block shatters after 8 seconds or once it has sustained enough damage.
Manually triggering it requires you to stand in close vicinity to the trap.

[Serpent’s Focus] - Using Cobra Shot several times in a row will increase the amount of Focus generated by each shot by 4. Stacking up to 3 times.

[Serpent Spread] - Targets hit by Multi-Shot are also afflicted by Serpent Sting equal to 9 sec of it’s duration.

[Exotic Munitions] - Your Auto Attacks have a chance to increase the remaining duration of either Serpent Sting, Black Arrow or Immolation Trap by 5 seconds, on an enemy affected by either of these periodic damage effects.

Utility/defensives

Includes all other abilities, such as [Tar Trap][Frost Trap][Aspect of the Turtle][Concussive Shot][Counter Shot][Tranquilizing Shot][Misdirection][Pet Utility][Exhilaration][Disengage][Feign Death], and more.

Note that I would prefer if(on a class-wide basis)

[Posthaste] - becomes a baseline effect.
[Master’s Call] - becomes a baseline ability again.
[Pet Specializations] - Ferocity, Tenacity, and Cunning, if they were changeable again.
[Revive Pet] - Cast time brought down to 2 seconds again.
[Camouflage] - becomes a baseline ability again.

Talents

– Level 15 –

[Ever Burning] - If you fire Explosive Shot into an enemy already affected by a previous charge, the remaining duration of the previous charge is refreshed as well as increased by an additional 3 seconds.

An active charge can only have a max duration of 9 seconds.

Exotic Munition-procs now also increases the remaining duration of any active Explosive Shot charges you have on the current target by 3 seconds.

[Noxious Stings] - Increases the periodic critical damage of your Explosive Shot, Serpent Sting, and Black Arrow by 25%, and Serpent Sting now deals increased damage against targets below 30% health.

[Fusion Shot] - (Replaces Cobra Shot) - 1.5s cast time(castable while moving) - 6 sec recharge - 2 Charges
Fire a charged shot into the target, dealing Physical damage.

When your next ability that deals periodic damage hits the target, this triggers a volatile fusion immediately causing it to erupt dealing additional instant damage equal to 40% of it’s total duration. The target will take additional damage of the same type as the ability used to trigger the fusion for the next 12 sec.

Generates 25 Focus.

– Level 25 –

[Death Adder] - Serpent Sting also does instant damage equal to 30% of it’s total periodic effect. Also applies to Serpent Spread(Passive).

Every time Serpent Sting deals damage, you have a chance to gain 3 Focus.

If the passive effect “Exotic Munitions” procs while your Serpent Sting is active on the target, this also triggers the Death Adder-effect.

[Predator] - Casting Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, Serpent Sting, or Multi-Shot reduces the Focus cost and increases the damage of your next Arcane Shot by 30%. This effect stacks.

[Viper Venom] - Whenever Serpent Sting deals damage, there’s a chance that this can cause any other periodic damage effects you have applied to the target to instantly deal damage equal to one tick of their total effect.

If this proc occurs when the target is affected by Black Arrow, this will instantly refresh it’s remaining duration and restore 8 Focus back to you.

– Level 30 –

[Trailblazer] - [Natural Mending]

[Bestial Dicipline] - (Replaces Camouflage as a talent choice) - While your pet is active, you and your pet(s) regenerate X% of total health every 3 sec. Healing done to you and your pet(s) is increased by X%.

Damage taken by your pet(s) is reduced by 15%.

When Lone Wolf(Passive) is active, you continue to heal for the same amount of health.

– Level 35 –

[Cluster Shot] - 25 Focus - Instant cast - 15 sec cooldown.
Fire a shot which explodes on impact, instantly dealing Physical damage to the primary target and all other nearby enemies, and causing them to bleed for an additional X Physical damage over 3 sec.

Explosive Shot-charges which are still active on any target(s) hit by Cluster Shot will instantly erupt, dealing all remaining damage to the affected target(s) at once.

[Wildfire] - 8 sec duration
The periodic damage effect applied by Immolation Trap will now spread to any enemy standing in close range to an already burning target. As long as an enemy is within range of another enemy affected by Wildfire or Immolation Trap, the Wildfire will continue to spread.

[T.N.T.] - Explosive Shot now deals damage to all enemies near the affected target.

– Level 40 –

[Born to be Wild] - [Binding Shot]

[Adaption] - (Replaces Posthaste as a talent choice) Getting hit with an incapacitating effect(Stun/Fear), reduces the remaining cooldown of your Aspect of the Turtle by 30%. This effect has an internal cooldown of X sec.

Aspect of the Turtle is now usable when incapacitated.

When rooted or slowed, the remaining cooldown of Aspect of the Cheetah is reduced by 15 seconds. Aspect of the Cheetah frees you from movement impairing effects and you cannot be slowed below 100% movement speed while it’s active.

– Level 45 –

[Spitting Cobra] - Cobra Shot now deals an additional X% damage as Nature damage and extends the remaining duration of Serpent Sting on the enemy target by X sec.

Cobra Shot now has a high chance of generating double Focus when fired.

  • [Exothermia] (Requires talent: Fusion Shot)
    Increases your critical strike chance against any enemy you hit with Fusion Shot by X% for 12 sec. Dealing Fire damage to the target extends this effect even further.
    Fusion Shot generates an additonal 10 Focus over 5 sec.

[Pre-Heat] - The cooldown of Immolation Trap is reduced by 5 seconds every time Immolation Trap deals critical damage to the enemy target. In addition, if an enemy target dies while affected by Immolation Trap, it’s cooldown is reset.

[Intoxication] - Your ranged Auto Attacks have a chance to grant you 2 stacks of Intoxication. When Black Arrow is refreshed or when it expires from an enemy, you gain this effect as well.

  • Intoxication
    When you use an ability that deals instant damage, it has a 100% chance to be a critical strike.
    When you use an ability that deals periodic damage, damage caused by this ability is increased by an additional X%.

– Level 50 –

[Rapid Recuperation] - Damage caused by Explosive Shot have a chance to reduce the remaining cooldown of Munition Tactics by 1 sec.

Whenever Lock & Load procs, this causes the next Explosive Shot fired to have a 100% chance for each of it’s ticks to reduce the remaining cooldown of Munition Tactics by 1 sec.

Catalysis - Duration 10 sec.
Black Arrow increases any Fire-damage you deal to an enemy by X%.

In addition, Explosive Shot-charges granted by Lock & Load extend the remaining duration of Black Arrow by 1 second every time they deal damage to the affected target.

[Resourcefulness] - Reduces the cooldown of all traps and Black Arrow by 20%. Your Freezing Trap and Tar Trap both have a 100% chance to proc Lock & Load when triggered.

Freezing Trap when triggered manually can now withstand 100% more damage before shattering.

When an enemy breaks free from your Freezing Trap, they will take an additional 10% damage from all sources for the next X seconds.

Critical damage dealt by Immolation Trap is increased by X%.

Bonus effects/Bonus Traits

Got no good names for these traits/bonuses yet but…just wanted to add in some potential fun bonus effects that are spec specific. They can be tied to things such as Set Bonuses or something similar to Artifact Traits/Azerite Traits of the past.

(1) Lock and Load now grants 2 charges of Explosive Shot when it procs, instead of 1.

(2) When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc. It will grant you an additional bonus effect depending on which periodic damage-effect it benefits.

Serpent Sting - Until the current Serpent Sting debuff expires or is refreshed, every time it deals damage to the target, you instantly gain 3 Focus.

Black Arrow - The remaining cooldown of Black Arrow is instantly reset.

Immolation Trap - Your next Immolation Trap will deal an extra X% damage and will also have an increased X% chance to critically hit the affected target.

(3) Arcane Shot now triggers the passive effect “Exotic Munitions” when it hits an enemy target.


4 Likes

I like survival hunter. :cowboy_hat_face:

1 Like

This is pretty on point tbh

Why make a 4th spec to bring back heavily dated gameplay when Demon Hunter still has 2 specs lol

Yes I agree, Bring back TBC Enhance.

No.

You’ve reported posts for far less and accuse anyone who posts anything even remotely similar of personal attacks. I’ve lost count of the number of times you’ve accused MSV players of doing nothing but name calling and instigating fights. It’s cute though that you’re attempting to pretend that wasn’t an insult.

Your hypocrisy is grand.

Please do provide one example of when I’ve done this, one that’s similar to the above…

I’ve never even mentioned the words “name calling”. Ever. Nor have I ever said the things you accuse me of there.

But yes, a lot of MSV hunters(in these discussions) do tend to prefer making pointless arguments with nothing to back them up whatsoever. Again, though, I’ve never said that this is all that they do.

But by all means, keep making things up.

Again, I said that, based on the things he/she was saying, it seemed as if they had no clue what they were talking about, when it comes to the history of RSV.

In what world is that considered an insult?

4 Likes

These threads never go anywhere. It just turns into the same Ranged SV fans arguing with and insulting other people.

All over a dated spec that has no place in the game today

4 Likes

The irony of you saying this, considering which topic we’re in. Heck, literally the first reply in this topic is saying that what RSV fans want shouldn’t happen, and that it’s enough to just add a few random ranged elements to current SV.

And then, ofc, Toxic/Metroid join in with his usual agenda of trolling all RSV fans.

Considering all these discussions, when you say something like this, you come off as nothing but ignorant.

4 Likes

There’s no need to be hostile and angry

You can play old SV when Wrath Classic comes out

1 Like

My favorite part is that even the MSV advocates have flat out admitted that just converting MSV to ranged with a talent or something wouldn’t work because everyone would just choose that talent… LMAOOO

I’m still be fine with MSV staying for those that enjoy it, I don’t want others to lose a spec that they enjoy. I just want the spec that I enjoyed to come back, albeit as a 4th spec.

This has nothing to do with this discussion and isn’t a very good argument, tbh.
ALL demon hunters learned from Illidan. And both demon hunter specs take inspiration from him, as Illidan uses a mix of both spec’s abilities. There’s no reason for demon hunters to get a 3rd spec full of stuff no one has ever seen, when all the DHs learned everything from Illidan.

5 Likes

To be fair, there is also no reason to bring Ranged SV back

To be fair, yes there is.
It was a well established spec for years, until the legion rework.
It has been requested to return ever since the legion rework by many, many players.

8 Likes

Are you serious right now?
You’re saying DHs are unable to develop new techniques themselves?

Unlike you, some of us want to see Survival be a successful spec and we know the best way to achieve that :slight_smile:

9 Likes

You have openly insulted melee players on the forums just for playing melee and stood by it.

Keep that up and you won’t achieve anything in this community.

2 Likes