Screw you OP don’t you even dare touch Crusaders or Barbarians. Sick of the crybabies ruining these two classes constantly. Balance does not = fun period. Buff the other classes and sthu simple as that.
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Lol. OP you have some power don’t you?
I think this is the last time I’ll say this: something is going to happen to Barb’s and saders. This isn’t contingent on the community; it’s what blizz said they would do, and what they’ve shown us that they will do.
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Your hate for this Microrna guy must be very strong.
He is one of the few poster in this thread using logical, structured arguments that make absolutly sense. On the other side there is a crowd that argumentation is summerized as this:
“Hell No”
“shut up pls”
“All other were op for nearly 190 years ( true story bro), now it is our time to shine”
“Barb was never good in group play before…” <— one of the most funy ones i read so far.
Your argumentation is logical and well structered too i have to admit that. blizzard should have the data and the knowledge. But you know as good as me, that blizzards decisions werent always perfect. Some just killed builds after the nerfs. So why it is a sin to doubt that blizzard is perfect/ could need some help to find the right direction? A nerf is likely, thats correct. this thread is to aid blizzard that the barb and crusader is playable after the nerfs. It is too bad that the good posts of Pocunut for example arent discussed at all.
to my mind Microrna is just trying to help that the barbs are not getting overnerfed. But his help is interpreted by you as something evil.
As if he is some evil forum mastermind that is trying to conquer the forum and trying to manipulate everyone else. Should he from now on always have a gif of Mini-me from austin powers as signature? Would that make you happy?
Because i like on the one hand beeing ranged and on the other hand to be versitle. Furthermore Sorc and amazone were my two favorite classes in d2. in wow it was Hunter. There was a possiblity of me beeing dh but i chosed wizzard at vanila d3. Last but not least I like to master a class as good as possible and i havent enough time/ I am not good enough to master more than one class on high lv.
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Going with what Blizzard has indicated as their intent for D3:
- Each class has a new set coming and so far we have two.
- There will be changes on the stats of some legendary gear/affixes to match the new sets and PTR’s to test these out. Additionally they have indicated that the next PTR will be a little longer to give room for changes as deemed necessary.
- They have said that this is not something they can click their fingers with and has a systematic approach over time to implement.
- They have said they prefer not to nerf but will if deemed necessary.
My position and interpretation of that is there is no point in making any assessment on anything that needs changing until it is released in PTR and then finally, after everything is in the game, which could be anything up to twelve months.
- Anyone that has ever done a tiny bit of coding knows this is neither a bug-free process, nor is it something you just put up without adequate testing and change/risk management on a production server. That is suicidal.
Goes beyond this thread 
He always sounds reasonable but he has an axe to grind with barbs. And how he presents some of his data is misleading. Not all just some. For example, when he talks about GR125+ clears and that barb has way more than several of the classes combined. Is that because barb is OP and need a nerf or is that a product of barb being one of the most played classes this season? No one on these forums has those numbers. I think many would agree that the number of players playing barb has skewed those 125+ GR clears and makes the situation look worse than it really is.
For laughs. Post this quote below in the barb forums
I don’t think he is evil, I think he is intelligent, but I think he has an agenda and his posts contain a fair amount of arrogance.
He keeps saying that Blizzard has the data and will make the decision and I just question why he continues this crusade if he really believes that.
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I agree. If you look at the thread I created for my era 11 and 12 data analysis, I will quote starting the beginning of my initial post (starting at the second sentence).
I am trying to be as transparent as possible. That is why I provide links to where the data was obtained, how the data was analyzed, limitations of the datasets/potential biases, and quotes to verify what others have written including the game designer in December where he defined Blizzard’s formula about nerfs/buffs going forward. Importantly, I looked at GR efficiency (the way Prokahn analyzed the data) to correct for biases in the number of players.
I would not call it a crusade. As Bubu and/or Poconut noted, there are many players/posters who:
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Either do not know or do not care that Blizzard has given their formula for nerfs/buffs going forward in December (A blog post on game balance is forthcoming soon).
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Do not know the data (such as historical leaderboard/GR efficiency calculations, 4 man meta compositions, or the current non-season leaderboard). As an example, several posters did not realize that crusaders have cleared GR 150 in non-seasons.
If you recall, I advocated against the removal of the rend damage modifier from lamentation during the PTR and thereafter. I suggested a 100% rend damage bonus. During the PTR, I and others deduced that barbs would clear in non-season GR 144-146 with rend @ 200%. The current non-season solo leaderboard has a GR 146 clear with rend @150%.
I have advocated for game balance often including nerfs to wizard pre-patch 2.6.7 and now crusaders. It is not about barbs. I feel that there is observational bias. Did you know that the very, very first thread after the bazooka build was discovered, it asked Blizzard if it was an exploit. Although they answered no at the time, I advocated for a nerf even then as I foresaw the true power of the build even before its widespread adoption.
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I am DH only player with 7k hours on DH and I have different opinion than you. That’s why I asked for some numbers.
Blizzard has different opinion than you also as they said they know that DH is underperforming in general.
Maybe DH is good for what you are using it right now. Please share details… I want to know on what you are basing you opinion on.
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Awesome. I am like that also and I know there are other players like us too. I was ranged in almost any RPG I played.
I like to master a class as good as possible
This 101%
Making one build for class too OP kind of ruins the class. Lol ,please don’t nerf ww barb took 7 years just to get a decent build for dps. I think once season theme is done with you will prob see what ww is. With no Panda buff and no shrines in rifts the builds going to suffer,well for casual players that don’t like fishing it will 
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That is true but it better Saders/Barbs then chase the Wiz game. They really need to fix groups period. This season with ww barb was as bad as following a dh or a wiz all are dead? Just no resources left for groups to keep up if they fall behind? Group snergy is moot as it is.
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I am still waiting for you to post repeatedly. “The developers have spoken in relation to tnerfs and buffs.”
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I am waiting for Blizzard to create a FUN POLICE department that these users can join who are calling for NERFS when they dont even play anything close to ENDGAME
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I think nerfs would be better. I am way more end game than you are, so your opinion doesn’t matter.
Incoming Fun Police . Watch Out
To be precise whole topic where “balance formula” was posted was deleted long ago for unknown reason.
OP no trust … masked profiles
People want to spoil the game ,on this forum
I see a lot of false profiles or even masked profiles request nerf
Things are getting muddy in here what with alts chiming in and people mistaking Paragon with end-game content. Let me help clear things up.
Historically, nerfs are usually only doled out for one of two reasons.
- A build makes use of an unintended mechanic or exploit
- A build supersedes their expectation in terms of GR clear potential
The first one is out–Rend has always procced AD, but it was never used because Rend never did worthwhile damage before. So, people are pointing at the second one, via Cederquist’s posts, and foaming at the bit for some Barb nerfs.
And, as usual, the Fun Police may have neglected to consider context.
Why did AOV get nerfed on release? Was it because it was clearing 150? Or was it that plus the conditions in which it could clear 150? I’m willing to wager both. I don’t think Cederquist’s guidelines are meant to be taken as black or white, and by that I mean whether or not something will be nerfed has much to do with the context of its performance.
AOV Saders were doing 150 within 2 days of release, often with terrible gear and surprisingly low Paragon. Performance with the set didn’t ramp up. It went from 0 to Mach 5, and it did so with suboptimal gear, suboptimal gameplay, and suboptimal gems. The set allowed Saders to bypass many of the game’s intended checks and balances; another way to think of it might be to say that the AOV set allowed players to do away with the intended through-line of gameplay (Rifts for keys/gear, GRs for upgrades, all of which culminate in incremental advances in GR clear potential). In other words, the un-nerfed AOV set through 90% of the game out the window and let players jump right to the finish line.
In some ways, the nerfed AOV set might allow some players to tap into certain aspects of that. Remember, I do not support a Sader nerf, so I don’t really care.
However, the situation with Barbs is very different.
In its current state, Rend is not strong enough to allow players to circumvent the game’s systems and jump to the end. Players don’t gear a Zodiac Rend Barb in non-Season, then cruise to 135-145.
For non-Season players, the journey is incremental, and requires practice with the build, gear upgrades over time, gem upgrades, and an absolute ton of fishing. Players cracking 145+ aren’t casually hopping into GRs and twiddling their thumbs. They’re burning hundreds upon hundreds–likely thousands upon thousands–of keys just to get single playable rift. They need GG gear and gems, they need a deep understanding of the build and its mechanics, and they need to invest the time to fish.
In other words, when Zodiac Rend clears 146, it’s not because the build or its items are overpowered. It’s the natural progression of skilled players with excellent gear and resources and the time and dedication to fish and fish and fish and fish, all of which is the culmination of dedicated game play and adherence to the game’s primary gameplay loops. No shortcuts were taken. For Rend, there are no quick and easy routes to success. It just so happens that if you have 8-10k Paragon and are willing to grind out the gear, the gems, and the rifts, you, too, can have success with the build, because it’s very strong.
It’s taken some folks from the time the updated items were released until now to achieve what they’ve achieved, and even then, the achievements of the highest Paragon players has become a ridiculous kind of metric for the build as a whole.
You don’t have hundreds of players cracking GR 145.
You do, however, have hundreds cracking GR 125, something that isn’t easy in non-Season if you’re under 3k Paragon. Take it from me.
I don’t think that Cederquist is saying that is worth nerfing.
I think he’s saying that getting there by sidestepping the gameplay loops–by cutting in line, so to speak–is worth nerfing.
So, we got the Fun Police running amok in here, calling for nerfs, claiming Rend is too strong because it’s a little outside Cederquist’s post about +/- X GRs, blah, blah, blah, all without considering additional context, and, ultimately, foaming at the bit to ruin other people’s fun in the name of “balance.” This is sad. It’s also the wrong way to go about things.
Outside of the first point above, asking for nerfs is asking for the devs to make the game less fun and enjoyable for many players. Y’all can try to paint that a million different colors, but it is what it is, and that’s precisely what you’re doing. It’s doubly obvious when none of y’all have been able to directly and succinctly answer the question I posed in previous posts.
Instead, you should be focused on asking for buffs for the things you enjoy. That’s a much more productive way to go about things. It doesn’t engender ill will, and it doesn’t give others the (correct) impression that you thoroughly enjoy taking a dump on their enjoyment.
But Fun Police gonna Fun Police, I suppose.
Here’s hoping the devs see it clearer than those clowns.
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So what are Blizzard’s current idea about GR clear potential for players with high paragon and great gear whose top clear includes fishing for a good rift? This is a rhetorical question as you and I already know the answer to this question.
The current iteration of crusaders are +9 GRs above their target in non-season.
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I know reading is hard, but do try and read the entirety of my post. There’s a lot of good words in there. A little short on numbers, I know, but snuggle up with a blanket and some ocean sounds and you’ll get through it A-okay.
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I read your post in its entirety. You stated that historically Blizzard nerfs for 2 reasons. I simply asked if for crusaders, if their current GR clears exceed Blizzard’s posted expectation for GR clears?
I do not want to discuss barbarians with you. I want to focus on a more obvious outlier.
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