The Dodo Compromise Mercy Rework v2

[Megadodo-11847]

This is a suggestion that I believe will keep Mercy players who are already happy with her current state happy, while appeasing or possibly even pleasing some (but not all) of those who are unhappy with her current state. I am not pushing for this change, as I like Mercy as she is now, but I wouldnt be opposed to it

Blizzard/Devs: I take no credit for this set of suggestions in part or full and you are free to use it in part or full if you wish without any fear of claims from me for credit or compensation of any sort. I fully release you here and now from any such liability whatsoever

If you are a Mercy player who is unhappy with Mercy for one or more of the following reasons, you may find some value in this proposal if you agree with one or more of the following (in no particular order of importance):

a) You feel 50HPs per second isn’t enough base healing to keep a teammate under fire alive and/or her healing is often trash healing for after fights are already over
b) You would prefer that rez be removed from Mercy altogether
c) You dont like Mercy’s movement being slowed when using Mercy’s cooldown ability, especially given that her mobility is one of her strengths
d) You dont find Valkyrie to be engaging enough – it is “spectator mode” for you
e) You want Mercy to have some form of burst healing
f) You want Mercy to have some form of crowd control (cc) cleanse
g) You want Mercy to be able to heal someone at a much higher rate (higher than the current 60 per player per second) when in Valkyrie mode

The changes I am suggesting below would require animation changes and ergo would be a rework rather than a simple buff/nerf. Though each change could be released separately, I personally think it would be best if they are packaged together in a single rework

Any aspect of Mercy not mentioned/addressed below remains as it is, unchanged

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Change 1: #BigMainLittleChains
This change provides some relief to those players who identify with complaints d and/or g above

I cover this a bit more extensively in a thread of its own (linked at the end of this post), and there is some good commentary there as well

Essentially, in Valkyrie mode only, the main beam from the staff heals (or damage boost) at a greater rate, while the chains heal (or damage boost) at a lower rate

I suggest healing be set to 75main/35chain, while damage boost be set to 35main/25chain, but these numbers can be changed as Blizzard deems fit until acceptably balanced, as long as the main beam remains significantly stronger than the chains

The effects of Acute (+10Hps/s) and Critical (+20HPs/s) Care as described in Change 2 below apply ONLY to the main beam.

The effects of the non-rez option of Invigorate as described in Change 3 below apply ONLY to the main beam.

This will encourage the Mercy player to prioritize the target of the main beam to whoever the player feels is in the greatest need of it - this also relates to the “beam juggling” skill that many Mercy mains speak of, a skill that doesnt come into play nearly as much when every teammate in the vicinity is getting the identical treatment via the current version of Valkyrie

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Change 2: Critical Care
This change provides some relief to those players who identify with complaint a, since Mercy becomes stronger healing teammates under fire but can still top lightly-wounded teammates off

Essentially, Mercy’s base (non-Valkyrie) healing beam is more efficient on targets who are closer to death, ie critical.

• Normal: Mercy’s base rate of healing is set to 40HPs per second
• Acute: Mercys base rate of healing is increased by 10 HPs/s (ie 50) if the target is down to between 50% and 75% (inclusive) of their maxiumum healable HPs (including healable armour and/or shields, as applicable)
• Critical: Mercys base rate of healing is increased by 10 HPs/s (ie 60) If the target is down to less than 50% of their maxiumum healable HPs (including healable armour and/or shields, as applicable)

If this is seen as too strong, my first idea for taking it down a notch would be to make the three conditions switch at thirds, ie above 67, 33 to 67, and below 33 in terms of percentages of full healable hps. In this fashion, the lower healing numbers would apply more often, and the full 60 applied far less often

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Change 3: Invigorate
This change provides some relief to those players who identify with complaints b, c, e and/or f above. The Mercy player can still choose to use the power to resurrect dead teammates, same as she can now, but can opt to instead assist a living teammate with burst healing and crowd control (cc) cleansing.

Essentially, the cooldown ability currently known as Resurrect is renamed to Invigorate (or it could be Revitalize, or Revive, or some other name that would represent the ability well); and the renamed ability can be used regardless of whether Mercy has a dead (soul marker) targeted at the time it is initiated.

If it is initiated when Mercy has a soul marker targeted, it would work EXACTLY as rez does now.

If is it initiated when Mercy does not have a soul marker targeted, it would have the following effects on Mercy’s yellow healing beam only
a) duration: 6 seconds
b) no speed reduction
c) no casting time
d) the first target of the healing beam during the duration of this effect will receive a instant healing “surge” (burst) of 100 HPs of healing in addition to the base healing effects of the healing beam (visual: a globular ‘bulge’ running down the length of the beam)
e) base rate of healing is increased by +10HPs/s
f) cleansing: the duration of the following cc effects on the target are reduced by a 0.5 seconds for each full second that invigorate is applied: Mei’s freeze/Blizzard, Ashe’s dynamite burn effect, McCree’s flashbag stun, Reinhardts Earthshatter stun, Sombra’s Hack and EMP, Ana’s antiheal and sleep effects, and Brigitte’s shield bash stun. The list of cleansed effects can be altered as deemed fit for balance. I do not think booping effects or Zarya grav should be added to the list

Those who want rez removed entirely might say that this doesnt remove rez, which is true. That said, with this change, a player that feels this way can get value out of the cooldown ability without ever using rez - effectively removing it from their game without removing it from everyone’s game

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Change 4: Minor QOL Changes

I’d like to see targeting for GA to be a bit more forgiving, so one can get to that Widow teammate on a high ledge who just wont come to the edge so Mercy can GA to her

I’d like to see the existing beam if any remain attached when Mercy starts Valkyrie

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I openly acknowledge that doesnt provide much (if any) relief for the many players whose main (or only) concern is getting mass rez back. Given what the dev’s have said about the unwanted behavior that resulted from mass rez, I dont think it can return to the game

I also openly acknowledge that doesnt provide much relief for the many players whose main (or only) concern is having a ultimate that offsets/negates an enemy ultimate, but the cleansing effects of Invigorate should help a bit against certain ultimates

All comments/criticism/input is welcomed

BUFF OR NERF? I see this set of changes as being a buff in some ways and a nerf in others. If one does the math on healing 75main/35chains and assuming 5 teammates, the total potential healing is definitely lesser than 60/60, yet generally not all teammates are being hit equally as hard, and as such I think the real healing will generally be higher, especially with proper juggling of beams. The options with Invigorate make the cooldown slot quite a bit more versatile, but I dont think healing and/or cleansing is a greater power than rez. YMMV. I can say I dont intend this set of changes to be a buff or a nerf overall; and if it is felt that it is, the numbers for each change can certainly be raised or lowered until it is neither

Here’s a link to the old/original thread discussing #BigMainLittleChains:

Here’s a link to the v1 compromise rework thread

[Megadodo-11847]

Thanks for the first bit of love, @Polski

[Megadodo-11847]

For fans of One Punch Man, I am considering changing critical care to “Serious” care

or maybe not, since Genos might not approve and get all huffy about it

[Silence-12583]

I’m in love with the proposal of Critical Care (which I believe was absent in your original thread), turning Mercy into even more of a mobile ICU, a flying ambulance. Do you think it would be of greater benefit if it was checked against the target being healed as you suggest, or if Mercy taking the damage herself creates a surge in her healing, creating a sort of last-stand impact and promoting a “bodyguard” style of play to activate it consistently?

[Megadodo-11847]

Silence:
Thanks for your response and the love

Ironic I was getting silence and now suddenly I get a response from @Silence

Critical care was indeed not present in the original v1 proposal.

The frequent complaint I saw (and am still seeing) was/is that Mercy doesnt heal enough to matter when a teammate was under fire, with some derisively dismissing Mercy’s healing as only good to top teammates off after the fight was already over. I figured 40 was fine to top off a lightly wounded comrade, so I nerfed her base healing and added more to when the going got tough…cuz when the going gets tough…

Given that reasoning (as well as the absolute fact related above that the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor) I think it best that the ramp up occur based on the condition of the target, rather than Mercy’s condition

Can you see the new strat of Mercys running around the battlefield trying to stay at 99HP (fighting their own regen passive) to strengthen their healing? Nah, I dont want to see that, and I dont think Blizzard would see that as acceptable behavior

Do you have any input on the other components of this compromise?

[DanDemonium-11441]

I’ve been looking forward to this
Personally I…
Strongly agree with: a, d, and g,
Strongly disagree with: b, and c,
And have mixed feelings on e and f.

Now for the change by change review.

Change 1: #BigMainLittleChains

This will encourage the Mercy player to prioritize the target of the main beam to whoever the player feels is in the greatest need of it - this also relates to the “beam juggling” skill that many Mercy mains speak of

As you know, I love this so freakin much. This is definitely my favorite part of the proposal. My one concern, and this might be a matter of opinion, is that this feels like a straight buff to Valkyrie. With increased power, and a greater focus on decision-making, I’m not sure if the ult needs to last for 15 seconds.

Would it be better to have this more impactful version of Valkyrie last only for 10 seconds? 7.5? Or is it less a buff and more a redistribution of utility (in which case no change in duration would be needed)?

Another possible change: IF Valkyrie’s duration were reduced, then I would consider making Rez instantaneous and with no slow-down effects only during Valk. If we have less time to Valk, then I don’t want to waste it on slowly Rezzing. If Valk’s duration remains as is, then I see no need to touch Rez at all.

Change 2: Critical Care

Essentially, Mercy’s base (non-Valkyrie) healing beam is more efficient on targets who are closer to death, ie critical.

This is really interesting. I’m not sure if it’s necessary, and I think a flat 55HP/s rate would be sufficient, but I like this creative take on making sure every character gets the treatment they need.

Although if I’m being honest, I tend to suggest 55hps because I’m not sure if 60 would be OP, although admittedly you’re only proposing that for characters with less than 50% of their health so it might not be an issue.

Similarly, if I (and many others) don’t think 50 is enough right now, then dropping it even further to 40 is going to feel just awful. Again, this only applies to characters above 75%, so it might be a non-issue, but I find it hard to get behind 40 under any conditions.

As a weird unintended consequence, this might make it more reliable to burst a full health character than try to pick off a low health character, because in that second of burst damage the Mercy pocket will be healing at such a low rate and you might be able to kill them faster before Mercy’s healing rate upgrades. I don’t know if this would be good, bad, or just different. Might not be an issue at all, but it’s something to consider. It might be really great, it might be adding unnecessary complexity to what could just be a slightly increased flat-rate, and I’m not sure how much skill it adds.
But it’s definitely interesting, I will give you that.

Change 3: Invigorate

As you know, I am very happy with Rez the way it is (including it’s cast time and slow), but since you are not changing the way the Rez part works, I won’t dwell on that aspect too much.

What I like: The cleansing. There is so much CC in this game, and it would be nice to have another anti-cc measure in the game. And quite frankly I think it fits Mercy’s personality fairly well to give it to her. I have no real qualms with her having a cleansing ability, and how you choose to implement is up to you. Personally, I’d leave Rez exactly the way it is, and put “Cleanse” on the reload key (so obviously it would only work with your staff out, Battle Mercy will be otherwise engaged).

What I don’t like: The burst heal. Not super fond of burst healing in general tbh. While I do feel that Mercy’s current base heal is too slow to keep even squishy dps up when under fire, a flat buff to 55 or your “Critical Care” proposal would seem to adequately account for the need for situational faster healing. Having a huge burst heal followed by a temporary amped healing output seems like overkill. (over-unkill? over-alive? Overwatch?)

My main concern is that if we make Mercy too good at healing everyone, she will become overpowered again, and will contribute to the GOATS comps that so many people have grown frustrated with. Maybe I’m overestimating the value of this burst heal, but it doesn’t strike me as necessary. I kinda like having a dps-enabling healer without a burst heal, it’s a nice change of pace from most other healers. I feel the same way about AOE/multi-target heals, but as stated above, I feel like the “BigMainLittleChains” proposal negates any problem I’d have with that.

In any case, I am grateful that you are not removing Rez or reverting back to Mass Rez, but I still don’t think Mercy needs a burst heal. But Cleanse is good, that part is definitely worth looking into.

Change 4: Minor QOL Changes

Honestly don’t have much to say here that wasn’t already covered in other sections. I have no problem with making GA a little more forgiving. It certainly beats the alternative of making it more demanding.
I notice that you didn’t touch her self-sustain or her pistol, which I am grateful for.

I dont think healing and/or cleansing is a greater power than rez.

I guess my main question is: do you think having cleansing and Rez is too much power without enough nerfs to balance it? I agree that no one ability there is more powerful than the other, but I think having cleansing and Rez and the burst heal from Invigorate might be too much.

I’m genuinely not sure whether adding only the Cleanse part without taking anything away would be OP.
It would be adding a new anti-cc ability for free, (although Invigorate as a whole would be adding even more to her E ability without taking away Rez, so I guess if my proposal is overpowered then yours definitely is)…

I dunno, I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on that matter.

For the most part though, I really like this proposal, and think it is by far the best Mercy proposal I have seen. I also greatly appreciate just how comprehensive (not to mention well-organized) it all is.

[Silence-12583]

I approve of Change 1, as it maintains the current balance of Valkyrie and its implementation as Blizzard sees it whilst highlighting the prioritization and decision making she currently makes out of ult. This ideally will serve to keep Mercy players in a flow state as is often lamented from her 1.0 days. I think the numbers you’ve proposed also benefit the ever-so often lack of coordination that occurs when she usually pops Valk, as teammates tend to wander and not benefit from the chains anyway. My only concern will be the times they do coordinate and the chains won’t be enough to mitigate even mild incoming AoE damage as they (barely) do now. As you’ve already suggested, however, these numbers could be subject to change.

Change 2 I think has the potential to have the greatest impact on the team as a whole, as the percentage based healing assuages the complaint of both healers and tanks that 50 HPS can’t keep them alive. This should create a stronger frontline whilst keeping her average healing output to others relatively unchanged. The Dive Tanks she already synergizes will appreciate this. My concern here is a reduction of the use of damage boost, as weaker base healing means she could be focused on keeping characters in the Acute state more frequently rather than enabling them. Hard to say by the numbers alone what playstyle would unfold, though.

I really have nothing for Change 3… I personally don’t like the feeling of Rez (despite the immense value I know I’m giving my team) because of that break in flow state but as it’s not going to be removed, I suppose any change could be refreshing. As I recall, however, Geoff has said that there currently isn’t enough CC in the game to warrant a CC cleansing ability, but it may be something they consider in the future. I personally don’t agree as: 1) currently the team with the most CC tends to win, and 2) if they truly thought this, I don’t believe they’d have given Orisa the Fortify ability.

But I digress. I think Invigorate certainly has potential as an ability given that all but one other healer possesses burst and AoE healing (I won’t include Zen, as Trance is his ult). It also addresses the concern I raised in Change 2, as the increase in base healing will allow Mercy to feel more comfortable switching to damage boost and knowing she can swiftly save a teammate in danger. My main question would be whether it interacts with Critical Care, becoming 40 (Base) + 10/20 (Acute/Critical) + 10 (Invigorate), and thus 50, 60, and 70 respectively. Secondly, does the cooldown begin after activation, or after the duration (effectively 24 vs 30)?

Overall, this proposal seems to shift Mercy’s role from reactive to proactive, with an overall healing increase promoting a preventative approach to teamfights rather than a preparedness to correct a mistake through Rez. I think the introduction of Invigorate would see a significant improvement in Mercy’s kit as it’s quite often that teammates die in un-rezzable situations, thus leaving Mercy with an unused ability for extended periods of time. Whilst this change won’t mitigate the numbers advantage like Rez would, it provides an option to assist the team without waiting for someone to die in a convenient spot. However, with its potential output, I don’t see Mercy being able to have two separate utilities on one ability.

I’d be curious to see which aspects of these changes the Devs would consider.

Also, I didn’t mean to base the power on Mercy’s amount of health. I should have specified that I was presenting something that wouldn’t utilize Critical Care; I wouldn’t wish for Mercy players to put themselves in even further danger. Rather, I meant that any damage to her would trigger an increase in healing, much like any damage to her negates her ability to regenerate. Thus while she isn’t regenerating and while she’s not at full health (and thus no longer regenerating), she has a slightly higher healing output. That was my original meaning.

[Megadodo-11847]

@AlexEptit
Thanks for your response and the love

I’ve been looking forward to this

Thanks

Personally I…
Strongly agree with: a, d, and g,
Strongly disagree with: b, and c,
And have mixed feelings on e and f.

Keep in mind that those were points for those who dont like Mercy’s current state state, ie the compromise rework details are to address those specific listed complaints. So for example someone who wants mass rez returned wont find that listed as a common complaint, because although it is most definitely a common complaint, it isnt a complaint addressed by this compromise rework proposal

I was thinking you like the current version of Mercy, and if so, those points arent intended for you - if that make sense?

For someone who likes the current version of Mercy, the only question is - will these changes make me unhappy, or will I still mostly be playing mercy the same as I am now

Change 1: #BigMainLittleChains

This will encourage the Mercy player to prioritize the target of the main beam to whoever the player feels is in the greatest need of it - this also relates to the “beam juggling” skill that many Mercy mains speak of

As you know, I love this so freakin much. This is definitely my favorite part of the proposal.

Although I still dont advocate change for Mercy, this one i the one that got me started down the path towards compromise. It solved multiple problems that were complained about often yet by total potential numbers wasnt a buff, but a nerf. I didnt like it at first, but it grew on me – fast

I’d love to be able to say I thought of it on my own

My one concern, and this might be a matter of opinion, is that this feels like a straight buff to Valkyrie. With increased power, and a greater focus on decision-making, I’m not sure if the ult needs to last for 15 seconds. Would it be better to have this more impactful version of Valkyrie last only for 10 seconds? 7.5? Or is it less a buff and more a redistribution of utility (in which case no change in duration would be needed)?

If you do the math on the max potential healing using 60/60 or 75/35 on 5 targets for 15 seconds, will will find that the total for the former exceeds the latter. So by potential, this is a nerf. If you’re only ever using it on one teammate, its a buff, but thats a rare circumstance. I think it is a wash, overall, and as such, no change in duration needed. As always, imo.

Another possible change: IF Valkyrie’s duration were reduced, then I would consider making Rez instantaneous and with no slow-down effects only during Valk. If we have less time to Valk, then I don’t want to waste it on slowly Rezzing. If Valk’s duration remains as is, then I see no need to touch Rez at all.

The most recent release appears to have taken away the slowdown effect from rez when in Valk mode, and as such I dont want to alter that further. I think rez should remain risky.

Change 2: Critical Care

Essentially, Mercy’s base (non-Valkyrie) healing beam is more efficient on targets who are closer to death, ie critical.

This is really interesting. I’m not sure if it’s necessary, and I think a flat 55HP/s rate would be sufficient, but I like this creative take on making sure every character gets the treatment they need.

Thanks

I dont see any of these changes as necessary, as I prefer mercy in her current state. This compromise is intended to keep existing players happy by keeping Mercy’s current playstyle intact while making changes to appease some (not all) of the unhappy players. As such i dont see it as necessary to change her rate of healing, but there are a lot of unhappy players complaining that they cant keep a teammate on their feet or that her healing is garbage in midfight, and so this change is an attempt to appease those with that specific concern. At 40 base you can still easily top off anyone with poke damage between fights, but with it ramped up when someone is low Mercy gains the power to better sustain that someone without invoking her ult, which increases her midfight value and possibly puts such complaints to rest

Although if I’m being honest, I tend to suggest 55hps because I’m not sure if 60 would be OP, although admittedly you’re only proposing that for characters with less than 50% of their health so it might not be an issue.

I’m against 55, or 60, or 51, or 50.01, or or or or etc etc etc as those are all clearly buffs

I dont want to buff Mercy

This change can be argued as a wash - given that Mercy’s base rate is lower or no better for half the possible states her teammates can be in

Similarly, if I (and many others) don’t think 50 is enough right now, then dropping it even further to 40 is going to feel just awful.

I get that. I do.

My thought here is that the 40 will be topping off someone who is only lightly wounded, ie a circumstance where the teammate is far less concerned about his health than if he/she were under 50% health. The urgency for a high rate of healing isnt the same

Again, this only applies to characters above 75%, so it might be a non-issue, but I find it hard to get behind 40 under any conditions.

I will ask any reader to think about whether healing 50 or 40 makes much difference if the teammate being healed is above 75% of their max. So for example DVa is at 450HP or more when your rate is 40. Not in great danger of dying under most circumstances. With existing healing, you get her full in 3 seconds. With 40HPs/s, you get her full in 3.75 seconds

As a weird unintended consequence, this might make it more reliable to burst a full health character than try to pick off a low health character, because in that second of burst damage the Mercy pocket will be healing at such a low rate and you might be able to kill them faster before Mercy’s healing rate upgrades. I don’t know if this would be good, bad, or just different. Might not be an issue at all, but it’s something to consider. It might be really great, it might be adding unnecessary complexity to what could just be a slightly increased flat-rate, and I’m not sure how much skill it adds.

It is an interesting tactical consideration

I think it’d still be better to burst someone for lets say 200 HP of damage if they are low because if they are at or under 200 they’re still gonna die no matter how fast Mercy is healing

But it’s definitely interesting, I will give you that.

As Mercy might say, Danke mein Herr

Change 3: Invigorate

As you know, I am very happy with Rez the way it is (including it’s cast time and slow), but since you are not changing the way the Rez part works, I won’t dwell on that aspect too much.

As with v1, it was and is absolutely intended that if you like to rez like you can now, you can still choose to reserve this ability to do so

The option was added because some folks just hate rez.

and I do mean hate it

What I like: The cleansing. There is so much CC in this game, and it would be nice to have another anti-cc measure in the game. And quite frankly I think it fits Mercy’s personality fairly well to give it to her. I have no real qualms with her having a cleansing ability, and how you choose to implement is up to you. Personally, I’d leave Rez exactly the way it is, and put “Cleanse” on the reload key (so obviously it would only work with your staff out, Battle Mercy will be otherwise engaged).

My intent here was to not force the mercy player to use yet another button/key they werent already using; and as such, it is intended by me that it be initiated the same way that rez is initiated, albeit thise mode occurs when no soul marker is targeted

What I don’t like: The burst heal. Not super fond of burst healing in general tbh.

Understood. It isnt an especially big number, and I did that intentionally to leave power on the table for the cleansing effect. I included burst in v1 Invigorate and kept it in v2 (tho made it smaller) because the absence of a burst heal is yet another frequent complaint among those who are unhappy with Mercy, ie “well, all of the other healers have burst! muh burst, muh burst!” so this is to assuage that particular set of unhappy folks. As with all the changes suggested in this compromise rework, I dont deem any to be necessary, but rather targeted at resolving /ameliorating a common complaint . I dont see this as bothersome to those already happy with Mercy because for the most part they wont be using this burst - they’ll be using this power to rez, same as they do now

While I do feel that Mercy’s current base heal is too slow to keep even squishy dps up when under fire, a flat buff to 55 or your “Critical Care” proposal would seem to adequately account for the need for situational faster healing. Having a huge burst heal followed by a temporary amped healing output seems like overkill. (over-unkill? over-alive? Overwatch?)

Good one I think a pro-burst individual who probably like the tactical implications of holding the burst until just after they get the target over the crtical threshold - when the base healing slows down and they want to get them full quicker; and they will also appreciate throwing in the burst when their target gets focused and the intent is just to delay death long enough that the target can get to cover or use a defensive or healing ability coming off cooldown. Or lets say Rein got frozen and Mei is popping icicles into his forehead. The burst helps this Rein survive the icicles a bit longer while the cleanse is thawing him more rapidly than he would otherwise - it gives Rein a chance to survive this otherwise certain death and then give Mei a good thrashing

My main concern is that if we make Mercy too good at healing everyone, she will become overpowered again, and will contribute to the GOATS comps that so many people have grown frustrated with.

I dont want her overpowered which is why I ensure any change suggested her save for the QOL stuff includes some nerf-y stuff with any buff-y stuff

For all of these, I am not stuck on the numbers, either. If non-rez invigorate is deemed too strong, for example, the rate of cleanse can be dropped from 0.5 to say 0.3, or the overall duration reduced by a second, or the added healing removed, or or or etc. I am more interested in addressing the complaints functionally than the exact numbers used…if that makes sense?

Maybe I’m overestimating the value of this burst heal, but it doesn’t strike me as necessary. I kinda like having a dps-enabling healer without a burst heal, it’s a nice change of pace from most other healers. I feel the same way about AOE/multi-target heals, but as stated above, I feel like the “BigMainLittleChains” proposal negates any problem I’d have with that.

Thats fair.

As I have stated, I dont see any of this as necessary - only as compromise positions to make some unhappy folks less unhappy

In any case, I am grateful that you are not removing Rez or reverting back to Mass Rez, but I still don’t think Mercy needs a burst heal. But Cleanse is good, that part is definitely worth looking into.

Because the Devs declared that mass rez caused unwanted behavior in the game - behavior I too saw quite frequently and also disliked - I dont feel that any form of mass rez - even two rez charges - can be included in a compromise I propose

Change 4: Minor QOL Changes

Honestly don’t have much to say here that wasn’t already covered in other sections. I have no problem with making GA a little more forgiving. It certainly beats the alternative of making it more demanding.

Have you ever had to wait for a Widow to come to the edge of her ledge on the side you are on even when you can see half or more of her GA target?

so frustrating

woman, i want to help you! Help me help you!

I notice that you didn’t touch her self-sustain or her pistol, which I am grateful for.

I have seen little to no real complaints about either - I think both suit her well

I dont think healing and/or cleansing is a greater power than rez.

I guess my main question is: do you think having cleansing and Rez is too much power without enough nerfs to balance it?

You dont get both, tho, at the same time - you get a choice after the cooldown is met to decide which to use.

One or the other, not both

I agree that no one ability there is more powerful than the other, but I think having cleansing and Rez and the burst heal from Invigorate might be too much.

In a given use, it isnt and and and, tho, its one or the other. The cleanse isnt super strong nor is the burst …in combination, they have some strength, like in the frozen Reincicle example I mentioned earlier. But even then, i dont think they have the raw power of a rez, and thats as intended - I didnt want the optional use-on-living-target power to be stronger than rez

I’m genuinely not sure whether adding only the Cleanse part without taking anything away would be OP.
It would be adding a new anti-cc ability for free, (although Invigorate as a whole would be adding even more to her E ability without taking away Rez, so I guess if my proposal is overpowered then yours definitely is)…

are you saying that the optional use-on-living-target power should only be a cleanse? I think that’d be a bit underpowered, even the cleanse were faster than what I am proposing

For the most part though, I really like this proposal, and think it is by far the best Mercy proposal I have seen. I also greatly appreciate just how comprehensive (not to mention well-organized) it all is.

Thanks

I look forward to continuing to talk through this with you

There will be a v3, and input like this helps to shape it

[Megadodo-11847]

I will come back to address all of your points (probably tommorrow, as it grows late, sorry) but overall

a) are you a player who likes Mercy’s current state (and would prefer like I do for her to not be changed), or are you a player who does not like Mercy’s current state (and ergo wants changes)?

and

b) do you like the changes overall?

[DanDemonium-11441]

I’m probably going to give a more thorough response tomorrow cuz I’m tired now, but I do wanna say that broadly speaking you’re right, I’m fairly happy with Mercy’s current iteration. I think she could be made slightly better, which is why I tend to like the smaller reworks of her existing abilities more than the addition of entirely new techniques.

You’re also probably right that 40HPS is sufficient for “topping off”. My guess is that it’s just hard to visualize because we don’t currently have an adjustable healing rate, so I can only picture it in terms of how 40HPS would feel as a static healing rate at all times. You have to admit that would be a miserable experience. But the reality is that with Tracer you won’t even notice the passage of time (no irony intended), and even with tanks that last 25% shouldn’t be a huge problem at 40HPS.

Regarding the duration of Valk: I’ll admit I haven’t done the math. And you admitted that you weren’t dead set on your numbers anyway, so I guess that’s kind of a moot point for now.

As for the instaRez on Valk: I’m like 90% sure they said that was a bug on PTR, and slightly less certain that they actually patched it back out in a later ptr build. How it got on the live servers I have no idea, but quite frankly I expect it to disappear as soon as they drop the event patch next week.

I definitely need more time to think over the invigorate idea, and I’ll include updated feedback on that in a more elaborate response in the morning.

[Megadodo-11847]

I can only picture it in terms of how 40HPS would feel as a static healing rate at all times. You have to admit that would be a miserable experience.

Uhm, yeah.

I actually expect a few folks to respond with questions about my sanity or whether I am off my meds, since everyone (I do mean everyone) I have heard speak of changing her healing rate wants it increased, with me the only one I know of saying “yeah lets go ahead and nerf that sucker”

I will look forward to your fuller response

[Goldlantern-1543]

I like Invigorate. It’s a pretty straight buff to give Mercy additional options like that but I’d be ok with it in this case since choosing the proactive form of the ability would still trigger a cooldown. It’s a big risk to use either way and it might make people really analyze the best way to use it instead of just rezzing because they can. I’m always for more decision-making from the supports.

Critical Care would definitely appeal to some Mercy players but I think any form of that would be too strong. 50 constant HPS is already very strong and anyone who focuses through that has earned the kill.

[Silence-12583]

a) Hard to say. I’ve fallen into an ELO where I can’t make tremendous use of her despite her being my main, so I end up playing Lucio. The performance is generally better on him, but just not as fun. If I could climb back up to a point where I can maximize her potential, I’m sure the answer would be an easy yes. That said, if any changes were to occur, I’d like to see Rez removed. It’s the only thing keeping her from the flow-state days of Mercy 1.0

b) Overall, yes. Adds mechanics that raise her ceiling.

[DanDemonium-11441]

For someone who likes the current version of Mercy, the only question is - will these changes make me unhappy, or will I still mostly be playing mercy the same as I am now

That’s a good way of putting it. Like I said before, I’m fairly happy with Mercy’s current kit. Most if not all of these changes would not make me unhappy, and some of them would make me even happier.

The sense I’m getting is that (Invigorate aside), none of these changes would hugely change the way I play Mercy, just improve the way I feel while doing it. I will still be prioritizing who I heal and when I heal them, but Critical Care would make that process more efficient. I would feel rewarded for prioritizing the dying Genji over the half health Rein by being able to heal him faster, which in turn would allow me to get back to the Rein before I lose him entirely.

If you do the math on the max potential healing using 60/60 or 75/35 on 5 targets for 15 seconds, will will find that the total for the former exceeds the latter. So by potential, this is a nerf. If you’re only ever using it on one teammate, its a buff, but thats a rare circumstance. I think it is a wash, overall, and as such, no change in duration needed. As always, imo.

Alright, fair enough. I guess it is technically a nerf in terms of raw healing output, and as such, would not justify reducing the duration of the ult. Which is perfectly fine by me, I simply find it tedious to keep Valk going for so long in its current form. This change would alter the way I use Valkyrie, but it would be in a way that makes Valkyrie feel more like the decision-making I normally employ, which to me is a good thing. I don’t really see a downside to having more time (well, as much time as we already do) to be able to make tactical decisions that can make or break a fight without abandoning my team to get kills myself (although that would of course still be an option )

I dont see any of these changes as necessary, as I prefer mercy in her current state. This compromise is intended to keep existing players happy by keeping Mercy’s current playstyle intact while making changes to appease some (not all) of the unhappy players.

Yeah I think this is another good example of “not necessary, but it wouldn’t be a bad thing”. I guess I should have waited before talking about this instead of opening with it, but I stand by my assertion that this doesn’t intrinsically alter my playstyle, it just makes it less frustrating.

My thought here is that the 40 will be topping off someone who is only lightly wounded, ie a circumstance where the teammate is far less concerned about his health than if he/she were under 50% health. The urgency for a high rate of healing isnt the same

Yeah, you’re right. Healing from critical condition at 40hps, especially while under fire, would be a nightmare, but there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be sufficient for putting a bandaid on some splash damage.

I think it’d still be better to burst someone for lets say 200 HP of damage if they are low because if they are at or under 200 they’re still gonna die no matter how fast Mercy is healing

Good point, I can’t really argue against a solution to the soulcrushing feeling of keeping your Rein of life-support while Mei saps the life out of him.

The option was added because some folks just hate rez.

While I get that people hate rez, its still intrinsically part of her character. I would never advocate for the addition of a reviving ability if it weren’t already in the game, but since it was present at launch I feel like stripping Mercy of rez entirely would be like stripping Lucio of his music (lore-wise), or for a more gameplay-oriented example, like stripping Reinhardt of his shield.

But I guess as long as you’re adding abilities to her E rather than replacing them, this isn’t a huge problem. This is more about my disagreement with other people, rather than with you.

My intent here was to not force the mercy player to use yet another button/key they werent already using;

Yeah that’s reasonable. My argument is that a staff-equipped Mercy isn’t using the reload button anyway, whereas having multiple outcomes on the same button might be confusing. But I guess if it’s handled sufficiently so that it seems like different applications of the same ability, rather than different abilities that happen to be on the same button, then that’s fine.

I dont see this as bothersome to those already happy with Mercy because for the most part they wont be using this burst - they’ll be using this power to rez, same as they do now

Another good point that I can’t really argue with. As long as Rez is still there, this boils down to “I’m not sure she needs a burst heal”, rather than “don’t take away my rezzing”. The more I think about it, the less opposed I am to this change.

I think a pro-burst individual who probably like the tactical implications of holding the burst until just after they get the target over the crtical threshold

Damn you for throwing out the t-word you know I can’t resist implementing strategic moves into Mercy’s kit!

The burst helps this Rein survive the icicles a bit longer while the cleanse is thawing him more rapidly than he would otherwise - it gives Rein a chance to survive this otherwise certain death and then give Mei a good thrashing

Oof, appealing to my aggressive Mercy nature again. Sometimes when a teammate is being harassed, I find it more beneficial to whip out my pistol and gun the enemy down before healing my friend, since we’ve already discussed the times when healing only delays the inevitable. This burst would ensure that my teammate lives long enough for us to eliminate the threat before I finish patching them up (kill and heal, rather than kill and rez).

Alright fine, I’m begrudgingly on board with Invigorate

I am more interested in addressing the complaints functionally than the exact numbers used…if that makes sense?

Yeah that makes perfect sense, I know that none of these numbers are set in stone. In fact the only thing that’s set in stone about Mercy is that no matter what changes you make, some people will never be happy until rez is gone entirely, while other people will never be happy until Mass Rez is back. In other words, nobody will ever make the entire Mercy fandom (let alone the entire Overwatch playerbase) happy, the best you can do is try to appease to those of us who fall somewhere in between the extremes.

Have you ever had to wait for a Widow to come to the edge of her ledge on the side you are on even when you can see half or more of her GA target?

so frustrating

woman, i want to help you! Help me help you!

Yeah, almost exclusively on the second point of Gibraltar “I NEED HEALING” (repeated ad nauseum)

"Maam, if you step literally one inch forward you can have your all the heals you want. No, the other forward… try again… "

You dont get both, tho, at the same time - you get a choice after the cooldown is met to decide which to use.

Right, I don’t mean being able to use both (or all 3) at once, I just mean having them all in her kit.

It’s like hanzo’s…. sonic arrows? Or was it scatter? Whichever one you could toggle on and off before firing the exact same way as your normal attack.

The point being that you have different utilities that you can “swap” between that are all bound to the same button. What I’m suggesting is that adding cleanse and a burst heal to E, in addition to Rez, would be like giving Hanzo even more arrow types to toggle between without taking anything away. (Instead of replacing Scatter with his rapid fire arrows, scatter stays as its own ability, while the primary fire can toggle between normal, sonic, and rapidfire).

Obviously you have to choose which one you’re going to use at any given time, I’m just not sure if adding more options is fair. Does that make sense? I’m not sure if i’m explaining myself well, or if I even have a point in the first place…

in combination, they have some strength, like in the frozen Reincicle example I mentioned earlier. But even then, i dont think they have the raw power of a rez, and thats as intended

I’m willing to admit that I might simply be overreacting out of fear of a power-creep that you’re clearly working hard to avoid…

are you saying that the optional use-on-living-target power should only be a cleanse? I think that’d be a bit underpowered, even the cleanse were faster than what I am proposing

Again, my chief concern is that giving an optional burst heal that only comes at the expense of not being able to rez for the duration of the cooldown seems like a big buff.
Adding just a cleanse for nothing doesn’t seem like as big of a buff.

Now that I think about it, that might also be part of why I suggested putting cleanse on the reload button instead of making it an alternate to rez.

I agree that choosing between cleanse or rez on the same button would make cleanse seem underpowered compared to the alternative.

But if it was implemented in a way that didn’t require strict balancing against rez (by making it a separate ability entirely) then maybe that issue could be circumvented entirely, and we wouldn’t need to give Mercy a burst heal as an incentive to use E for things other than rezzing.

Does that make sense? I’m kinda making this part up on the fly, its not as carefully scripted/thought-out as the rest of my replies.
That’s to be expected though, since this is (at least in my opinion) the most complex change in your proposal (not to mention the one I’m most resistant to), so there’s a lot to dissect and plenty of room for us both to misunderstand each other.

I actually expect a few folks to respond with questions about my sanity or whether I am off my meds, since everyone (I do mean everyone) I have heard speak of changing her healing rate wants it increased, with me the only one I know of saying “yeah lets go ahead and nerf that sucker”

HA! I’d only question your sanity if your proposal involved 40HPS at a flat healing rate.
Once you get past the hurdle of realizing that 40HPS only applies to the top 25% of a character’s health pool, you realize that you’ll be healing at her current rate just as often. And at the buffed rate that so many people are asking for the other 50% of the time.

I look forward to continuing to talk through this with you

As do I It’s refreshing to be able to have civilized conversations rather than throwing out childish insults over petty disagreements.

[Megadodo-11847]

I approve of Change 1, as it maintains the current balance of Valkyrie and its implementation as Blizzard sees it whilst highlighting the prioritization and decision making she currently makes out of ult. This ideally will serve to keep Mercy players in a flow state as is often lamented from her 1.0 days. I think the numbers you’ve proposed also benefit the ever-so often lack of coordination that occurs when she usually pops Valk, as teammates tend to wander and not benefit from the chains anyway. My only concern will be the times they do coordinate and the chains won’t be enough to mitigate even mild incoming AoE damage as they (barely) do now. As you’ve already suggested, these numbers could be subject to change.

I personally look at any incoming healing as a good thing - even a small amount can stave off death long enough to get to cover or even have Mercy notice you getting focused and switch the main beam to you. The desired feature here is the bigger main - some folks dont even want chains at all, just one big beam - and since this is a compromise rework, the chains are smaller to “pay” for the increase to the main beam

Change 2 I think has the potential to have the greatest impact on the team as a whole, as the percentage based healing assuages the complaint of both healers and tanks that 50 HPS can’t keep them alive. This should create a stronger frontline whilst keeping her average healing output to others relatively unchanged. The Dive Tanks she already synergizes will appreciate this. My concern here is a reduction of the use of damage boost, as weaker base healing means she could be focused on keeping characters in the Acute state more frequently rather than enabling them. Hard to say by the numbers alone what playstyle would unfold, though.

I can see where this change might affect damage boost a bit but personally I see Mercy as healing first, boosting second

I really have nothing for Change 3… I personally don’t like the feeling of Rez (despite the immense value I know I’m giving my team) because of that break in flow state but as it’s not going to be removed, I suppose any change could be refreshing

The concept here is that using the use-on-living option doesnt break the flow, so for those players who dont want said break in flow, they can and probably will go with use-on-living option.

No rez, no break in flow.

As I recall, however, Geoff has said that there currently isn’t enough CC in the game to warrant a CC cleansing ability, but it may be something they consider in the future. I personally don’t agree as: 1) currently the team with the most CC tends to win, and 2) if they truly thought this, I don’t believe they’d have given Orisa the Fortify ability.

IMO, there is already too much CC in the game, and cleansing is waaaaay overdue

But I digress. I think Invigorate certainly has potential as an ability given that all but one other healer possesses burst and AoE healing (I won’t include Zen, as Trance is his ult). It also addresses the concern I raised in Change 2, as the increase in base healing will allow Mercy to feel more comfortable switching to damage boost and knowing she can swiftly save a teammate in danger. My main question would be whether it interacts with Critical Care, becoming 40 (Base) + 10/20 (Acute/Critical) + 10 (Invigorate), and thus 50, 60, and 70 respectively. Secondly, does the cooldown begin after activation, or after the duration (effectively 24 vs 30)?

Cooldown timer restart same as with rez

Acute/Critical Care only applies to the main beam, and it does apply additively with the 10 from use-on-living invigorate

Overall, this proposal seems to shift Mercy’s role from reactive to proactive, with an overall healing increase promoting a preventative approach to teamfights rather than a preparedness to correct a mistake through Rez. I think the introduction of Invigorate would see a significant improvement in Mercy’s kit as it’s quite often that teammates die in un-rezzable situations, thus leaving Mercy with an unused ability for extended periods of time. Whilst this change won’t mitigate the numbers advantage like Rez would, it provides an option to assist the team without waiting for someone to die in a convenient spot. However, with its potential output, I don’t see Mercy being able to have two separate utilities on one ability.

Since only one of the utilities can be used at a time, I dont see this as powering her up, but instead making her more versatile

I’d be curious to see which aspects of these changes the Devs would consider.

same here

Also, I didn’t mean to base the power on Mercy’s amount of health. I should have specified that I was presenting something that wouldn’t utilize Critical Care; I wouldn’t wish for Mercy players to put themselves in even further danger. Rather, I meant that any damage to her would trigger an increase in healing, much like any damage to her negates her ability to regenerate. Thus while she isn’t regenerating and while she’s not at full health (and thus no longer regenerating), she has a slightly higher healing output. That was my original meaning.

Understood

[Megadodo-11847]

Thanks for the love @Rocktopus, @Robotwizard (we continue to see more eye to eye?) and @Goldlantern

[OfficerSmile-1410]

Just remove resurrect already

[DanDemonium-11441]

It’s what she’s known for, the thing that puts her on the map. Removing Mercy’s Rez would be like removing Pharah’s jet pack.

[Megadodo-11847]

Just remove resurrect already

Thanks for the input

Because this is a compromise rework, rez will remain a part of it.

[FFirebrandd-1844]

Alrighty, here we go.

Change 1: Big Main Little chains. I like this change. I’ve liked it for quite a while now.

Change 2: I love it. Nothing else to say really. It has bugged me for a while that Mercy has GA which makes her perfect for reacting to allies in trouble but had no healing mechanism to make her good at helping critical allies.

Change 3: You don’t mention the cool down if using the living target version. I’m assuming it is 30s as well? Gut reaction is I like it but the numbers look a little low for a 30s cool down… but I also may be underselling the cleanse effect… Not sure exactly. I do like how you’ve tied the cleanse to an ability in such a way that it isn’t the main upside of the ability.

Change 4: That all sounds good to me. I’m not sure we’ll ever see the existing beam not be interrupted because all transformation ultimates temporarily stop the usage of the weapon. Actually, thinking about that more, there may be a technical limitation there. Like Mercy may have an invisible weapon swap that happens during the cast.

Also, any chance I could get you to add a QoL buff to press E again to cancel Resurrect?

I must say I would somewhat prefer it if my set of low impact changes happened… but… overall I would be incredibly happy if this set of changes got applied to Mercy.

OH! Edit: also side note that I want to add before I forget. Change #2 actually further weakens her synergy with tanks. Part of the reason that stacking healing on Tanks is super effective is because they have armor. Depending on what removed the armor in the first place… healing it back could effectively double the healing rate applied. However, since Armor sits above HP, most (Rein, DVa) or all (Hammond, Winston, ) of Mercy healing armor will be at her 40 HPs rate. The only exception is Orisa since she’s half armor. I don’t know if you intended to do that… but yeah, this Mercy will be kinda terrible at replacing armor. So if you get any more people worrying that these Mercy changes would strengthen Goats… yeah… they won’t.