The M+ nerf is good and raiding should always offer the best gear

Ha look at these pve bois rip each other’s throats out

The only talent to raiding is the ability to tolerate insufferable players. Gave it up and not going back to it. This is a game. There is really no “should” to anything. Everything is at the discretion of Blizzard. If Blizzard wants to treat the non-raiding players as 2nd or 3rd class customers, that’s Blizzard’s business but I don’t think it will help business much. A better decision would be to make the game appealing to a broader base of players by offering alternatives to any particular route to success or just having fun. I thought they’d done a decent job with that over the last couple of expansions, but they choose now to take a big step backwards. That’s totally up to Blizzard, but done at the peril of alienating a lot of people who aren’t going to buy into the raiding mentality no matter what Blizzard tries to force upon them. Gear is just one issue; Shadowlands is unappealing at many levels. Blizzard is going to have a real hard time convincing people that Shadowlands is more fun or more exciting or better in any way than previous versions of the game. Personally sorry that I pre-purchased before seeing the new content. I’ve seen enough in Beta that I know I wouldn’t buy a subscription today and don’t expect to get a lot out of the one I have.

And nowhere did I equate M+15 to Mythic raiding. You are literally lying about what I said.

I am literally trying to agree with you in saying that PvP not having its own gearing system equivalent to M+/Raid has been catastrophic, forcing a dependency upon other content aside from PvP to actually PvP.

It’s not the same as new mechanics, but the way the existing mechanics work and how you are forced to interact with them is very different in, say, +27-30 keys as opposed to a weekly 15.

Things that you can live through in a +15 become instantaneous death. Bad decisions on pulls that would just result in a longer fight for a +15 result in needing to reset a pack. Damage and efficiency become so crucial that above a given threshold you’re forced to bring very specifically tailored specs; there is wiggle room, but not much.

+15s, I would agree, should yield ~ Heroic raid level gear. +20s, probably closer to or at Mythic level, due to the nature of how it scales in difficulty.

It shouldn’t change how you approach them though outside of annyoning stuff that you have to do los crap with. 20s can’t yield mythic difficulty level gear because they aren’t lockout limited and mythic is.

But it actually does change how you approach things. There really are several factors that change drastically in the difference between even +15s to +20s, let alone +15s to +25s or higher. Things that aren’t lethal at +15 become lethal, pulls you can afford to make at +15 become unaffordable/result in failure, etc.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Go ahead and cap off M+ to a few thresholds below the current progression. For the first two weeks of Heroic, cap off M+ below Heroic gear level. For the first two or three weeks of Mythic, cap off M+ below Mythic gear level.

Just don’t neuter M+ gear progression permanently out of some sort of awkward respect for raiders not wanting to do any more content than they need to do for raiding. I’ll quote it once again:

Nowhere in this does it read “you shouldn’t get gear incentives for M+”. It reads “do one form of content if you wish, just be aware that doing more than one form of content might result in a faster pace of gearing”.

You can’t give mythic gear on an non lockout basis period end of story. Also that post actually shows that is exactly their thought process as well. A 7 gives a 213 in weekly chest that is what they are talking about the weekly chest not the end of dungeon chest.

They’ve already pruned down the gear it’s going to give to the point where your average raid clear per week will very likely result in more gear coming your way.

Then again, if you’re not amenable to temporary gear capping so as to not reduce incentive to gear in raids, what exactly would be amenable to you? You’re not proposing solutions, you’re simply playing the role of a “no-man”. M+ truly does have difficulties that are roughly on par with Mythic raiding. Are you trying to tell me that people clearing the first 4-5 bosses of Ny’alotha deserve loot more than people doing +20s? Particularly after the raid gets nerfed down?

They’re talking about the weekly chest for that. So you’re telling me someone who’s getting 10 chances [in Nathria] at gear from running, plus one guaranteed piece at the end of the week, is better off than someone whom [according to datamined information] will only be getting that Heroic-equivalent piece once a week, or will be forced into farming +15s for below-par gear and relying on the weekly chest for gearing?

20s aren’t exactly hard I don’t push hard and have timed multiple. The only option I would be amendable to is a lockout system for gear drops and I would much prefer that when you got to 20s you would instead have gear dropped that had M+ specific bonuses that wouldn’t be active outside of it but would give power on level with or greater than raid gear for M+ specifically

Tell me exactly why people were doing +20 keys in legion before they made higher keys give a chance to drop more loot? Why would anyone ever do anything above a 15 if loot caps at 15? The difficulty of a 30 is significantly higher than that of a 15, but the loot it identical. Why would anyone ever want to do a +30? The answer to all your questions and all of mine is one word… Status.

+20s aren’t exactly hard now. They were definitely not as easy at the beginning of this patch as they are now.

You say that like I’d find it unacceptable. I’d prefer M+ gearing mean more for M+, but Blizzard’s chosen to just go with a generic gear scale.

Or challenge. :woman_shrugging:

Do some people do it for status? Sure.
Some people also do it for the sheer difficulty.

Ya dude lets reward mythic raiding with lfr gear and people will still do it because of status. You are a 5 head. Also way less people did mythic + in legion compared to BFA

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Your analogy is so far off the mark. People pushed keys into the 30’s with the same Ilvl of gear that dropped from 15’s. The gear didnt magically get better the higher they went. How is rewarding mythic with LFR gear synonymous with that ideology? People pushed keys to get IO score and to compete with others around the world. That isnt going to magically change now that gear from M+ has been lowered to heroic level. The raiders who get better gear faster will push higher keys quicker, but then as weekly rewards gear the non raiders they will eventually catch up. The main issue was raiders becoming geared too fast for the recent content. If blizzard tunes for this then guilds who do not chain run M+ wont be able to kill anything for a long time, and if they dont then the top players are left feeling bored and or burnt out. This changes nothing for non raiders who run M+ other than the fact that they might have to endure being invited less frequently for the first few weeks until they catch up to raiders Item level.

So it’s not the gear in M+ that makes people able to push higher, but it’s the gear that enables players to clear Mythic raids. So… One set of rules to suit your preferred style of play and another set of rules for those who don’t? Got it.

Also, you are wrong about “status” it’s more like… “challenge” which in life means why does a billionaire want more money? Why does a gamer seek harder content? Same thing. Status is what you see, challenge is what they feel. Beating that challenge? Accomplishment. Glad I cleared that up for you. Welcome to adulthood.

Better than the no gear they got prior to Legion.

If you’re wanting to be pedantic, sure.

If you’re wanting to be realistic? No. It’s not acceptable for M+ to have a wonky gear scale so as to satisfy the raiding community.

So either don’t make any Mythic bosses freebies like they’ve done for some tiers, or add an extra loot threshold for M+ to get better gear.

No. It’s as it should be now.

why do you care what kind of gear other people have?

In what manner is having a restriction of +15 end-of-dungeon gear being below Heroic item level for the entirety of a tier [to our knowledge] acceptable?

What benchmark are you using for determining this is fine? Is it the same ridiculously antiquated benchmark of believing that all other content should be secondary to raiding?

Doing all forms of content rewards the best gear. Has been this way for a while now, and the weekly chest shouldn’t be lower in my opinion. That takes away from people who like to min max and make the best sets possible. The raid simply doesn’t have enough gear to go around with good itemization, hence needing that weekly M+/PvP cache.

Also while I understand you wanting the M+ end of dungeon rewards to be on par with normal due to how frequently they can be ran, you also need to take into consideration how easy normal raids are. Raids reward the best content because they require the most dedication to accomplish, (well, PvP is arguably harder and higher keys are harder than heroic raid - however Blizz sets the max iLvl cap on M+ so low it doesn’t matter) but normal doesn’t really fit here. The raid is a face roll at that difficulty, and at a point heroic becomes face roll too (also why the iLvl scales up over time in M+).

In my opinion, a good fix would be to scale the M+ and PvP rewards throughout the season and not just at each patch. Keep the key level required for M+ to obtain good gear scaling up throughout each patch. At a point, a +15 isn’t as hard as a Mythic boss. Move the bar to +20 when that happens.