Right here, effectively, as the only things that were ever “rolled up into marks” were Explosive Shot and Black Arrow, both magical. If such has forced a need for a minor rework by which to shift MM away from that rolling up of magical attacks, one would normally assume you want MM to have… fewer magical attacks, as if such were somehow contrary to its theme.
Scorpid and Viper are both gone from PvE now so any attempt to re-add Chimaera in the place of either, not thus draining MM of most of its magical elements, would be solely wilted lip-service in comparison to any “old MM” version thereof, so unless you were to develop entirely new forms of magic damage for the spec, which likewise not be “old MM”, yeah… it would seem like your idea of MM is framed heavily predominantly just on it not being whatever you categorically see as SV.
I keep reading about this 4th spec. Please advise what would RSV or rather the NEW RSV would have that would make it different from MSV or MM ?
Blizz would not just say ok , SV can always be at range but have the same spells as MSV. What would it be to make it a different spec ? A different feel ? This whole thing began because MM and SV seemed the same but just with different spells and talents. So what would make it different ?
To very few players and Ion. But let’s be clear, Blizz thematically doesn’t seem to care if they are similar despite saying that since many players view BM and SV being similar now.
The two weren’t similar at all mate. But there’s a few detailed posts with variations of what an updated RSV for modern gameplay could look like. Obviously I don’t think Ghorak or myself would expect blizz to solely use those ideas or any final idea to look like either of those.
Though I never played a mage, I am quite sure frost and fire plays differently. At the time when SV was range, it played like MM. BM was different, but SV whether people want to admit it or not, was very similar in play style. They made it where you wanted to use your traps more as SV, but it still played in the same vein. As I said before, its a reason the Devs picked SV to become melee.
Imo, merely making it at range would be insufficient as a theme, and thus as a 4th spec.
To me, Survival (RSV) should be all about tactics, synergies, attrition atop deliberately crafted moments of opportunity, with a damn high skill ceiling. MSV (let’s call it… Pursuit) should still be tactical, but about faster, frenetic in windows of opportunity but decisive in how it deploys those offensive tools, and more all-in and chancy in its gameplay, much like it is now.
I’d argue that WoD-era Frost and Fire weren’t that much more distinct in their actual flow of play than WoD-era SV and MM, but if you want to consider that a condemnation of those two mage specs (with Arcane and BM similarly distinct), I could see that. I felt that RSV didn’t do enough to make itself distinct. In no way did my thoughts then turn to making it melee, but I’ll admit that as much as I enjoyed WoD RSV (especially with its latest tier bonuses, as throughput-poor as they may have been relative to its competing specs), it felt like it needed… more.
I mean, from a names perspective, the only current spells/talents/effects we have that old RSV had are Explosive Shot and Lock and Load (Black Arrow has since been removed).
However, neither works anywhere close to how it worked for RSV, so really, that’s like arguing that Rapid Fire of today and Rapid Fire of WoD are the same thing.
Not necessarily. CS didn’t really have much interaction for MM even in WoD. The benefit of CS was its rotational role as a high-damage instant nuke (with minor cleave), not just its interaction with Stings (which was largely removed by WoD anyway).
As I told you earlier when you were posting about how no one seems to wonder why it was made melee, we don’t have to wonder. Ion told us directly why in his opinion they changed it, and even admitted it would likely be a niche spec that wouldn’t appeal to most hunters.
But avoiding going into MSV further, there is no reason if they truly felt that way they couldn’t just you know. Actually carve out a ranged gameplay to be more separated from MM, Shadowaxe. They were reworking everything anyway in Legion, so the idea that it had to be melee just rings hollow. I’m sorry you felt they were too similar, but given that this is a constant point of contention here, clearly a lot of other players feel very different from you.
The truth is, how the current spec was implemented was a total mistake. I don’t think having a melee spec is awful. I think it coming at the cost of one of our already long established specs was a mistake and I think Blizz knows that too at this point to be frank.
Yet again, there were some players who did feel they were similar. Just as people who feel that SV is like BM now, which is really a head scratcher because at no time in a fight should BM be in melee…ever. So because BM and SV share a few spells, which btw MM has as well, that makes BM and SV the same ? That is a stretch for sure, but that is the opinion, then one is entitled to it.
Munitions. We been down that road. So would munition be the resource instead of focus ? Or just something extra to have. I guess I should read the thread because I have not. I just feel Blizzard has a hard enough time balancing three specs. We get a 4th, Druids will be up in arms as well.
Well it is a discussion, but I just feel we should focus energy to getting the specs we have to work properly and get Hunters back to being viable in all aspects of the game.
I’m aware that skelly-dog-arrow was removed after Legion. My point was merely that I see no need to strip capacities from MM to push something similar only in name into any 4th, RSV spec. Call it Windburst Arrow instead, if one likes, but there’s nothing wrong with a shortish-CD delayed-detonation AoE on MM, to my mind, unless one has a very specific theme in mind for RSV it would compete with and they have something thematically cohesive in mind for MM with which to replace it, rather than merely ripping parts out willy-nilly over naming rights.
Oh, for sure. I’ve been arguing for Windburst to take the rotational role that Chimaera Shot had in WoD for like 2 expansions now. Explosive Shot can easily just become “Delayed Detonation” or something, or they could retexture it and make it like “Anima Shot” or “Shrapnel Shot” or something. Lock and Load is trivially easy to come up with alternative names for.
Edit: that’s where I was really going with pointing out that they’re wildly different abilities today than their RSV namesakes back in WoD and MoP. It’s like Rapid Fire today, the fact that we have an ability named that doesn’t mean we can’t still have an ability that did what Rapid Fire did in WoD (ie. make Trueshot pure haste ye monkeys!)
Erm…I’m looking through my spell book as MM, and I cannot for the life of me find Kill Command or Intimidation. Weird.
Munitions is the theme, not the resource mechanic.
I don’t mind MSV sticking around. Honest. But you will never get me to waste my time advocating for that spec’s betterment. If you enjoy it, awesome, more power to you. You go ahead and make those threads.
I won’t be doing it. Complaining that I’m spending my time advocating for the return of a spec I dearly enjoyed rather than trying to improve the spec you enjoy and I loath is a blatant red herring.
I’m talking thematics. Thematically, BM is a master of Beasts who fights as a team with their pet(s) to rip and tear foes apart.
Thematically, SV works as a team with their pet to fight up close and personal to kill their enemies.
The two are incredibly similar thematically which is why you sometimes see posters bring up that if any of the specs had to go melee, BM would have made the most sense.
In my thread it’s in addition to focus, though Ghorak doesn’t have an additional resource at all with his idea. The gameplay clearly isn’t that difficult to figure out and to ensure it is different than the other specs while still maintaining a homage to the old spec.
This isn’t a good argument. Blizz has always had a hard time balancing everything. It has not stopped them from adding new classes, nor will it stop them from continuing to do so in the future. And if the balance is going to be bad anyway, you might as well try to please more people by actually giving what they want (something they already had in fact).
The community is going to want more stuff anyway. I don’t think druids in particular would be the ones too upset though since they already have four specs. You’d probably hear more outcry from the other classes that may want a 4th spec. But quite frankly, I don’t think they are the hunter community’s problem. It’s incredibly clear that what Blizz chose to do is an incredibly unpopular decision that pushed players away from the class (and some from the game altogether).
Beyond wanting the spec back there’s another more pragmatic reason to wanting a 4th spec. It acts as an admission that how they added the current spec was a mistake. The precedent has been set, blizz can and will delete a spec if they want to. Which is a huge concern to current SV because of how widely despised and unpopular it is, not just within the hunter community but the WoW community at large. What happens if Blizz decides that the current spec is just totally unwanted (obviously not true) and that it’s not worth the resources to keep it going and rework it away from melee entirely? The current MSV can be deleted as well which is a problem of its own.
I believe it is in current SV fans best interest to want blizz to rectify that mistake to help fix that terrible precedent that was made. Because if we keep the current precedent, SV likely isn’t far from the chopping block and getting another massive rework down the line.
We can do both that and argue for what we want.
Edit: To reiterate, I don’t want the current spec to go away, and I absolutely agree it needs attention. The biggest thing it has right now that needs to be addressed is its lack of single target damage.
I just don’t buy Blizz’s argument that it was too similar or that they couldn’t differentiate it without completely changing its themes and gameplay to be completely contrary to what the hunter class had been up until that point. And I think how they chose to implement it is not only problematic to the old fans, but the current fans. This thread where the OP feels the need to title it to stay and beg for MSV to be left alone is proof of that. Literally, no one should have to feel like that is necessary. But it is because it could always be removed with Blizz repeating the mistakes made in Legion. And I think that ultimately, that is wrong and only serves to hurt the playerbase as a whole.
@Lazyguide: Yeah I am not fancy enough to pull these quotes out Plus in between meetings on the wow forums lol
Great discussion, and I would agree with some of your points. Though this conversation, (not this current one) for the viability of the Hunter, has been around as long as the forums. It would seem every xpac, every patch, there is a issue that Hunters need to over come. We either argue amongst ourselves, or with other classes on which spec should be doing what. BM on top ? Oh that easymode…they should not get A,B,or C. MM on top ? Why do they get everything ? OMG I was one shotted by a MM before I could click! Honetsly cannot remember when SV was on top, but OMG their melee…we have 9 other melee…Hunters melee should not beat any other “pure” melee…
It goes and goes. I took a long break from the forums…actually I took my break from the game. When I came back I stayed out of the Hunter forums for a long time. Some things are the same, but it is good to see that some can have a purposeful discussion about things.
Everything that was unique about survival has either been stripped from the game or given to the other 2 hunter specs over the years. The superior traps (I think steel trap is the only difference now), explosive shot + lock and load, the different ammos (auto slow was dumb), I think even camo was survival only. Atleast the healing while camo’d was.
Added: Camo was always all 3 specs
Mm has a bit of the old survival flavor but it’s still plays around aimed shot which I never cared for.
No worries man. Though you can just highlight the text you wish to quote and it should pop up with a button to quote for you. Quoting someone, crosslinking posts, or simply hitting the reply button at the bottom of their post will ensure they receive a notification as well!
I think that’s more or a less a constant discussion amongst all classes. Balance is fluid and can change rapidly from only a small change or two usually. So the discussion about whether we’re viable, are we good / meta, etc, is one I doubt will ever end.