From the Barb Community: DO NOT NERF REND

Screenshots from the 2.6.7 PTR at Blizzcon indicate that the 200% increased damage affix for Rend on Lamentation will be removed.

In the simplest possible terms, this is a humongous nerf, and will nuke the build’s potential.

I am calling on the Barb community and the greater community of D3 players to join me in asking the developers to reconsider.

Barbs have finally been able to feel powerful, even if it’s only with a single build. GR 140 is the new bar for solo. Demon Hunters, Witch Doctors, Necromancers, Wizards, and Crusaders have all achieved such clears, or come very close. The initial 2.6.7 buffs put our Rend build in that ballpark.

The total removal of the 200% Rend multiplier on Lamentation is equal to a minimum nerf of 7 Greater Rift tiers, possibly more considering the build will rely, once again, on Whirlwind to deal a significant chunk of damage. This will make the build more reliant on fishing for proper GR conditions, more frustrating for low-Paragon and early-Season players, and more demanding in terms of gear and rolls. It also completely destroys the potential to use a Rend Barb in speed-experience runs (typically called Rat Runs), and destroys the potential to create new, exciting, and more inclusive party compositions.

Removing a 3x multiplier (200%) absolutely nukes the build into oblivion.

Barbs being able to clear 140+ is not game-breaking. It brings Barbs into the playing field of other classes, and gives Barb players something they have never had the opportunity to experience: a build that is truly, wildly powerful and fun right out of the box.

Look at the global leaderboards. Look how far behind we are!

That is not okay!

Look at Diablo Progress and check the non-Season rankings. Globally, Barbs don’t appear on the board any higher than RANK 298. Our class is such trash that we can’t crack the top 200 clears in the world.

That is not okay!

Wizards and Necros are able to clear 147+ but Barb and Monk should be relegated to 130+??

That is not okay!

All other classes but Barb and Monk are allowed to clear 140?

That is not okay!

A 10K Paragon Barb should be able to clear 140. With the nerf, that same Barb will struggle to clear 133.

THAT IS NOT OKAY!
Here’s some nifty info to help folks realize why Lamentation should not be nerfed at all.

The following is a not-table that shows the top Season and non-Season clears by class across the North American, European, and Asian servers.

╔═══════╦═════════╦═════════╦═════════╦══════════╗
║ Class ║    NA   ║    EU   ║    AS   ║ Averages ║
║       ║   S/NS  ║   S/NS  ║   S/NS  ║   S/NS   ║
╠═══════╬═════════╬═════════╬═════════╬══════════╣
║ DH    ║ 132/138 ║ 133/140 ║ 130/137 ║ 131/138  ║
╠═══════╬═════════╬═════════╬═════════╬══════════╣
║ WD    ║ 135/142 ║ 138/142 ║ 134/138 ║ 135/140  ║
╠═══════╬═════════╬═════════╬═════════╬══════════╣
║ Wiz   ║ 140/143 ║ 138/142 ║ 144/143 ║ 140/142  ║
╠═══════╬═════════╬═════════╬═════════╬══════════╣
║ Nec   ║ 138/138 ║ 138/143 ║ 142/142 ║ 139/141  ║
╠═══════╬═════════╬═════════╬═════════╬══════════╣
║ Sader ║ 136/137 ║ 133/138 ║ 136/137 ║ 135/137  ║
╠═══════╬═════════╬═════════╬═════════╬══════════╣
║ Monk  ║ 130/132 ║ 130/135 ║ 130/134 ║ 130/133  ║
╠═══════╬═════════╬═════════╬═════════╬══════════╣
║ Barb  ║ 130/132 ║ 130/135 ║ 127/133 ║ 129/133  ║
╚═══════╩═════════╩═════════╩═════════╩══════════╝

This is from leaderboard data taken in-game, by region, on 11/9/2019.

I draw several conclusions from this table.

First, Seasonal data should be discarded. The Triune buff, like next Season’s killstreak bonuses, will result in some truly outrageous clears. I didn’t include Paragon here (though I did note it by clear), but non-Season clears, which represent only the most persistent and well-geared players give us a good idea about the parity between classes.

If we take the average non-Season clears of all classes by all regions, we get 137.7, which we’ll round down to 137 since GR clears don’t round up.

So, the average of all classes’ non-Season GR clears is 137.

How do individual classes compare to that in their non-Season clears?

╔═══════╦════════╦══════════════════╦═════════════════════════════╗
║ Class ║  + / - ║ Nerfed in 2.6.7? ║         If Nerfed,          ║
║       ║ Parity ║        Y/N       ║ New + / - Parity (estimate) ║
╠═══════╬════════╬══════════════════╬═════════════════════════════╣
║ DH    ║   +1   ║         N        ║              NA             ║
╠═══════╬════════╬══════════════════╬═════════════════════════════╣
║ WD    ║   +3   ║         N        ║              NA             ║
╠═══════╬════════╬══════════════════╬═════════════════════════════╣
║ Wiz   ║   +5   ║         Y        ║              +4             ║
╠═══════╬════════╬══════════════════╬═════════════════════════════╣
║ Nec   ║   +4   ║         Y        ║              +2             ║
╠═══════╬════════╬══════════════════╬═════════════════════════════╣
║ Sader ║    0   ║         N        ║              NA             ║
╠═══════╬════════╬══════════════════╬═════════════════════════════╣
║ Monk  ║   -4   ║         N        ║              NA             ║
╠═══════╬════════╬══════════════════╬═════════════════════════════╣
║ Barb  ║   -4   ║         N        ║              NA             ║
╚═══════╩════════╩══════════════════╩═════════════════════════════╝

Even with the nerfs, Wizards are still very likely to clear above 140. More important, classes that aren’t getting nerfed are still in the 140+ field: Witch Doctors and Demon Hunters.

3 of the seven classes will clear 140+. Another 2, Saders and Necros, will be on the cusp, and Monk may well be there with the additional buffs to the new set.

If Lamentation is nerfed to 0% (no multiplier) it is a -7 GR loss from the build right out of the gate. If we use the PTR 140 clear as the bench mark–and we will because it is the highest factual clear we have–that lowers the Rend build to 133. Experienced, high-Paragon Barbs may push upwards of 135, making it a 5 tier loss, and perhaps a few will reach 137, making it a theoretical 3 tier loss.

But losing a 200% multiplier is not, as we all well know, a 3 tier loss. And 137 would be, for the very top group of players who push Barb, the current average of all non-Season GR pushes.

In other words, if Lamentation’s multiplier is completely removed, Barbs will be, at their absolute strongest:

  • at or below 2.6.6 non-Season GR averages
  • 5 or more GRs below WDs and Wizs
  • 3-5 GRs below DHs
  • 2-4 GRs below Saders

Is this what buffs are supposed to look like? Consider that right now, at this very moment, Barbs the top Barb clear wouldn’t even rank in most other classes’ top 20. Worse, most folks who play Barb aren’t going to push the build to its limits–they aren’t ever going to come close to the GR 140 accomplished in PTR because that took 10k Paragon and perfect gear.

Oh, that’s right. About Paragon…

Here’s a little food for thought about 2.6.6:

  • The highest NS WD clear at 142 was with 9k Paragon
  • The highest NS DH clear at 140 was with 10k Paragon
  • The highest NS Sader clear at 138 was with 10k Paragon
  • The highest NS Monk clear at 135 was with 7k Paragon
  • The highest NS Barb clear at 135 was with 10k Paragon

My conclusion?

Data isn’t perfect in a game where all these numbers have to contend with GR environments, fishing, gem levels, gear quality, and player skill. What’s more, we aren’t accounting for which builds clear what tier. For example, the 135 Barb clear was done with Vile Charge, one our strongest builds, and a build that relies on “wall-charging,” a gimmicky mechanic in which players get around skill restrictions by repeatedly slamming into walls. For builds that don’t rely on broken gimmicks like wall-charging, the highest actual clear is 130. So, the ability to clear GR 140+ at 10k Paragon is not some crazy outlier that indicates a need for nerfs. It is the new solo standard that almost all classes are approaching or have already achieved, one from which Barbs have been excluded.

Ulmaguest, one of the most accomplished players of several classes on the NA server, sums it up:

So let me get this straight, the main argument for nerfing Rend Barb is that it did a 140 with paragon 10,500 in PTR, and that 140 or higher is “too high” for Barb, and that the only classes where doing 140 is acceptable are Wizard and Necro, because they’re getting nerfed.

That’s the argument, right?

Well now we’ve got three 142 WD clears (one in EU, two on US) and a 140 DH clear in EU. With bullds that will not be getting nerfed in the patch.

So what’s the argument now? That WD and DH are OK for 140 but 140 is too high for Barb?

There’s a clear level of bias in people calling Barb to be nerfed.

We are thrilled that the new Monk and Crusader sets have received considerable buffs to their new sets, and we do not advocate for nerfing other classes in any way, shape, or form. I, and the greater Barb community, hope the devs will reconsider this complete nerf, and we hope that our HOTA and SLAM items will receive additional buffs to make them more competitive.

In conclusion, what do we need?

  • Keep Lamentation’s multiplier
  • Bigger multipliers on Remorseless and Fjord Cutter

Barbs have been garbage for years. Let’s get Barbs into the 140 playground! All it takes is what’s above!

384 Likes

I have advocated for barb buffs. I am glad to see that multiple items for barbs are being buffed this patch. These include:

  1. Wrath of the Wastes
  2. Lamentation
  3. Ambo’s Pride
  4. Remorseless
  5. Fjord Cutter
  6. Bracers of Destruction
  7. Fury of the Ancients

Many had well-justified concerned about extent of the barb buff relative to ww/rend build in particular. For patch 2.6.6, several classes have never cleared a GR 140 in the America/EU/Asia regions in non-season, irrespective of their paragon levels. There are currently 19 players who have cleared 141 or greater in these 3 regions. These represent three classes: wizard, necromancers, and witch doctors. Two of these classes are being nerfed in patch 2.6.7.

I wonder if a reduction in the rend damage affix to a flat 100% would be better than removing the rend damage altogether. It makes sense to me why the extent of the barb buff was reduced but I wonder if it was a bit too extensive. Certainly, you have data analytics that are not available to players and know what your goal is relative to class balance. Many understand that the PTR is the public test realm and things change relative to the preliminary patch notes upon testing.


Irrespective, I truly appreciate your efforts in making new 6 piece class sets, supporting legendaries, and improving class balance as we wait for D4.

20 Likes

Also consider whom actually pushed this build as 10k paragon points is not something a lot will achieve.
I sincerly hope that Blizzard sees this issue and does something before launch. I was so looking forward to play it and Barbarians finally got something going for them.

40 Likes

100% true.

No Seasonal players were going to hit 140.

Non-Season? Sure. But that’s the new bar and has been ever since 5 other classes cracked it. Meanwhile, Barbs and Monks have lingered around the 130 mark.

I hope this is crystal clear to the devs:

140 is the new solo standard.

Barbs and Monks were stuck around 130.

This nerf to Rend is going to keep us around the 130-135 range. That’s not okay.

65 Likes

And I hope your work does not go to waste. Hope you can reach out and perhaps be heard…
Yeah, we are around the same range again. Ww requires so much work to be decent and this was finally a build we could work with.
Was so much looking forward to it cause I couldn’t play ptr. Was even planning on how to level up and so forth with my long lost barbarian

20 Likes

May I step in and wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment. It is extremely annoying after 7 years to be able to be strong again just to have it taken away!
Give it a shot for a season, developers - Geese Louise, then you can re-assess at any point, but give it a chance.

34 Likes

to DEV, guys, when you apply such kind of changes, can you please provide more clear motivation of it. Most of us, players, are disappointed with this change.

Please revert it back and let us finally enjoy with barbs. Originally it was really awsome.

25 Likes

Rend is now even weaker than IK hotA. And we didn’t see any hota/ss buff.

I really hope reverse the nerf. Again, buff HotA/ss by 5 level. double the dmg.

35 Likes

My biggest problem with rend nerf is that now RATS will be king of group speeds yet again. I want rend to be equal to rats in group speeds and if it’s too strong in solo as a result then buff the other classes in solo.

14 Likes

Exactly. Solo players will not have a high tier build to run 100-105+ speed runs.
This game is nothing but a paragon escalator, and its really stupid that paragon determines your lvl of gameplay - but that is what Blizz has enabled by cow-towing to nerf trolls.
Not looking forward to this season or D4 at this point. I skipped S18 as well.

6 Likes

Nice quality post, Free!

I agree with everything you said except this. I feel like barbs are always settling and compromising just to get a crumb while everyone gets a steak.

Bring it back to 200% minimum. I’ve made numerous posts explaining to what feels like everyone, the truth about barb not even being close to OP and that all these other classes are clearing the same if not higher GR’s.

Every single other class except for monk can do 140+gr at 10k paragon. This is a fact.

Current NA Non-Season LB:
Wiz-143-8.8kP-14:11min
WD-142-7kP-14:27min
Nec-138-7.1kP-13:42min
DH-138-9.8kP-12:55min
Cru-137-8kP-14:19min

2 classes are already above 140 with less than 10k paragon. I understand Chantodo is getting nerfed, but it’s only by about 2-3gr’s. The build will definitely still be over 140.

Monk might even be able to do 140 with the new set/buff.

WHY ARE BARBS BEING LEFT BEHIND, ONCE AGAIN?

I thought you heard our war cry?

38 Likes

My friend, we are in complete agreement. But I suspect the devs saw PTR numbers and got spooked. I don’t want to compromise, but if there’s no other choice, I’d rather have a smaller multiplier than no multiplier.

25 Likes

I wish I could say I agree. To me it would just feel like a smack in the face. The lowest I would be happy with is 175%. 150 or less, means the same as zero to me.
10k paragon to do 137 while everyone is doing 137 at 6k and 7k paragon doesn’t sit well with me. This is our patch to become relevant and help class parity.

I’m fighting for all 200% of it.

18 Likes

We definitely want the same thing.

Even if–if–Barbs could do 145 with 200%, that wouldn’t apply to all Barbs. It would apply to Barbs with 9-10k Paragon, and that’s an incredibly small portion of the player base. More casual players benefit most from the 200% multiplier.

But it is, ultimately, out of our control. We can put forth our case, which is what we’re doing here, and hope the devs listen to the arguments from Barbs who know the class and game.

16 Likes

I do agree. Lamentation at 200% will help probably 98% of all barbs. I HIGHLY doubt the build can do 145. Even if it can. There will only be 1 or 2 people that have the paragon, the augments, the best gear and the luck to get the best map to do that.

19 Likes

Yup.

And even if Barbs could do 145, so what?

Really: So what?

Would it be so bad for a class that has been left in the dust for years to finally, finally, be powerful, fast, and fun? Would it really be so bad that Barbs get one Season–one measly Season–to be the OP class?

Barbs have been so bad for so long that we deserve a super powerful Season. So do Monks!

31 Likes

Other class players also consider Lamentation nerf ridiculous and unjustified.

25 Likes

This is the salient question. The same 10k paragon guy did a 145 clear with a wizard in the last 24 hours.

SO WHAT if another class can do the same?

There was absolutely no reason to reconsider Lamentation either in absolute or relative terms.

18 Likes

Anyone else hear the haunting sound of Nelson Muntz from the Simpson’s in their head?

6 Likes

So barbarian got nerf? Seems like i wont play this season too and now i can uninstall d3 forever.

16 Likes