Doing all forms of content rewards the best gear. Has been this way for a while now, and the weekly chest shouldn’t be lower in my opinion. That takes away from people who like to min max and make the best sets possible. The raid simply doesn’t have enough gear to go around with good itemization, hence needing that weekly M+/PvP cache.
Also while I understand you wanting the M+ end of dungeon rewards to be on par with normal due to how frequently they can be ran, you also need to take into consideration how easy normal raids are. Raids reward the best content because they require the most dedication to accomplish, (well, PvP is arguably harder and higher keys are harder than heroic raid - however Blizz sets the max iLvl cap on M+ so low it doesn’t matter) but normal doesn’t really fit here. The raid is a face roll at that difficulty, and at a point heroic becomes face roll too (also why the iLvl scales up over time in M+).
In my opinion, a good fix would be to scale the M+ and PvP rewards throughout the season and not just at each patch. Keep the key level required for M+ to obtain good gear scaling up throughout each patch. At a point, a +15 isn’t as hard as a Mythic boss. Move the bar to +20 when that happens.
I think that that’s something people fail to understand, honestly. The number of people who will be reliably clearing +15s in the first week or two of a season is comparable or perhaps even more exclusive than the number of people who will be reliably fully clearing the Heroic raid during its first two weeks. The amount of effort that goes into +15s is certainly not lower [sometimes is higher, depending on the week], but the issue people seem to take with it is repeatability.
Blizzard seems to have no problem with doing more content allowing for faster gearing, so I’m not sure why this is a problem that people think is only solvable by permanently locking M+ end-of-dungeon below Heroic raid gear. They could very easily cap off end-of-dungeon gear for the first 3-4 weeks of the tier if that’s going to be such a problem.
I do agree that slowly scaling the top end up to match Mythic raiding would work. Maybe the first few weeks could be +20s offering equivalent gear to Mythic, and then slowly working up. Lots of people who talk about having recently done +20s forget just how exclusive and difficult pushing +20s actually was for those doing it at the beginning of the tier.
How about some solutions, then? This is very much a solvable problem that has been ignored in development decisions, and is antithetical to the words provided by blizzard directly on design intent (more below)
Potential solutions starting point
This direct quote, below, doesn’t hold up…
Reason being, it doesn’t mathematically equate
“EOD” gear per raid boss drops at 25% rate per boss. This is not available to any other system and is a unique gearing path for Raid. All other “EOD” gear per event drops meaningless loot that is powerless… With meaningful boss loot being available only to raid, then individuals that select to raid over other high challenge content will have a quantifiable advantage immediately, and continue to gear at a pace that is unparalleled.
Progression is not only raid progression. Raiding will be exclusively the best (read: only competitive) way to gear for all other content. Even though it is stated above in blue, that it is intended to be “parallel progression” throughout the tier. There is only one path for viable progression, as mathematically laid out.
I mean, I’d be down for M+15 end of week to drop Heroic equivalent from last two bosses, and then make +20s the threshold for near-Mythic gear and end-of-week full equivalent Mythic gear. But then you don’t seem amenable to a middle ground and just consider raiding to be superior content, so I’m not sure how much of a discussion can be had with you.
Nope. I stopped raiding after Wraith and what you write is BS.
The person who spends half their time hitting one node after another or kills deer over and over and over and over for leather til they are dreaming about it that night is putting in just as much effort for gear. If you ever farmed something so much that when you sat back it added up to thousands upon thousands then that person deserves to be able to craft something comparable to that level of effort they put in.
The player who is running BGS, arenas relentlessly just to get enough honor or conquest to buy gear is surely doing just as much work as a raider. Stay out of poop-check, healing til nose bleed-check, learned their class and other people’s class-check, had to prep consumables-check, was on a timer-check…the only difference is every fight is different and they lack AI mobs. Timer. LOL. M+ want to use this as the rationale for the best gear. Glad you are FINALLY on a timer. PVP’ers have had that mechanic for years.
WOW seems to peak at around 12-14 million at the beginning of an xpac and it drops to around a million at the end. Raid or die needs to be looked at critically and the best gear going to raiders is something that also needs to be looked at.
I’m not trying to convince you. I just find the stance of “raid good, m+ bad” hard to understand. Is it something about a fear of timers? Fear of rejection? Inability to participate in the content?
People who dislike M+ or try to look down their nose at people who enjoy it typically have a reason to feel the way they do.
You know whats funny about this thread. The change is driven by the design team. To all the mythic+ dungeon players complaining at other players and putting them down. It doesnt matter, you already lost your argument the change is happening, next month.
First a little back ground as this isn’t my main. I have been tanking since the days of Evercrack and its release. I went through the last 16 years here tanking as well. Wow for a while had a on and off thing with me. Not that I disliked the game, things in my life at the time just didn’t permit me to play like I wanted in comparison to EQ. Now a days I consider myself a filthy casual. I’ve accepted that. Kids will do this to you…especially when you are putting one of them through college. I make no claim to be cutting edge in the game, but I think I know enough to express how I feel on the current way things are done with gear so I shall express my opinion.
Coming from EQ and Wow being a ex raider…Yes Raiding should have the better gear. It takes time to gather 15 to (insert your choice of number here) average people in comparison to a 5 man group. It also takes time to keep those people on focus, and consistent. The more you add to the equation, the more that could go wrong. Its a numbers game period. The argument of doing it any dungeon and or raid repeatedly really for any side of the argument is invalid in my opinion, not counting the spamming of dungeons… Nothing in either instant really changes from day to day or week to week. For those that will scream the affixes change for dungeons…don’t…you’ve know this long now what affixes do and don’t…its just a matter of the week. You COULD spam dungeons…you can’t spam raids. Gear is a huge issue and it falls from the sky currently. That is what most people really complain about. Anytime you do a heroic raid…really any raid and this could be applied to mythic plus…and a patch comes out…and your gear is replaced by a WQ…there’s a issue. ILVL scales to much currently and until its fixed, this will be a core issue between the two communities in my opinion.
Mythic plus really is fine as it is. Do the dungeons…you get gear at the weekly chest to pick from. If you want the better weekly gear…Climb to 14 and be done with it and put it on farm status. The Ilvl difference is minuscule at best after about 5 weeks of farming the dungeons at plus 14 runs.
People will hate on this next comment and its cool but I currently am happy with the set up. I don’t’ expect to get gobs of ilvl as a raider. I am causal these days and to be honest, I rather do dungeons over raiding. I enjoy raiding but raiding to me has always been hit and miss with this community. You either get real lucky and find a bunch of guys and girls that will teach you…or you get a bunch of fools that kick you for the first mistake done. I think 2/3’s of the raiding community have forgotten that you can watch all the videos you want on a instance…experience IS the best teacher. Mythic plus community is the same way but at least its easier to find some one to do a key in that regards. Perhaps I’ve been spoiled as a tank I dunno. I have a friend I do keys with and she heals wonderfully and dps is a dime a dozen.
If you’re going to play the min and max game…you should be raiding. Dungeon gear is meant to get you to raiding. That was the original intent of the gear. People have either forgotten that or never had to deal with that. Mythic plus added to dungeons to keep the relevant. Consider it icing on the cake and you best watch how much you complain before they end mythic plus all together. If anything really should go currently…it should be LFRaiding. There is still in my opinion no risk to the reward.
I like mythic plus…I hope it stays as it is as its a good way to progress your power for your toon. Its a good alternative to raiding for people like myself. Its just been slowed down a tad and rightfully so. As some one posted earlier. You can spam them…you can’t spam raids.
Just my two copper.
For those that this matters too.
My prot paladin is currently 472 and was my main this expansion.
My Blood Death Knight did raid during Legion…got ahead of the curve. Sitting some where between 455 and 465 I believe in Ilvl currently. Still deciding on which to main during SL.
It is challenging to assemble a reliable raid, but that doesn’t make the encounter content itself more or less challenging. This is core to the discussion.
The idea of doing content as mechanically difficult, but literally not rewarded at all makes for unfortunate psychology, and tends to disincentivize content. This point is important for game design, and entertainment systems that financially rely on players remaining invested in the game. I’d love to see WoW stay alive (with the resource backing that it has) for many, many years and expansions ahead.
Spammable content, etc. are all as they are, not necessarily as it could/should be. I agree there has to be gear dominance, and relative fairness for effort. The problem is that it’s so insanely far out of alignment, especially with now nerfing m+ drops an entire 1/2 of a raid difficulty level (now Normal | Mythic+ | Heroic in that order).
Current boss drop rate for meaningful loot (sans chest)
Same rate for m+ is 0% (sans chest)
Also, for scarcity, etc. these are all things that have been mentioned above.
There are also other options: allow players to “loot” one key per dungeon, etc. Many potential solutions to this solvable problem
This would likely lower subscription numbers, and be a bad development decision on it’s face. Not sure why I should be concerned about this - it should be good hygiene to express desires to the d&d team to opine on, and potentially use for game improvements. Developers rely on understanding user experiences and desired outcomes. This is valuable feedback that we’re providing (from all angles)
I agree on the mechanic side of things. Again to me its more numbers and getting the reliable people together. It can be easy as pie to do…but if there is a number requirement and you don’t meet said requirement…the jobs not getting done…hence my reasoning of believing that they are trying to “implement” I guess is a good word to use for the headache of gathering people as part of the process. Correct me if I’m wrong but I’ve heard on a few youtube videos that the number difference between heroic and mythic plus dungeon spamming loot is 3 item levels difference. There’s 18 slots. Its a 54 Ilvl difference total unless my math is wrong. This is farming 15’s. Do know you will be getting a mythic raid piece of gear in your weekly chest. Guaranteed. Again to me this is a battle of the min and maxers of the two communities. If it bothers anyone that bad…Bring up LFG and look for people doing heroic pugs and pug the first boss or two.
Agreed, with M+ and PvP as well. Teams exist in all content and they’re optimized to push the very most difficult content. Reward structures / player outcomes are not remotely similar for player investment (time, or skill).
Yup, you’re right here. The difference now between raid difficulties is 7, it’s different and a major difference now. Also, last bosses of mythic raid now drop even higher than this (an entire raid difficulty higher 226 -> 233). As it sits, M+ (even the very highest) is now 2.5 raid difficulty tiers below mythic raiding (sans chest for both)
I don’t think it has to be this way. There are systems that allow for raid gear to remain dominant in all content, retain it’s fluidity to other content, and allow for an increased internal incentivization / itemization within the m+ and pvp game states. I think this would be healthy to the immediate and long term core to this game, and it feels bizarre to unnecessarily penalize other content to force it into one box so that it can go realistically remain on par with peers within their own enjoyment systems.
It’s not really a nerf but more or less the same it is now. After about 1 month or so and this was in BFA people didn’t need the end of dungeon loot and it was garbage that nobody wanted. People only ran a 15 because they wanted 475 loot in their weekly chest not the end of dungeon drop.
Has it changed from this as before my post, this was my source. I know its beta and things change on the whim so…more for clarification than anything. Again thank you for keeping it civil.
An improvement on the system itself will allow for flourishment of players within their desired interest. I don’t see how that would be bad for the game as long as it doesn’t penalize other communities. Players that do all content, would still have the same relationship with all content. Players that raid only, would still have the same relationship with all content. Players that like to PvP or M+ as their main enjoyment, now would have a full bodied game to embrace, and you may see increasing interest and subscription retainment
This is still current: Max for N: 207 / Max for M+: 210 / (Min for H: 213 / Max for H: 220). I was careless with language around the 7 ilvls, and not accounting for min/max adjustments, my apologies.
Main reason for me personally: M+ feels like it belongs in an ARPG and not an MMORPG. Plain and simple. It screams of D3 loot pinata and thats not what MMOs should be.
I make no claim to be cutting edge in the game, but I think I know enough to express how I feel on the current way things are done with gear so I shall express my opinion.