Raid vs Mythic+ loot tables

Since there has been a lot of discussion around mythic+ vs raid loot I decided to take a look at the secondary stat combos available on gear from the new raid and mythic+ dungeons in SL from the dungeon journal in beta.

I was logged on my shaman in beta so this is mail armor only and neck/back/rings

I’m not including trinkets because their power is based on their effect and are not itemized with the generic 2 secondary stat template.

There are 6 possible combos on gear of the 4 secondary stats.

Head - the raid has 1 mail head item and it’s haste/mastery. Mythic+ has 3 different

Neck - the raid has 2 neck drops, haste/mastery and crit/mastery. Mythic+ has 4 different.

Shoulders - the raid has 1 mail shoulders and its mastery/vers. Mythic+ has 3 different.

Chest - the raid has 2 mail chests and BOTH are crit/mastery. Mythic+ has 3 different.

Boots - the raid has 1 pair of mail boots and its crit/mastery. Mythic+ has 4 different.

Rings - the raid has 3 rings being haste/crit, haste/mast, and mastery/vers. Mythic+ has all 6 stat combos including 4 duplicates to stack specific stats.

The rest of the slots are similar, but the takeaway is that unless secondary stats stop mattering for specs the mythic+ loot is going to be miles better than the the raid just from secondary stat stacking since there is so little variety in raid loot.

Also, at least for mail, in all the loot there were only 3 items with stat combos available on the raid and not from a dungeon (one wrist, gloves, and legs).

15 Likes

I don’t think the concern will be for the first raid tier. It’s down the road where you’ll notice the difference in ilvl

2 Likes

I’m starting a cackling club with other MM Hunters. PST for invite.

4 Likes

Every raid tier they just shift the item level 30 item levels, so the relative difference will remain the same.

I’d like to take a step back on this subject and look at the big picture.

As has been observed in the Beta, loot quantities overall are reduced in Shadowlands. Following the proclamation “let loot be loot”, we’re entering into a world without Warforging and Titanforging, where getting an item from relevant content should feel rewarding on its own more often, without needing to hope for random upgrades.

Bonus rolls no longer exist, and the Great Vault captures the value they used to provide to raiders. Non-raiders should also factor in the Great Vault, as completing a Mythic Keystone +15 will award a choice of up to three item-level 226 pieces from the Great Vault.

Currently in the Shadowlands Beta / first tier of the expansion, PvP loot for top ratings caps out at item level 226.

While outdoor world gameplay and professions offer a range of epic gear, the very strongest loot in WoW comes from the three organized multiplayer endgame progression paths: Rated PvP, Mythic Keystone dungeons, and raiding. The design intent is for all three paths to provide parallel progression over the course of a tier, while providing players who engage in multiple paths at a comparable level a faster advancement experience. For example, we’re currently targeting item level 213 for Challenger-level PvP, Heroic raiding, or Mythic Keystone dungeons at the +7 difficulty.

Of course, there could be further adjustments to all of this in the weeks to come before Shadowlands launches.

117 Likes

The intention here is good, but you are making mythic+ worthless 2-3 months into each tier by making it lower than heroic quality gear. The only reason to ever run a mythic+ keystone at this point would be for your weekly reward.

56 Likes

Or because players enjoy the content even without the reward?

75 Likes

I think this is the point. PvP and M+ have always eventually fallen into the hole of you only really get an upgrade on Tuesday, maybe, if you’re lucky, which the M+ weekly chests are now giving more chances at. We’re in that stage every season as it is toward the middle-end of it.

So, in other words, they want it to be that if you do M+ and PvP only, you only get upgrades on Tuesday. Raiding is the only exception to that rule because it’s also on a 1x a boss possibility of loot.

22 Likes

It’s only 3 item levels. You’ll be fine for whatever content you want dungeon gear for. And the 3 item levels that you’re losing isn’t going to help you time a +20 any more than if it was the same ilevel as heroic gear.

This has been true ever since weekly chest has been around. Save a few OP items that are good at almost any level (ie, mage bracers), people stop spamming mythic+ for end of run rewards easily 2 or 3 months into the expansion already.

5 Likes

I don’t mind reduction of the loot funnel that was required due to the extreme RNG of the system… as long as the RNG is truly fixed.

Why not just put in a currency system? Got me.

But one thing to keep in mind: if I do 20 progression M+ runs a week … so lets say we average an hour per run mostly because queues are slow to fill with appropriate people due to lack of filtering and sorting that should really exist - if I want to scan for 4 specific dungeons in the 12 to 14 range, I should be able to… so lets say 20 hours a week of WoW time dedicated to this.

What is the expected “upgrade per hour of time put in” if you are always successful in your runs. If you say I’ll probably get 1 upgrade a week - consistently - so that I gear up in roughly 14 weeks… I’m cool with that.

If you say I will, after 14 weeks, only have 4 to 7 slots with good gear… well, not really thrilled with that. If that is the case, I won’t be playing season 2. Just keep that in mind when you do your “appropriate” gear plan.

12 Likes

The problem with this approach is that now Mythic Keystones at your targetted level are only reward once per week, whereas Heroic raiding has 10 possible chances of reward per week, usually resulting in about 2-3 items. Not to mention a +7 key is much more trivial than Heroic raiding, which imbalances the risk/reward ratio.

Wouldn’t a better approach be introducing a sort of loot lockout to Mythic keystones (different schemes are possible here), and having the appropriate difficulty end of dungeon drop that 213 loot (instead of 210 ? Why even 210, why not 213 ?).

17 Likes

Thanks for the clarification…happy to see tweaks and adjustments are still pending and things are subject to change.

Dont stir up drama. Its a post where loot is being discussed, and you added nothing to the discussion.

3 Likes

Can you please provide more details for how the Great Vault will function for raiders? What bosses is it possible to get loot from – The bosses you killed or any boss in the raid? Does it provide the same ilvl as the difficulty you killed X bosses on? Regardless, that doesn’t provide the same value. Bonus rolls allowed for targeting specific bosses.

16 Likes

Kaiivax please tell Watcherdev he’s still not getting we (PVPer’s) do not care about item level of our gear outside of the arena and we DO NOT care about over gearing our opponents we want.

1.) PvP gear to be the best for PVP
2.) EPIC PvP gear of all levels to be equal in rated PVP.

28 Likes

I’d like more variety and maybe a few more drops in raids, but the M+ end-of-dungeon chest is really a non-issue by the end of the first few weeks of the given season.

The end of week cache is an overall net improvement over what we have now.

2 Likes

Last time I checked not even Mythic 15s dropped 213 ilvl. Was this changed recently?

2 Likes

red flag

As someone who’s only really interested in doing PvP, does this mean that I’d be at a disadvantage compared to someone who does PvP and PvE content? If yes then there’s going to yet again be the problem of PvPers being forced into PvE content if they want to compete.

19 Likes

Did they fix the vendor gear yet, or is it still trash?

I have zero hopes for SL PVP being even remotely fun.

8 Likes

That’s not likely the case for raiding though, you’re using current BFA loot drops, which were just mentioned are not what we’re getting going into Shadowlands. There is a reduced amount of loot there too, so it should equate to the same amount of loot.

2 Likes