Shadowlands Compiled Feedback Thread

Hey y’all, making a thread like I once did for Mists and Warlords (didn’t get into BFA Beta, also wasn’t really playing at the time), compiling all the changes/new stuff for warlocks and compiling feedback in an efficient manner for the devs. Especially given that once beta goes out and given the world situation, feel like it’s gonna be a particularly long beta with many iterations.

If any mod wants to sticky so I don’t have to bump and to make me feel good about myself during this ongoing plague, and to let warlocks feel like someone relevant is reading our centralized feedback I’m painstakingly centralizing, that’d be cool :smiley:

So

Official Alpha Testing Closed Forum Thread (only Alpha Testers can post):

Official Covenant Abilities (last update April 16):

  • Scouring Tithe (Kyrian) - Deal Arcane damage instantly and additional Arcane damage over time. If the enemy dies while affected by Scouring Tithe, you generate additional Soul Shards. If they survive, Scouring Tithe’s cooldown is refreshed.
  • Impending Catastrophe (Venthyr) - Call forth a cloud of chaotic anima that travels to the target enemy, dealing Shadow damage to enemies within their path. When the anima reaches the target it explodes, inflicting a random Curse and dealing Shadow damage to all nearby enemies.
  • Decimating Bolt (Necrolord) - Hurl a bolt of shadow magic at your target, dealing Shadow damage and increasing the damage of your next Incinerates, Drain Souls, or Shadow Bolts. Decimation Bolt’s damage, and the bonus to Incinerate, Drain Soul, or Shadow Bolt both increase as your target’s health decreases.
  • Soul Rot (Night Fae) - Expend some of your health to wither away all life force from your current target and up to 3 additional targets nearby, causing them to suffer Nature damage over 8 seconds. Additionally, casting Drain Life will also hit any enemy affected by your Soul Rot .

Official Class Changes (last update April 7):

General Changes
All Warlocks will be able to afflict their foes with Curse of Tongues , Curse of Recklessness, Curse of Weakness, and Curse of Doom. In addition, Warlocks can manipulate space with Demonic Circle.

Tongue Tied is a new Talent that empowers spells lobbed at targets suffering from Curse of Tongues, causing them to seal the victim from receiving healing effects, forcing them to succumb to all incoming damage for a moderate amount of time

Affliction
Unstable Affliction sacrifices its stacking effect to torture its victim longer, and all without consuming a Soul Shard. Affliction Warlocks can exacerbate the malaise they sow with Malefic Rapture , a new ability that deals damage to all enemies afflicted by their periodic spells (increased for each periodic effect on the target).

New Talents will be available for Affliction Warlocks to more effectively drain away the life from their victims. Sow the Seeds will now embed two additional seeds into nearby enemies which—combined with the new Malefic Rupture ability—can make for explosive results.

Demonology
Dark Pact will now scale with Spell Power to deal more damage than ever before. Demonology Warlocks will also discover that the Dark Fury Talent has a new effect—in addition to the cooldown reduction it provides, it empowers Shadowfury by increasing its area of effect as the spell crashes down on in the battlefield.

Destruction
Fire and Brimstone is getting an upgrade in Shadowlands, as it now generates 2 Soul Shard Fragments for each additional enemy struck by the Warlock’s empowered Incinerate.

Datamined Changes (last update May 6)

Summary of Changes:
  • Curse of Tongues returned as baseline
  • Curse of Recklessness returned as baseline
  • Curse of Weakness returned as baseline
  • Curse of Doom returned as baseline
  • Demonic Circle returned as baseline
  • New Talent: Tongue Tied, “empowers spells lobbed at targets suffering from Curse of Tongues, causing them to seal the victim from receiving healing effects, forcing them to succumb to all incoming damage for a moderate amount of time”
  • New PVP Talent: Amplify Curse, which amplifies curses with a secondary effect on the target. Curse of Recklessness adds Curse of Exhaustion (70% slow for 8 seconds), Curse of Tongues adds adds Curse of Weakness (unable to critically strike).

Affliction changes:

  • Unstable Affliction now lasts longer, can no longer stack, does not consume a Soul Shard
  • Malefic Rapture causes periodic spells to tick faster
  • New Talent: Sow the Seeds, additional two Seeds into nearby enemies

Demonology changes:

  • Dark Pact now scales with Spell Power more
  • Dark Fury tweaked to make the area of effect greater for Shadowfury

Destruction changes:

  • Fire and Brimstone tweaked to generate 2 Soul Shard fragements for each additional enemy struck by the Warlock’s incinerate

Summary of Feedback (both wants and needs, last content update May 31, last wording update May 21)

Sources of concepts:

  • Council of Black Harvest Discord (Lock One Stop Shop)
  • WoW Official Forums
  • MMOC Forums
  • Some Streamers/Guide-makers/Simcrafters on various Discords and Twitch stream (e.g. Council of Black Harvest Discord, folks like Kalamazi and FinalBossTV, as much as I have time for lol)
  • Rarely but sometimes Twitter and Reddit

Regarding General Needs, or Questions

Most talents are not actually a free choice between eachother in a competitive PVE/PVP setting. Burning Rush being on our “Defensive” Talent Row when it comes at a heavy health loss does not make sense, for example. The fact Soul Conduit is not on the last row for Demonology is also strange.

While it’s great flavorwise that Corruption has returned for all specs, at the moment it only has meaningful interaction with Affliction’s rotation specifically via Seed + Malefic Rupture or with the Nightfall Talent. There needs to be some mechanism of interaction for Corruption (Curse of Doom at least possibly summons a demon). It would suck if we are forced to cast it for the sake of significant DPS increase but it literally does nothing at all in the spec. A suggestion on this front is that for Demonology, there is an x% chance to spawn an Imp (to keep with the indirect interaction nature of Affliction) and for Destruction to maybe proc a stack of Backdraft (ibid). Not to mention given the current turning on Corruption (and Doom), it is literally not worth using either ability at all as it’s not worth the cast time/duration vs damage.

There appears to be a datamined aura for Shadowflame (originally a conal Shadowflame breath that disoriented our enemies, now appears to be an instant spell with 2 charges that generates a Soul Shard, which is from Legion), will that be in fact returned? Would be extremely good.

A warlock interrupt is long overdue outside of Felhunter. We are the only class with a pet-dependent interrupt, which if we are Demonology comes often at an inability to use one or two Talents. Alternatively give the Felguard/Wrathguard an interrupt. This will be expanded on in various sections, particularly in the Demons and Demonology section.

In general it’s clear it’s harder to “unprune” abilities for Warlocks due to a lot of our toolkit changing expansion to expansion or having been around for many expansions but removed one or two expansions ago. But there’s a lot of abilities that would return “class flavor”, such as Fel Armor or Demon Armor returning as baseline, or removing the Healthstone CD for self-heals, or even smaller quality of life abilities that Soulshatter.

If we’re discussing the GCD, can we please have Burning Rush put off the GCD? Can that be considered.

Regarding Curses:

Only one curse can be applied per target, but can only one curse of each time be used, i.e. can we put the same curse on multiple targets? This question leads to the ask of if we can have Curse of Enfeeblement (ie both Curse of Weakness and Curse of Tongues rolled into one) to reduce “bar bloat”, or if there’s a reason why they must be separate.

Why isn’t Curse of Shadows returning? As it is parallel to Curse of Weakness.

The fact that Curse of Doom takes one whole minute to tick, and only summons a Doomguard if the target dies specifically from Curse of Doom, and a 5% chance even if that occurs, AND this Doomguard now needs to be enslaved regardless unless one picks the Improved Doom Talent specifically as demonology, doesn’t make sense and feels extremely gimmicky. Curse of Doom should be returned to a max 45-60 second duration with a 30-ish second tick that summons an already enslaved Doomguard on an X% chance (more than 5%).

Additionally, if we use Enslave Demon on the Doomguard, it will presumably replace the demon we have out, which in turn means the loss of our Felguard if Demo and possibly the loss of an interrupt if it is needed. What abilities does this enslaved Doomguard have? Will it have an interrupt? Guaranteed DPS increase, or at least equal to the other demons? Will it interact with the Demonology Talents that depend on having a Felguard to even function at all?

Suggestion: Improved Doom Talent removed, make Doom tick faster and the Doomguard chance either increased and turned into an auto-enslaved guarddian or removed outright (thus more easily balancing the DoT, honestly probably better to axe the Doomguard), and replaced with something else, perhaps an Azerite Trait that could become a Talent. Another more radical opinion is to remove Doom outright entirely 100% axe it.

For a lot of fights, having both Curses on the boss is probably going to be important. This forces either the PVE players to either pick one curse over the other (which affects progression) and have only one warlock or forces them to have two warlocks. A lot of the community thinks it is prudent maybe to have the “one curse per add” rule be lifted regarding bosses, at least to provide flexibility.

Another suggestion is to not allow Curses on bosses period full stop, or at least raid bosses, but then the same rule would have to apply to other classes as well, and create a functionality difference between classes with Group Buffs being essential but classes with Target Debuffs being non-essential.

Impending Castrophe in alpha right now overwrites the current Curse on the target, and it also doesn’t “smart curse” (to use Kalamazi’s language, i.e. caster targets get Tongues, melee targets get Weakness).

Additionally, Tongue Tied is a PVP Talent. It doesn’t make sense for this to be a PVE Talent. It makes more sense to add this to the now shorter list of PVP Talents and make one Azerite Trait per spec into a Talent. Alternatively it’s been suggested, since that row is Darkfury (Stun buff), Mortal Coil (Horror + Heal), to return something like Howl of Terror or the MoP Demonic Circle Glyph (Eye of Kilrog can cast Demonic Circle), to keep with the “help get something away from you” theme.

Regarding Demons:

Increasing Demon summoning cast time to 6 seconds does not make sense given:

  1. our demons remain extremely “squishy” due to a significant loss of damage mitigation/armor increases over the past few expansions, in particular for Felguard/Wrathguard and Voidwalker/Voidlord, and

  2. unlike Hunters that have two ways to heal their pet (Feed Pet, which is instant for 50% of the pet’s health with a 10 second CD, and Mend Pet that heals 25% over 10 seconds with a 10 second CD) our only way to heal our pet is Health Funnel that makes us lose health (sometimes significantly depending on how hard the demon is being hit that requires us to channel continuously). Historically also there was an expectation that warlocks could and should be able to switch demons depending on utility with a modicum of ease, ergo our lack of a baseline warlock interrupt.

If 6 seconds is to remain, then certain changes have to also come from a quality of life and toolkit perspective. A recommendation here is to reduce the summoning cast time for demons back down, and/or to increase our demon’s (or at least, the Felguard and Voidwalker) “tankiness” back to a semblance of what it used to be. Alternatively, give us another ability (that is instant cast) to heal up our demon (sacrificing imps for health? “Blood Offering” or something), or instant resummon our demon on a CD, such as the Flames of Xoroth ability (1 min CD, instant resummon), Demonic Rebirth (2 min CD, 20 second aura reducing cast time by 50%), or Fel Domination (3 min CD with a 5.5 second cast time reduction).

Likewise a lot of feedback questions the exclusive presence of an interrupt on the Felhunter, especially with regards to Demonology where if we choose or need to use any demon besides Felguard/Wrathguard, then both Demonic Strength Talent and Soul Strike Talent become unusable.

A recommendation on this front was perhaps allow Demonology Warlocks to have two demons out, one main and one “lesser”, and another button Command (Lesser) Demon. Or alternatively have Call Felhunter from the PVP Talent list be baseline for Warlocks. Or a combination. It does not make sense that in the current game design with Mythic+ being a good chunk of what even the casual playerbase participates in, that we are the only class that must sacrifice DPS for an interrupt.

Related to the Great Unpruning and demons, it is sometimes easy for our tank Demons to lose threat, especially in a PVE setting; it would be nice to have Soul Shatter returned. Soul Shatter as an ability was a great “save the day” ability in dungeons, and likewise would be a great Quality of Life improvement for the casual/PVE playerbase.

Likewise, would be nice to have the demon-related buffs back, e.g. Blood Pact. Maybe even diversify the buffs so Warlocks have greater utility.

There’s a minor problem with Guardian Pet AI, where Darkglare will often will keep pulling mobs after killing the last target you’re in combat with.

Any chance of Voidwalker getting its Disarm ability back, maybe with a reduced effect (it was an 8 second Disarm)?

The glyphs that turn our demons into the old version of Grimoire of Supremacy Talent’s demons (e.g. Felguard to Wrathguard) sadly also revert our summon animation to the old version as well. Instead of the cool fel or shadow or void dripping from our hands, using the glyph causes the purple cube thing to appear above the warlock.

Regarding Covenant Abilities

The Covenant Ability Decimating Bolt reads as strong enough to be the likely default choice for everyone in raiding/PVE/mythic, given the importance of execution phase when progressing. Looking forward to values/testing, but this is a concern.

Warlock Covenant Abilities don’t feel Warlocky. Why can mages turn into Liches and warlocks get a DoT? The fantasy isn’t there.

Likewise for every other class there is often integration of the ability more meaningfully into our rotation, engaging with their other spells. The same cannot be said for warlocks. Can there be greater interaction between the Covenant Ability and the actual rotation?

Soul Rot having a health cost of 20% while it is also a channel that is thus interruptable over a not particularly short duration means it is simply unappealing in both a competitive PVE and PVP context. As opposed to Scouring Tithe or Impending Catastrophe. Maybe a middle of the road solution of some sort? There really shouldn’t be a health cost this grave, or at all, as we are at the moment the only class with a Covenant Ability that comes at a health cost.

There isn’t a lot of confidence in the possibility of Warlocks who play certain content to not be forced to take certain covenants for the sake of toolkit or DPS. Locking players out of better AOE or better Single Target isn’t good, especially given these abilities will result in different values due to different playstyles in different settings (PVP, Raiding, Mythic+, etc) and tuning for one may break it for the other.

Regarding PVP

What PVP Talents will replace the Curses that are now baseline?

Tongue Tied reads as a PVP Talent, why is it in PVE Talents?

Similar to the earlier Demon survivability/mitigation issues, Fel Lord Talent demon is too easy to kill.

The announced change to Dark Pact doesn’t make sense as it implies it’s an offensive CD when it’s a defensive CD. Do the devs mean to say that an SP-based multiplier will be applied to the health sacrificed for the shield? Please fix the tooltip.

Likewise if many classes are regaining a number of abilities that were baseline as baseline, is there a chance to gain back any of our damage mitigation abilities that were once baseline? For example Demon Armor, or Demon Skin, or a return of a previous iteration of Soul Leech, or a return of Soul Link? Likewise, could our Health Stone have a reduced cooldown and ability to be used multiple times within the same combat when used by the warlock exclusively, given our Demons at the moment remain just as “squishy” while having an increased cast time? At least within a PVP setting for warlocks. The generalized concern is Warlocks lost a lot of our “Tankiness” between loss of baseline “Armors”, limitation of Health Stone, loss of Soul Link dynamics, and need to be returned.

Alternatively, if tankiness can only be returned partially, then our default CC and mobility toolkit could be returned. Mortal Coil could be baseline once more and Howl of Terror could be returned to Warlocks. There hasn’t been much talk regarding Demonic Gateway outside of its functionality for some Mythic groups and Raids and some PVP instances. Others also suggested reducing the CD and cast time for Shadowfury. Another suggestion is bring back Blood Horror.

Regarding Affliction

The revamped return of Malefic Rupture is generally agreed to be good, especially its dependence on number of DoTs rather than interacting with ticks. In fact some are wondering if there’s a way to integrate some aspect of this with Deathbolt, since as it stands Deathbolt is difficult to line up.

At the same time, with the recent Deathbolt nerf, and the changes to the spec in Shadowlands clearly moving Affliction away from “burst”, maybe Deathbolt should be removed, especially given it’s power now is drastically reduced with the removal of UA stacking + Darkglare extension combination. The loss of UA stacking also makes the Darkglare significantly weaker as well.

There is a disconnect between Malefic Rupture’s awesomeness and it’s graphics/visuals. Can this be changed at all? Make it look as powerful as it feels? Maybe shadowy-blood explosions? Anything really?

Malefic Rupture is unaffected by mastery, to mastery’s “weight” will go down.

There is currently debate among warlocks as to whether Shadow Bolt filler is better or Drain Soul filler, but many are leaning towards desiring a return of Drain Soul being the filler given the “return” of Malefic Rupture, so as to have a clear spell during encounters for execute phase while maintaining Corruption (instant), Agony (instant), Doom (instant), Unstable Affliction (has cast time), and Malefic Grasp (has cast time). A filler with a cast time while we have two of our primary spells (Unstable Affliction and Malefic Rapture) have a cast time, and three if we spec into Haunt, four if we spec into Vile Taint or Phantom Singularity, and if we spec into Siphon Life (all of which is probable given Malefic Rupture interaction with number of DoTs) spring us to a total of eight spells of which three have a cast time, is not good. That’s a lot of GCDs in addition to the cast times of Unstable Affliction, Vile Taint (which is now superior in many instances against Phantom Singularity), and the Malefic Rupture spender.

Alternatively others prefer Shadow Bolt due to the nature of interrupts/silences in a PVP setting; this could be remedied however by baking into Nightfall changing the filler from Drain Soul to Shadowbolt. Doing so would open up a Talent slot which could easily be an Azerite Trait that affects our rotation, such as Inevitable Demise making Drain Life a part of our rotation, but perhaps in a less strong way. Maybe Malefic Grasp visual could return to differentiate Normal Drain Life from Inevitable Demise Talent Malefic Grasp.

Affliction build up appears to be extremely long and maintenance unreasonable to allow for a castable filler baseline. Return Soul Swap in some capacity, rebuilding dots on a target is tedious and a big time sink especially if we’re also getting Doom back; alternatively return Soul Burn:Soul Swap from ye olden days in some capacity (we doubt both would be returned). Replace Shadowbolt filler with a Drain Soul filler, maybe if Soul Swap is returned make the talent spot be a “Empowered Soul Swap” and make it a CD that puts all our primary dots on the target.

As it stands with Writhe In Agony, Agony takes 30 seconds to stack.

Affliction AOE remains problematic. While the changes are a step forward, increase the numbers of Seeds to three and increase damage, given the resource cost and the lack of a direct way to gain that resource outside of RNG DoT ticks. There are also qualms about Seed of Corruption casting time remaining too long as well. Also there’s a concern that the new Sow the Seeds is bad because it makes the baseline ability worse.

Having a majority of damage centered on burst via Darkglare for Affliction does not make sense. In addition considering that for maximum burst damage one is obligated to choose the Deathbolt Talent, the majority of Affliction’s damage should be on our DoTs and proper sustainment of them. In general Darkglare is not popular, both from a fantasy perspective (Affliction was historically never centered on demons per se, and fit somewhere inbetween the Void-centric fantasy of Shadow Priests and the Shadow/Death-centric fantasy of Unholy Death Knights once they came out) and from a gameplay perspective for this reasons. A suggestion is to remove Darkglare all together, and perhaps make Dark Soul baseline once more. Alternatively, not having a baseline DPS cooldown (or at least not such an extreme one) and returning power to the sustainment of our DoTs. Similarly the loss of UA stacking also makes Death Bolt significantly weaker.

Affliction used to be centered on sustained damage, Destruction on burst damage, and Demonology as a sort of inbetween with now the added flavor of “master summoner”. At the moment Affliction’s damage is centered too much on burst, and too centered on the obligation of taking certain talents due their being DoTs on CDs.

Limiting Unstable Affliction to being only castable on one target when the stacking aspect has been removed feels too limiting. Is the intent here to remove the cleave aspect to Affliction, as it used to be where Aff was more single target, Demo more AOE, and Destro cleave-centric?

Additionally the healing provided by Drain Life and Siphon Life simply does not feel significant. Can this be buffed?

Regarding Haunt, while Malefic Rupture is welcome and many are excited, there doesn’t seem to be a big differentiation between Haunt and Unstable Affliction. It has been proposed to increase the damage % increase and the CD on Haunt and simply make it a DoT to make it more meaningful and different from UA, or alternatively remove the damage % increase on UA and buff the damage, to balance against Malefic Rapture as both are spenders and orient MR to AOE and UA to ST.

There is zero interaction with Shadowbolt and the rest of the rotation. Some are under the impression we are the only class whose filler has no interaction.

Any chance of Malefic Grasp, even as a visual, returning?

Regarding Demonology

If both Infernal and Observer are instant cast, why isn’t Demonic Tyrant?

Alpha testing has shown that neither Felstorm nor Implosion is affected by the new target cap equation for many other AOE. Is that intentional or was it just not implemented for warlocks yet?

Hand of Gul’dan’s imps are staggered when they spawn rather than spawn at the same time, which affects timing when summoning Tyrant. If you wait for all three to spawn, the first one is about to despawn or does when you finally get the Tyrant cast off.

While there appears to be a datamined aura for a return of both Demonwrath (the AOE damage that radiated from our demons) and Demonic Breath that has a chance to generate a Soul Shard, this isn’t on the abilities list so far. Will this be returned? While the interaction between Implosion-Hand of Gul’dan-Power Siphon Talent is okay, Demonology really needs a baseline AOE again, and perhaps Demonwrath is the way to go. Alternatively others have suggested making Bilescourge Bombers baseline, and reworking the Talent to affect duration and/or radius of Bilescourge Bombers. Yet others have suggested returning Hellfire as well as Demonwrath, at least for the sake of flavor for the class (even if realistically Hellfire wouldn’t be used over any of the other abilities, save for legacy and solo legacy runs).

Inner Demons as a Talent doesn’t scale with haste on a 1:1 level, while the other two talents in the row do, given that the Inner Demons timer doesn’t scale by haste. Demonic Consumption Talent is too incentivized given Hand of Gul’dan and Implosion tuning. From The Shadows Talent only affects Hand of Gul’dan and Demonbolt, doesn’t affect Dreadlash. Inner Demons Talent’s demons aren’t energy based, which means they lose DPS running to the target; make them energy based.

Doom damage on Alpha is worse than on live, on top of the variety of issues already mentioned at the beginning. A suggestion here given Doom was Demo-only for two expansions as revert it to MoP/WoD design, with tick rate of 15 seconds, spawning one imp each tick. Doom problems are expressed at length in the Regarding Curses section.

Alterntively given Corruption has zero interaction with both Demonology and Destruction, maybe Demo’s nuance to Corruption is x% chance to spawn an imp per tick.

It is strange that Soul Conduit remains on Tier 6 Talents for Demonology while remaining Tier 7 for both Affliction and Destruction. There is a general consensus that in terms of interplay between Shadowbolt filler and summons, it would be good for Sacrificed Souls to be baseline; this would allow Soul Conduit to be on Tier 7 like the other two specs. In this case, given T6 Inner Demons is about summoning demons adn Grimoire Felguard is about summoning a demon, whereas T7 Demonic Consumption is Tyrant-centric, move Nether Portal to T6 Talents and add Azerite Traits as Talents, such as the much-asked-for Baleful Invocation, that deeply helps with Demonology feel.

Please diversify the demons summoned by Hand of Gul’dan so that we may not feel like Imp Mothers. Being surrounded by a dozen imps and two dogs isn’t as powerful as perhaps others expect when one is in theory a master summoner that has as of now taken down the whole Burning Legion with our own personal pocket world/dimension with an army of demons literally at our disposal.

Nether Portal Talent has been a lot of fun, both in terms of flavor and gameplay, both for PVE and PVP, but is there a way to rework it slightly to make the summoning aspect more efficient? For example, 1 demon per soul shard rather than per spell that spends soul shards. Additionally in some PVP scenarios the Nether Portal gets LoS’d and doesn’t summon anything.

Demonic Strength and Soul Strike Talents are likewise popular talents, but really seals us into Felguard/Wrathguard. This in turn affects the aforementioned lack of a baseline interrupt. Could DS and SS Talents be altered slightly to give an ability to other Demons of equal DPS so we can have more functional utility as Demonology Warlocks, rather than being forced to sacrifice our choice in talents or our DPS for the sake of an interrupt?

Alternatively rework Demonic Strength and Soul Strike so they apply to any demon (e.g. Demonic Strength could simply be a sort of Immolation Aura on the pet, Soul Strike can just be “demon strikes the targets soul”).

Regarding the particular and specific problems of Demonology not having a baseline interrupt given the way 2 of our Talents are Felguard specific, the primary solutions being articulated are:

  • Give Warlocks an interrupt as a whole, on par perhaps with Axe Toss (ie 30 second CD) with a shorter counterspell duration. Pros: Freedom. Cons: Goes against historical design, which Blizzard has For Very Important Reasons Unknown To Us Players™ or something.
  • Give an interrupt to Axe Toss. Pros: Ability is already there. Cons: baking both abilities into the same CC that is our historic Stun affects us negatively wrt diminishing returns.
  • Give Demonology only, or even Warlocks as a whole “Call: Felhunter”/Grimorie: Felhunter baseline; we’re Master Summoners right? Cons: Clearly affects PVP Talents dynamic.
  • Give Demonology, the Master Summoner™ Class, two pets as Beastmaster does, but in our case only one of each type of Demon is possible, and give us a “Command Lesser Demon” button. Pros: would be cool, simple as, fits the fantasy, breathes life into the spec. Cons: Probably way more Dev Time.
  • Rework Demonic Strength and Soul Strike to general demon talents. Pros: Frees us from DPS loss for an interrupt whether by no-Felguard the entire fight or summoning for 6 seconds in the fight. Cons: Again, Dev Time, and also particularly affects the Class-Fantasy-Legacy-vs-Design dynamic as Felguard is historically the Demo demon.

Making Baleful Invocation at least partially baseline (3 shards?) would go a long way to improving Demonology’s “quality of life” gameplay dimension. Even if it meant a proportionate damage reduction of Tyrant.

Regarding Destruction

There is a general complaint of clunkiness in AOE for Destruction, particularly due to a lack of control. A common ask is allowing Fire And Brimstone Talent to go back to being a controllable toggle, if not a baseline toggle, where F&B Immolate would AOE apply immolate, of course taking into account tuning. Another suggestion has been to grant Cataclysm as a baseline Soul Shard spender instead. In both cases Rain of Fire would remain but perhaps would have to be tuned accordingly. Some have also suggested returning Hellfire not just for Demonology but maybe even baseline for all specs, or at least Demo and Destro, both for the sake of flavor and for the diversification/extended support of Warlock AOE.

The speed of the rotation and the interaction between spells is also a point of concern, as gestured to in the Azerite feedback. A suggestion is to bring back Backdraft affecting 3 Incinerates or 1 Chaos Bolt once more, also to give us more control and flexibility in our rotation. Another ask is to perhaps have an option to have “mini infernals” spawn again, perhaps as a smaller proc when Infernal is on CD. Regarding Infernal CD, maintaining a 3 minute CD remains excessive given that it signifies that the balance between During-Infernal damage and Outside-of-Infernal damage is significantly large. Reducing the CD and/or buffing the primary toolkit (and perhaps reducing Infernal damage) seems necessary, similarly to the needs of Affliction.

Internal Combustion Talent being triggered by a spell with travel time has negative consequences. Can the Chaos Bolt Consume the target’s Immolate when the spell is cast rather than when it lands?

Eradication and Internal Combustion aren’t good enough to be picked over the other two talents that drastically affect quality of life and rotation feel.

There is currently a predominant tendency to feel obligated to spec into Grimoire of Supremacy Talent. It is apparent to many that Destruction is balanced around this tendency, due to it being so powerful. Could the damage produced by this Talent instead be returned to our spells, to both allow for greater freedom of Talent Choice and to bring power back into the spec itself? As it stands, as another warlock expressed it, “the skill floor is low but the ceiling is all RNG”. Keeping the damage within that Infernal window means we’ll do bad damage outside of that window by design necessity. Likewise reduce the Infernal AOE so Destro can have stronger AOE once more.

Destruction is the least mobile spec of Warlocks; perhaps return Shadowburn for execute and as a mobile part of our toolkit as well as return Fel Flame, both in line with unpruning as well as the former allowing for a space in our Talents to address the needs aforementioned.

Additionally, rather than Havoc copying any spell within a certain timeframe (thus forcing the spec to be played a certain way in lining certain cooldowns up along with being forced into certain talents), could it instead just copy a certain number of spells as it was before?

Regarding the F Word (Fun)

This is where The Great Unpruning could do some cool fun not-gameplay affecting work.

Demonbolt Green Fire animation? Will it ever come?

Please also return Glyph of Wrathguard’s giving the Wrathguard two 2-handed weapons. I believe the reason it was removed long ago was the Wrathguard was literally attacking twice rather than once.

Please give warlocks the ability to speak Demonic once more.

In general for pets, given the wide variety of models for demons and void-based creatures now in the game, why can’t warlocks be given a “grimoire” system that operates like Hunter stables, with Enslave Demon reworked to operate like a Tame, and we can collect Demons for our grimoires and have to slot specific demons within the given summoning slots?

Allow us to Enslave either Faceless in place of Voidwalker, or Pit Lords in place of Infernals, or other Felguard and Shivarra and etc models for those respective Demon Categories. Enslave Demon only sees relevance in niche or gimmicky moments every expansion, and even in Legion the spell was only really useful as a CC mechanic in some pulls (and even then, rarely; most notably its used in Xhul’horac was nerfed actually). This would be an amazing addition to the game, of equal if not superior level to the Green Fire Questline in MoP.

Consider: a copy of the Hunter Tame/Stable system, where either within the Dreadscar Rift (Class Order Hall, would breathe life into past content) and/or next to the Warlock Trainer in every major city, there would be a “Grimoire” that functions like the Warlock stables.

Enslave Demon becomes like Tame Beast. Enslave Demon simply is never used. Literally never used. Only time it has been used was as a gimmick within the Class Order Hall (where we didn’t actually enslave the mob, we just cast the ability and was auto-controlled into releasing us) and the Warlock Green Fire Questline (the Pitlord, which nowadays is irrelevant given gear level and the “of the Black Harvest” title no longer exists).

Each current demon becomes a “slot”:

  • the Ranged DPS slot (Imp)
  • Tank and AOE slot (Voidwalker)
  • Melee DPS with CC slot (Succubus)
  • Melee DPS with Interrupt slot (Felhunter)
  • Demonology Melee Cleave DPS with Tank and CC functions (Felguard)

Every time you enslave a demon it gets assigned a name you cannot change without dismissing that demon or enslaving the same mob again, following the same way all our default demons have assigned named and we have to pay to replace them. The only demons we could not “release” would be our default demons, maybe, I don’t know.

Within the game there are already “families” of demons, and given the Voidwalker is a Void being ie aberrations families too.

In the case of Demonology, the way the spec could be “unique” with regards to this hypothetical system is while Affliction and Destruction can enslave Common demons and aberrations, Demonology as a spec can enslave Elite/Named Elite demons and aberrations. Perhaps with a singular Destruction exception of their being able to Enslave/Tame Elite Demons for the Infernal CD, and Affliction being able to Enslave/Tame Elite Demons (or Aberrations?) for their Darkglare CD. But Demonology could enslave Elites for whatever demon slot.

Note, this is my (OP’s) allocation of slots and isn’t a consensus by any means. Sources are Wowpedia’s Demon page and Aberration page.

Demons Common or Unnamed Elite Named Elite Proposed Slot
Annihilan (or pit lords) No Yes Infernal
Antaen No Yes Infernal
Bilescourge Yes Yes Felhunter
Aranasi Yes Yes Succubus
Darkhound Yes Yes Felhunter
Doomguard Yes Yes Darkglare, Tyrant
Doomlord No Yes Infernal
Felbat Yes Yes Felhunter
Fel beast Yes Yes Felhunter
Felhound Yes No Felhunter
Felstalker Yes Yes Felhunter
Fiend (Terrorguard, Fear Fiend, Terrorfiend) No Yes Darkglare, Tyrant, Infernal
Imp and Fel Imp Yes Yes Imp
Imp mother No Yes Imp
Infernal No Yes Infernal
Abyssal Yes Yes Infernal
Inquisitor Yes Yes Darkglare, Imp
Jailer Yes Yes Voidwalker
Man’ari eredar Yes Yes Darkglare, Tyrant
Wrathguard Yes Yes Felguard
Gan’arg Yes Yes Imp, Felhunter
Mo’arg brute Yes Yes Infernal
Felguard Yes Yes Felguard
Fel lord Yes Yes Felguard
Nathrezim Yes Yes Darkglare, Tyrant
Felsteed Yes Yes Felhunter
Dreadsteed No No N/A
Observer Yes Yes Felhunter
Darkglare Yes Yes Darkglare
Overfiend Yes Yes Darkglare, Tyrant, infernal
Satyr Yes Yes Succubus
Succubus Yes Yes Succubus
Shivarra Yes Yes Succubus
Ur’zul Yes Yes Felhunter
Vilefiend Yes Yes Felhunter
Void terror Yes Yes Felhunter
Wyrmtongue Yes Yes Imp
Aberrations Common or Unnamed Elite Named Elite Proposed Slot
Void God/Void Lord Yes Yes Voidwalker
N’raqi/Faceless Yes Yes Voidwalker
Merciless One Yes Yes Voidwalker
Sha Yes Yes Voidwalker
Void Revenant Yes Yes Voidwalker
Void Caller Yes Yes Voidwalker
Voidwalker Yes Yes Voidwalker
Voidwraith Yes Yes Voidwalker
Wicker Constructs Yes Yes Voidwalker
Beastman Yes Yes Voidwalker
Beholder Yes Yes Felhunter
Fleshbeasts Yes Yes Felhunter
Haunt Yes Yes Felhunter
Psyfiend Yes Yes Voidwalker

Alternatively perhaps allow us greater variety for pets via glyphs, perhaps either via a glyph that randomizes the skin of your demon via “families”, or glyphs to replace a given demon with another skin as it currently is, but maybe include more diversity of aberrations (eg replace Voidwalker with other Void creatures or maybe Faceless).

Felplagued's MMOC Compilation Thread:

`https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2544306-YOUR-Warlock-changes-coming-Shadowlands/

EU Warlock Forum Compilation Document, compiled by Thunrahion

`https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pxv5bLtj3Csu8E3gpxryjolzA6zFm_-b1xLWABr54aA/edit

Preach Alpha Quick Look (April 11 pass)

Kalamazi Alpha Feedback Video (April 13 pass)

Kalamazi Alpha Torghast Feedback Video (last update April 20)

Bellular Warlock Video Round 2 (with much appreciated apology for his round 1 :D was nice) (May 7 pass)

FinalBossTV's Alpha Feedback Videos (May 14, 15, 16, 17 pass)

Belullar's Ranged DPS Roundup, Warlock Section (May 22)

Azerite Trait Opinions Survey

`https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe0cRbNEDNHvuSYMqTDuro_UcFCDyqCoVWyXTJME1d8qEYcGA/viewform

39 Likes

they dont actually know what dark pact does.

19 Likes

Recall in WOD when we had a Dark Pact line in your Talent page ?

3 Likes

I read it more as that they’re changing it from based on health alone to health x a multiplier based on spellpower

Edit: Putting feeback posts in other threads here to help the length of the first post

Feedback posts:

1 Like

I really don’t see Destruction or Demonology holding their ground in Shadowlands. Majority of classes are getting so many baseline abilities and updates, it just doesn’t look even.

I know it’s early development, but I hope more changes. I’m not thrilled.

26 Likes

correct that was my first guess, but it says it does more damage. it doesnt do damage. its not an offensive ability. it is worded awfully

3 Likes

what would you like to see returned specifically?

I’m hoping for some Glyphs returned, and for Hellfire to come back

2 Likes

For Destro, what we do not have is made up for with DPS.

Demo NEEDS an instant cast targeted interrupt, like other pure dps classes have, a la rogue kick. That would make many of us very happy. Not shadowfury, not axe toss stun. Without that, the spec will suffer all expansion again from that weakness, regardless of what good or bad they do to it numbers wise.

15 Likes

added

10char

I haven’t put that much thought into it, but I just can’t see the ramp up playstyle being viable in shadowlands. It kinda looks like classes and combat will be fast paced, like in previous xpacs.

As for Demo, they need more on-demand abilities. Outside of Tyrant and using Demonic Strength the spec is complete garbage in any scenario you put them in.

For Destruction, I may be too pessimistic. They will probably be fine with minimal changes, such as bringing curses and utility back.

4 Likes

Welp…I’m whelmed. Not overwhelmed or underwhelmed…just whelmed so far.

11 Likes

Hopeful for Affy!! This looks good so far!!
I’m kinda torn about Destro, in one way the minimal at first changes show the spec is actually decently designed? And as one AP said, we make up for “cool tricks” in raw DPS, but it’s like, we have numerous talent rows that are one sided, spells/talents (Shadowburn and Soulfire) that are not used at all, and just a very boring playstyle, I hope they at least give Shadowburn and Soulfire a actual chance to compete in Shadowlands.

2 Likes

I’d like to see more damage and usefulness outside of “Big Bolts”. Maybe bringing back a great execute in Shadowburn would be the start of that.

7 Likes

Every other class got its execute back, I thought warlocks would get shadowburn back too =/

12 Likes

Wanna know why this is? Because Backdraft is just so essential to the functioning of the spec, and it used to be baseline. But no, like every other talent we HAVE to pick which was taken away from us. It’s aggravating on so many levels.

Don’t even get me started on design choices like making Shadowfury have a 1.5s cast time alongside nerfing its CD from 30s to 1minute… its a dispellable stun. Laughable.

I’d like some actual tools baseline… not just some flavorful curses, which are neat, yes, but as it goes: Things like Demonic Circle for example.

And change our mechanic back to Burning Embers, and give us a smaller heal through ember tap back again, too. But not as ridiculous as it was in MoP or WoD.

Then they absolutely have to give Backlash back to make Incinerate instant cast every 8s when we’re hit by melee, on top of increasing our damage of Conflagrate, Incinerate and Shadowburn, and nerfing our reliance on the 3min Infernal CD window and Chaos Bolt.

Chaos Bolt hits for far too weak outside of these CDs, and when we lose our haste generating borrowed powers, the spec will truly feel awful again.

Additionally, give us Howl of Terror or Blood Horror baseline back, to regain control over those pesky melees. In turn, they can make us more squishy again.

Remove the stupid CD nerf on Health Stone for warlocks only. It’s a slap in the face that one of our major defensives can only be used ONCE per in-combat phase. It works like potions ever since BfA, and in PvP, this is a horrible design decision when a class like Rogue has Crimson Vial, a 30% HoT on a 30s CD…

To round it up, give us the WotLK/Cata version of Shadowflame back. A cone Dragons Breath-like abiility on a 15s CD that does quick Shadowflame damage and slows the target for 70% for 5s.

Oh and yes, Fel flame would be neat as well. Or give a talent that makes Immolate instant cast, this was actually a very fun playstyle in mid Legion when they gave us that possibility for a short amount of time…

There’s just SO MUCH they have to do… I mainly speak from the PvP PoV, but rest assured that all our design flaws also trickle down to PvE aswell.

Cataclysm’s talent should not give us cataclysm, Cata needs to be BASELINE, and the talent should make it instant cast and its CD reduced by 15s. FnB can stay like that, or they could make it a toggle again like in MoP, which was just so flavorful and unique in its playstyle…

Same with CDF (Channel Demonfire), this should also be baseline tbh. But I can’t ask for everything, just something. Please.

Finally, my biggest gripe especially for M+ design is Rain of Fire. Why not change it so it is a debuff applied to a targetted mob, which it follows around, to circumvent the old problem of our entire AoE damage being negated because most mobs have to be constantly kited around by the tanks…

My list would be even longer if I had a clearer thought process right now, but it is what it is. I’m lucky if my ADHD brain manages some coherent thought so I’ll leave this one for now.

Context about me for anyone that cares: I play on EU, here’s my profile: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/eu/blackmoore/archimitros

I only play destruction. Since 2008. I have almost 730 days /played on this toon, and I do a LOT of content, both PvE and PvP, but mainly more PvP focussed. So you can be assured that I know at least what I’m talking about.

Our current playstyle is just frustrating and very dumbed down. It’s frustrating to play, and frustrating for others to play against. It absolutely needs to change.

Here’s hoping for enough like-minded people to really push the feedback, regardless. True warlock veterans know all too well that our feedback will probably not be heard, but we absolutely must not give up.

Okay, I have to add a second finally just to highlight a bit more my gripes especially with the gameplay, and to highlight what we truly lost. Have a look at this recording of a BG I did back in MoP, and please excuse my very cringey character name. I was 16 at the time…

Coincidentally, we have the exact same HP pools now as back then. Have a close look at the damage numbers and just try to reflect on the insanity compared to how our spec is structured nowadays… especially the damage of our filler spells.

They want to give players back agency? Start with classes that have none by their design. Destro is the best example of this. If you really think about it, we have no real agency anymore. We are an immobile turret that has to rely on their team mates to set things up, and we are boned if enemies know our weaknesses.

We are only passive. Passive tankiness through Soul Leech… but NOTHING about our kit is active. That’s why I can’t stop bringing the subject of instant cast Shadowfury up, time and time again. I repeated it 7 times already here on the forums and reddit. In PvP, everything is fast paced and reactional. If your one and only stun isn’t even instant cast, what does that feel like, exactly? Mortal Coil is the only thing that is instant cast, and it doesn’t even come without drawbacks.

Players that lost arena matches due to coiling their kill target just perfectly around the pillar know exactly what I’m talking about here…

Again, please DONT confuse this with our current raw strength. I won’t deny that destro is quite strong in PvP right now, but people really don’t see the bigger picture here. We aren’t strong if we don’t have the supporting team mates, as we can almost never rely on ourselves only. Everything we do that is dangerous is hard-cast. Mortal Coil is the only thing that gives us this, but enemies that know how to play around it absolutely can and will.

If you’re unsure of what I mean, again, I really urge you to watch my clips and try to understand that saying we’re OP now just pales in comparison how truly OP we actually were, once.

26 Likes

Dest IS in a pretty good place atm. Especially compared to the other 2 specs. Good in raids, good in mythics, great in pvp.

Personally I’m begging blizzard for at least a proper interrupt for demonology (I mean… c’mon) and wincing when I saw unstable affliction mentioned in relation to affliction which I think isn’t in a great place atm. Way too many minor dots instead of a few big ones. AoE is a shadow of what it once was in Legion. Okay in raids - almost unplayable in high keys and rated pvp.

If I had a side-wish, I’d really like demonology in particular to not be so tied to a single pet. Imagine them creating a hunter spec and saying ‘yeah… it has to be played with a boar…’ -.-

3 Likes

Changes I had hoped for in SL

  • Bring back permanent Infernal.
  • Being on fire
  • Have F&B also work for Immolate.
  • Make Focused Chaos a normal talent choice.
  • Remove the 3 min burst from all specs and make them a talent choice.
  • Ember Tap as the Destro heal.
  • Life Tap so we can get our survivability back.

With none of these happening I don’t see myself playing lock for yet another expansion. :pleading_face:

8 Likes

About focussed chaos, no. Just remove that st*** talent, tune CB right this time and not f*** it up again and be done with it.

People don’t even realize how utterly disgusting it feels to nerf yourself by wasting a PvP talent slot to get your baseline CB damage back, and in turn having to ALSO sacrifice it’s ability to be split by Havoc so much it’s ridiculous.

And yes, I am a bit over-exagerating here. I’m aware of the fact that Havoc and CB was always an issue to balance, but then again, it truly isn’t. Remember, Havoc used to split 100% of our damage to the second target. It’s at 65% now. Just use that idea to tune it down a bit, and you’re good.

But it is what it is… warlock ever since Legion. Pruned to death, and if you just want even a little bit back, you have to pick the talents for it. Zero choice.

14 Likes

Here are some things to consider; regarding Demonology.

If Demo really is the master of demon summoning, why are we pigeon-holed into a single pet?

Introduction

  • Pet utility should never have been a thing. I think there should be a talent row that has the following; Imp Dispel, Silence, and an Absorb shield (Dark Pact perhaps, filling in the VoidWalker special) - No need for seduce since it is practically the same as Fear (DR-wise, at least)

  • Replace the Mortal Coil, Darkfury, Demonic Circle row with these spells and make Mortal Coil baseline,

  • Replace the pet utility with strong-damage/defensive cooldowns, Succubus has a melee dps increase, Fel Hunter does more damage based on the target’s mana remaining, imp has it’s own chaos bolt (something similar to it), Voidwalker has a massive damage reduction or an absorb shield.

On-demand damage

  • Make Vilefiend baseline, and instant cast.

  • Dreadstalkers should be a shorter cast, maybe 1 second at most.

  • Summoning Imps shouldn’t come from Hand of Gul’dan, instead make it a cooldown and have it instant (Like Summoning 5 Imps, Cooldown is around 15 seconds)

Filler

  • Have DemonBolt and Shadowbolt do 2% more damage per demon that’s active (replace that talent in the last row with something much more interesting - Like Empowering your pet for a short duration, enhancing it’s abilities)

I kinda ran out of ideas after this, maybe i’ll post more later.

15 Likes