On the old board, I was keeping a running tally of the number of times the Horde PC has been subjected to shame and/or guilt since the pre-patch. Since we have new additions to it, I’m going to bring it onto this new board and give it its own thread.
This is only counting things the Horde PC sees. There’s a ton more in Alliance-side text. I plan to keep adding to this list as more incidents show up.
Before the Storm: Basically all of it.
Dying Sad Elves during the War of Thorns: “I only wanted to defend my home” and “Why are the birds so silent?”
Anduin at the BfL: “It’s killing her own troops,” he says in horror and pity, even in the middle of our defense of our territory. (I don’t count Saurfang or Baine’s lines in this scene because they’re more internal disagreements on how a war should be conducted than actual condemnations aimed at showing the player how bad the Horde is.)
Saurfang in Stormwind stockades telling us that Sylvanas’s Horde (which we have no choice but to be a part of) lacks honor.
The raising of Derek Proudmoore: all NPCs present express horror, to the point that our new ally Valtrois compares us to the Legion.
The “God of War” reference dialogue between the Traveling Warrior and Traveling Son, in which the sweet little orc boy is sad about the elves losing their tree.
During the Stormwind Extraction, Jaina Proudmoore appears, saying we have always been cruel and heartless and ending with a righteous declaration: “You will not harm another soul in this city!” It’s clearly a “hero speech” directed at villains.
Similarly, Delaryn Silvermoon gets the plucky “doomed hero” moment standing up to Sylvanas in the Warbringers video, proudly declaring that she pities Sylvanas and that their hope will live on. Again, it’s so obviously a hero-defying-villain scene.
A more debatable possibility but still worth mentioning: when the Horde PC is in Kul Tiras, the citizens accuse you of murdering Daelin Proudmoore. The Horde perspective—that he was a genocidal maniac who deserved to die—is never given to the Horde PC.
The incursion quest to kill a previously neutral Pandaren healer. On aggro, she says, “This is a place of peace! Have you no respect for the injured?” Her dying line is, “Please … the people here … need … healing … As do you …”
For the quest “The Things They Carried,” the Horde PC is asked to kill three named Alliance NPCs. One, Medic Hunt, drops the item “unsent letter.” Its description reads, “A battered letter, unfinished and unsent, clearly intended for someone back in Stormwind.”
A Nightborne, Alsian Vistreth, says this during an incursion mission: “This… isn’t quite right… When we joined the Horde, I didn’t expect to be doing… this.” (NOTE: I would appreciate confirmation on this one; I saw it reported on the EU board.)
When the Horde PC is using the troll tiki army to plow through the Lightforged, some of them say on death, “What is the difference between you and the witches now?”
Baine in the “Proudmoore Reunion” cinematic: “The Horde has a sickness in it. We wage war while the Earthmother dies. We have forgotten what truly matters, and my heart can bear it no longer."
Atikka Moonchaser, a questgiver for leatherworkers, greets the Horde PC out of the blue with this statement whenever you speak to him: “There may be blood on the Horde’s hands, but there is no purpose in washing them until the Alliance is shattered.”
Shadows Rising has a scene in which Tyrande berates Thrall for the attack on Teldrassil. Thrall has no comeback except to offer to bring her Sylvanas’s head.
The Horde in Elegy is portrayed as violent, uncivilized beings with no respect for anything good and decent. While this is understandable given that it’s from the perspective of Night Elves, it does give the message to Horde-leaning readers that their side is brutalizing the pure and innocent.
Saurfang, in “The Negotiation,” states that the Horde has been corrupt since its very foundation: “That was the great lie upon which the Horde was founded—that anything we did was honorable.” When Anduin tries weakly to reassure him by bringing up Arthas and Daelin, Saurfang responds, “We could not fill the chasm between the Horde and Alliance if we labored for a thousand years.” Anduin doesn’t dispute that. The best the cinematic can offer is that maybe the Horde can do better in future.
I don’t really mind that one. Though with how much in character perspective whitewashing of Daelin blizzard has been doing, I wouldn’t be surprised if people that didn’t play WC3 thought he was a good guy.
Don’t forget the unsent love letter we get off some Alliance marine in a Zandalar side quest. Can’t have the Horde PC killing Alliance without feeling bad now.
i am not sure if you can count 9.
in fact, i think that it should be the opposite. that should be a motivation for the horde player because they know what daelin was trying to do.
kultirans see daelin as a hero regardless if that was true or not.
they literally have statues and memorials about him and they continued their attacks since the end of the third war, tried to do a coup on theramore two times ,deserters tried to push the citizens to be more aggressive with the horde.
i mean, kultiras is probably the biggest enemy of the horde of the alliance nations.so of course their citizens will see daelin as a hero.
i will like to suggest that letter that you found from that random soldier at the start of the war campaign, part of the crew that was chasing talanji one of the mobs dropped a letter, i don’t remember the name exactly, maybe someone can help me with that.
i am curious to see if you are willing to do a list from the alliance side about the horde being “bad guys” because there is a few that i can remember from bfa.
also, one that bothers me the most is anduin in lordaeron.
is almost like he was trying to break the fourth wall “his killing her own troops” * looks at the camera * that is Wrong!"
I debated about whether to include 9 or not, but I ultimately added it because I’m not sure most Horde players do know what Daelin was trying to do. The only way they would find out is if they played Warcraft 3 or read the history books scattered around early in the game. There is nothing in Horde questing to tell you that he wanted to wipe out the Horde.
This isn’t a list of things that make us mad, though. It’s a list of times the game is clearly sending the signal that we, the Horde PC, are doing bad things (ETA: or a member of the “bad faction”) and should feel ashamed.
And overall I dislike that we’ve been put into this situation.
But at least the various Horde characters getting “woke” strikes me more as a call to action and foreshadowing of change, instead of just finger-wagging.
If these characters could just start defending their values, we’d be in better shape.
Most if not all of the actions Horde players can pull off that have an evil tinge to them at least have a choice for those who want to be more good alligned. At least…somewhat of a choice.
My toon didn’t take part in the war of Thorns.
He opted to heal Horde soldiers wounded by the Blight rather than romp out to kill more Alliance.
You don’t have to participate in the WQ killing the pandaren monk healer in Boralus and can still complete the scenario.
During the Horde Patrol of Darkshore before the Warfront, you fight Sira Moonwarden after she ambushes you and defeat her. When Nathanos instructs you to finish her off, you can tell him No (click on him and pick the option).
Point to all of this is that Horde players are given choices in a lot of things to be good or be bad, which is cool as it gives options to those of us who are pro-Saurfang or pro-Sylvanas.
The latter will need these moments I think because eventually, The Horde will likely cease being pro-Sylvanas judging by how things are turning out.
I wouldnt count just not playing during the prepatch as a way to opt out. If thats the case, then you always have a choice, you could just not play the game.
The choice of ‘not playing the game’ or ‘writing yourself out of the story’ is a (profanity) option and the fault lies on the storytelling department. The Horde player shouldn’t be forced to sit through a reprimand of how evil they are when this is the only content to do. We’re here on the forums to get this message across, because this is our only place where we can make our voices heard, short of voting with our wallets and quitting the game.
A big problem of BFA is that it ignores the rules for rulers. Sylvanas is Warchief, but the title of Warchief means nothing if the key people required for getting her orders into motion disagree. If Sylvanas said “BuRn iT!!!” and Saurfang, Lor’themar and Baine said “NO”, suddenly, no-one obeys that order. Their boss disagrees and the only person who supports that play is the Warchief.
Sure, she can get someone else to do it, but with what funds? What soldiers? What officers? Not only does the story disrespect the logistical angle, it completely annihilates the political angle.
Didn’t they make Daelen the “Avatar of Hate” in one of the Death Knight’s Legion quests? Doesn’t sound like someone who they are planning to post up as a heroic icon any time soon, unless they suddenly had a change of heart.
Very little about this expac makes a great deal of sense. I’ve been saying for a while now that Saurfang could have challenged Sylvanas to Mokgora ever since this whole mess started, it’s what he would have done if Blizzard kept him true to his original character, but, sadly, they are opting to drag us through this newest Horde Villainy pig slop.
I’m just hoping there’s still a light at the end of this Sylvanas tunnel.
If I want to be evil I can go play a Sith Inquisitor. I can go shock everyone I come across, wipe out an entire Republic fleet with a single shot of my evil mastermind superweapon, and wipe out all life on Makeb by flooding the remaining pockets of mercenary and refugee spots with lava by disrupting the planet’s core just to make sure no one other than the Empire knows the planet is still habitable so that the Empire can mine the planet’s super-oil.
And instead of shaming me, the game exalted me as the Empire’s greatest hero and put me on the ruling council.
And then I can just play Republic when I feel like being a good guy.
Thanks! Seeing the list here and how it’s getting longer makes me think this is deliberate, but I can’t figure out what the point of it is. Are they changing the Horde to “the evil faction” now, and they want to be sure anyone who still wants to be a good guy knows it’s time to leave? Is it supposed to be a hint that we’re being manipulated by something–azerite, Old Gods, or whatever?
Honestly, this leads me to wonder, why are they having us be pro-Sylvanas at all? If they want us to turn against her, why not just start out that way? Why even make her warchief? Why are they trying to make us turn against Sylvanas of our own free will, when they had no problem forcing us to participate in the burning of Teldrassil?
Not just a woman–a cuddly Pandaren. I’ve added that detail to the description.
Because Blizzards writing is shoddy and inconsistent. Youd get a better sense of cohesion out of a Michael Bayformers flick than Blizz the past couple of months.
WoW was not built on Good vs Evil. It was built on a conflict of interest between two heroic factions. The Forsaken are the only race distinctly marketed with an “evil” vibe, with Goblins somewhere on the fence.
If WoW is going to incorporate “evil” content for “evil” PCs, it should be through optional content, like a Scryers/Aldor rep choice, with one faction being evil and the other good.
But at least SWTOR also gives you the option of being the nicest, most benevolent Sith Inquisitor ever. You can play that faction and still max out your Light Side meter. WoW isn’t giving Horde players the option of being “Light Side Horde” in this expansion.
![:slight_smile:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")