Wait 'til they see the drastic decrease in WoW Token sales. Boosts or carries for Gold is common in every aspect of the game. These changes really nuke the M+ carry desire for both the boosters and the person paying for it. When the higher ups see the financial loss, you can bet this will change.
The company is profitable with the subscriptions alone, but what puts them into the real money is the WoW Token, and I would love to see when they confront Ion.
The last 2 bosses in Mythic Nathria drop ilvl 233.
M+15 weekly chest will have ilvl 226.
7 ilvl is not make or break on the 1-3 pieces of gear you might get from the last 2 bosses.
I am confused here … I thought we knew for sure at this point what the ilvl drops are going to be?
The bottom line here is that M+15 will still get you heroic raid loot, and weekly chest will be mythic raid loot. How is this a problem?
You really think people aren’t going to want to buy carries to keep getting the weekly mythic level loot? And some will be trying to get to the 2 choice option. Plus the carry sellers will be able to get 3 choices every week, so they’ll really be motivated.
this has been a game directed towards end game. It was only in BC that PVPers got some real gear and were able to buy raid gear with out actually raiding. In all honesty PVP and raiding should be separated. you want raid gear then go raid you want PVP gear then go PVP… shouldn’t make it easy for 2 different things
It’s tiring to re-hash this. Raid is now included in the chest. M+ intra-week loot effectively does not exist, raid boss kills are historically ~25% drop chance per kill on personal loot.
Both systems have weekly chest loot
One system has intra-week loot (classifying Loot as powerful enough to be competitive in progression of seasons, instead of clown gear lvls of power). This is the most reduced I can make the entire conversation, and math around it. Without even naming the systems in play, it’s nakedly behaviorally manipulative. Which, to an extent is fine, the discussion here is how out of balance it is. There are solutions, noted above, that can exist for the betterment of the longevity of the game, without artificially wedging players into undesirable content patterns
The issue is the scale of gearing, intra-week raid awards maximally X # of 226, and X # of 233 per player per week. Other systems peak at 210. After a short foray in this, you’ll see Raid geared players casual their way into a dunk fest in every other content system. Which is fine, if there’s a comparable progression system (stated in Blue as design intent) available, which mathematically does not exist in the current game state of Slands
Q&A: Agreed, non endgame progression paths (like dailies, etc) should not award like endgame progression paths. That said, apparently there are 3 endgame progression paths, all I’m seeing is one currently
WoW has always offered the best gear to raiders. It’s a core design of the game and that’s just how it is.
I think I see what you are saying …
So spamming M+15’s only get you ilvl 210 loot (and I think they even reduced the # of drops at the end of each dungeon?)
Whereas raids you can get multiple pieces of loot that are at an ilvl only attainable from the weekly chest from M+, which you will still get if you raid that same level of content because the weekly chest now includes raids… It does seem kind of flawed.
The article I have does not list what ilvl you get from the weekly chest from raiding Mythic content, is that info avail yet?
Exactly, yup. The Mythic raid weekly chest is 226 as well.
They instituted these changes for a reason, and we’re intuiting that it’s because of how the M+ gearing requirement was too punishing to Raiders. Which is an entirely fair criticism, I think the development reaction was poorly executed and shifts the punishment elsewhere for the detriment of game engagement, enjoyment, and longevity. Hopefully there are some other creative solutions in the weeks ahead tested
I’ve been thinking about the gearing paths, and how mythic raid progression and mythic+ progression are so fundamentally different it’s hard to try and normalize the rewards between them without a wonky “only works in X content” scaling system which, to me, is not something I would want to see.
They said raid loot would be reduced as well, but we don’t have numbers so it’s just guessing. If it’s 25% now, maybe 20%? To me that’s likely since 20% is 1 in 5 which is the same as 1 drop in a 5 man.
So if in addition to weekly 226 gear in a chest that both raiding and PvP provide, how can we add a method of getting 226 items during the week similar to mythic raid boss kills?
Maybe it’s a +20 or +24? And you get to loot each dungeon once, it saves your group ID after the first one so you have to keep the same 5 people? And the EOD drop is 1 item to maintain a 20% loot chance? And it’s not cross realm for the first 2 months?
I dunno.
Especially prior to the raid added to the vault, with a 25% chance of loot per boss it would take 4 boss kills to provide the same amount of 475 gear for a 20 person raid as the raid just doing a single mythic+ dungeon.
So early in the tier mythic+ provides the best source of mythic gear, in the middle it evens out, and at the end on farm it provides more. With the idea that the number of guilds able to farm CE is about a million times lower than those able to do a +15 key.
That could definitely work, though I think it would still further incentivize raid requirements to probably be harder on the M+ work. Which, I’m assuming is why this all started (raid not required to m+ as much). What I love about this, is that it gives full endgame parity potential to the system
Unfortunately, I think to solve that problem and improve on the system, it would have to be something like an additional scaling for the content specific (+20 drops a 210 [+X in m+ only]). We’ve seen similar systems before (resilience), that are being at least lightly considered now, with the PvP changes considered (tier set bonus for PvP mode). I think the key to getting this right, would be to honor the fact that Raid gear can remain fluid in all other content, as it holds the most potential for power, and set a bar somewhat lower than that within the other content systems. BIS would likely be a combination of all game modes, but if someone is min/maxing only within their tolerable systems, it’s not so punishing.
Edit: sorry for the rambling, hopefully it’s semi-coherent, don’t have a ton of time atm. Also, always enjoy chats w/ you Argorwal 
I’m sorry but… PVP was an afterthought on WOW at launch and until battlegrounds came out. Please stop the revisionist history. Wow was primarily a PVE Raiding game with some aspects of WPVP if you went to those servers until they introduced battlegrounds, hence why today they still have issues with balancing the game for PVP, it was never meant to be anything but an aside to the game.
ion/blizz want to slow down the amount of time that some one need to gear up, i guess they dont have enoght content, so they easiest way to slow it, is just give the highest gear 2 a week, one in the raid, and the other at the weekly chest. lets say a 25 raid, will drop 2 pieces of gear, even 3, divided by the 25 guys in the raid, even with 8 bosses to begging with the rate is very very low so lets say one piece from the raid that you only do once a week since get locks, and one from the chest. mythic no one will care or maybe at the beginning just to gear for the raid, pvp same, maybe mythic and pvp will only help to get more options in the weekly chest and that’s it.
When it came out… You’re mentioning several months of history of a game that is over a decade old
You need to think on that, the orginial dev’s thought of pvp as a side thought, the game developed for years when them leading the charge, the current devs were brought under the wing of the previous devs… your a smart person, add that up… do you really think devs brought up thinking pvp is a side mini game are going to put an effort into making a good PVP game, the short answer to that would be NO.
It was literally one of their first patches, and was a major system of gearing and content that at the time was utterly dominant as well… Sorry, I’m just not with you on this one…
And I disagree with you… especially since most of the gearing the first few years were pve gear. Shrugs but this is a free country so we can disagree and have different opinions.
lol you dont need to be “good” to do a +2, thats like the equivalent of doing a legacy raid. the requisite to timing a +2 is not having brain damage
You can disagree with me that’s fine
Weekly cache from the highest m+ loot bracket is mythic raid quality. People will be buying carries for that just as much as they do now.