Monk and what we really need

Hello all,

I tried new set and it is horrable. Now I wanna do some collection of monks state of things regarding gameplay and what is really needed to change. DEVs and NEVs please hear to us, the community and do some changes. Monk has so many builds that are almost fun but there are some horrable restrictions on the gear and gemeplay. We need some slight adjustments and it will be best class ever (ok, for me it is since I only play monk).

Introduction

I will go through builds as they are and what slight changes are needed. We all know that gen build probably deals most dmg (where LoD WoL might gotten that title now but it seems to be close) but all others have less potential and ALL monk builds (SOLO!) are bad in surviving techniques and most builds rely on unity ring which makes them not playable in a group. That is the worst thing ever since I like playing in groups (and as a monk, not as a healer, I want to play MY fav build!). So most important in short: Get rid of unity on any solo build. Remove some silly restrictions on items. Give us more dmg on builds that are worse than others.

Wave of light builds (WoL):

It has three (-4) different variants:

  • LoD WoL
  • Innas WoL
  • Swk WoL (where you can choose if you use CoE / Unity or focus and restraint)

DPS
Right now those builds are strongest, where dps wise LoD > Inna > Swk (even with the new buff this should be true). I personally did a 120 with innas and 122 with LoD, so the difference is round 2-3 levels since my inna gear is pretty good and my LoD is not. Swk even with crimson is way behind. The F & R variant is stronger but has no permanent epi which is pretty crap when you get a lot of knockback enemys.

The gameplay actually is fun (ok, most of the people will say no since we have to play the build since three years now and even with the changes of current ptr patch this will not change), but actually it is fun if you like it (which is the case for me since I played the build even when gen build was superior). From gemeplay there is missing a thing: Remove the restriction on kyo blade with <= 3 enemys hit! Why? You are forced to play fire rune since all the other runes you need to place the bell on enemys heads and since you want to collect enemys there are almost any time more than three! There is one other thing really missing: Damage reduction! Monk is squishiest class ever (although it has some skills but solo noone ever uses them!). We can get a change here if we do a change on epi desert shroud rune: Lift the damage reduction to 80%. Why? Innas has a good amount of defense by pushing your life pool. But it needs the cs shoulders + cs or serenty. Without you die! LoD Version has also shoulders + 52% dmg reduction but you know why any solo monk plays LoD instead of LoN (which should be the better choice)? Its because of unity. What happens when you play in groups? You can not play your solo build. Simple. For F&R variant of swk: Lift the dmg reduction of spirit guards to 80%. This will never effect any other build using ltk or wol or tr but it also helps uliana and the gen monk.

The gen monk:

description / thoughts
I really hate the build since you are forced to do so many things: 4 mandatory passiva (alacrity, soul, sti and harmony - ok, the latter is changable but honestly: nothing else gives you that amont of def). You have to use fire rune on your DS, you have to use 2 gens for the damage, a mantra and cs and BoH with the spirit rune. nothing can be changed. And another important thing: You are absolutely not good against any CC effect of enemys, you are forced to skip those enemys. This yields to a non playable build if you have less than 6k paragon. What is needed: An item that gives you immunity to all CC effects (e.g. a ring that lets you be in permanent epi) and more dmg reduction (spirit guards as stated above). Gameplay wise there is one thing to add: Let the dragon give permanent doubled aps! That is crucial since only if the procc is on you get enough spirit back, life back and dmg. You are way behind other classes dmg (except barb until 2.6.6) so there is nothing wrong with a little buff that would be.

LtK builds

Actually also real fun to play but needds improvements as follows: Dmg is just not enough. One thing is that dragon has a chance of doubled aps: change to permanent. Another thing is the restriction to the first 7 kicked enemys of scarbringer. The build should be a good similar to gen monk playable build but with more aoe and less boss killing power. It indeed has less power. Especially in groups you do not deal enough dmg and also: You simply die since you have no damage reduction. desert shroud rune change as suggested above is key here. Also here LoN or LoD builds are way above swk build since you can use CS. That skill is needed.

uliana

I do not play that build that often but many people asked for more defense (again spirit guards) and more damage (feel free to give more dmg to palm). Gameplay actually is one of the most funniest in game. I played the build in groups on some 120ish grifts and I managed to deal dmg to trash which was really funny - but without the broken mystic rhythm mechanic that would not be possible. Which means: It deals the MR % dmg less than needed + its not as strong as WoL builds. Give us more.

Tempest rush builds

They have a side note simply because they do not do dmg, but I play those for sage t16 runs. Why? Because it is no WoL and it is a nice to play build. There are some really stupid restrictions such as CC on enemys for cesars. Why? Also there needs a buff the defense (epi - DS rune change again!) and offense. The latter one brings me to a new suggestion: Add the sweeping wind dmg to 6p swk set! The set needs wind + its stacks to deal dmg. The new VW weapon property gives more dmg to the set but compared to LoN / LoD (and for WoL and LtK also innas) it is worse dmg wise and also defensive it is just bad. Since TR also has problems with dmg the additional dmg on wind would do a nice not OP buff to monks dmg and I think it might come close to LoN / LoD and Inna but most probably not above especially since wind only affects enemys nearby you. That would mean that LtK build (swk variant) would get a higher buff than wol build whis is fine. Since dmg of swk wol is round halve of lod that should almost close the gap.

Which yields to the new set

IT IS HORRABLE! no dmg reduction, speed that is never needed on a set like this (hey, we probably are the fastest t 16 class, maybe dh can be faster), we do not need more speed. Also the set only pushed wind by a freaking bad gameplay style. You shall take TR with it but dmg and spirit cost items (Eye of storm, hexing pants and mantle of channeling) are three items where the set is. You can only wear one and have one in cube. REMOVE the set. It is not needed. Add the wind dmg to swk set and DONE!.

edit to the new set

ok, now i did some more runs with it. actually it is simlly weak but combined with generators playable (on 100 like innas wol on 118 without being that tough, i died with the set 3 times the try and with innas i die once in ten runs or so - and innas is weaker than lod and this is weaker than all other classes). here are some slight suggestions:
first give dmg reduction - simple
give us eg a shield getting stronger over time that we could use squirts.
make dmg stackable by the number of enemys within the radius
do x2 or x3 the radius without restriction.
give new vw kind of 15 stacks (swk still won’t be stronger than lod for wol then but its up to innas)
if you really want to stick to tr give it all runes and add tr dmg to this set and remove it from wol.

somewhere i also suggested another new set around a weapon type: the daibo. bonusses:
2p when wearing a daibo all inc dmg is reduced by 80%
4p any stat of your primary weapon is doubled
6p all your dmg delt by spenders is lifted by 20000% (or so)

What I want for the monk

A 2 hand set where you get a huge buff if you use daibo (and then TR or WoL builds or even a generator build with a daibo). Give it to us! I’ve done a suggestion in another thread with the following buffs: read here: New monk set Ideas

Most important

Let us get rid of unity as ring. There is absolutely nothing good with it since you are not able to play your fav solo build in a group. Get us defense!

For the comm

Feel free to add some thoughts. We really need changes to monk. I have the feeling that no dev ever played monk which is my favourite class (and the only one I play really). And please: a monk is not a healer, a healer is kind of a pet on a team game. This thread is all about monks and solo play and group play with your fav build.

And for the devs

If you wanna see a monk in action have a look on my vid collection: https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/de/d3/t/dem-nuklearfart-seine-vid-sammlung/52 I did a 110 vs 114 vs 118 comparison with innas WoL playstyle. This looks much more fluent than the vid of an 80 grift try posted here: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/patterns-of-justice-sw-tr-new-set-feed-back/4094/67?u=atomfurz-2393
If you need people helping you with making monk a fun class with a good balance: I’m here.

further discussion

16 Likes

I agree with almost everything you said. They will probably not do it this patch but the Uliana build could use some options in choice of runes. There is zero flexibilty. One easy fix is to have Fist of Az’Turasq affect all EP damage, not just the detonation and increase the DoT on the non-cold runes so that all runes of EP are somewhat closer in damage output and EP detonations should be coded to include all remaining DoT damage on the target. Since the Uliana 6 piece detonates EP instantly, there is no resson to run any rune except Impending Doom.

Agreed that the new set Patterns of Justice is horrible. The build is super squishy with no built in damage reduction and the TR interaction seems non-impactful and barely noticeable. I was hoping that it would approach Chicken Doc speed with Tailwind and the 4 piece but it just sermed slow. The radius of SW didn’t seem to be affected much if at all by channeling TR and it takes a fair amount of focus to have the build be able to maintain TR with very little payoff.

2 Likes

I really like your idea of using a daibo, and forcing us to actually wear it.

i like your uliana idea. we need to make some wind such that devs get it on their list of things to change, so no problem with asking for more changes. barbs also needed some patches to those new 2.6.7 changes and (even when i have no idea of barb) fell that it is not enough for them.

my personal most important step would be getting rid of unity as ring.

Completely agree with you Atomfurz, you obviously know what you’re ralking about. U6 is also my least played set due its silly snapshotting requirements, so I can’t comment on that build.

This new set is possibly the worst set in the game as of right now.

I was actually a little excited when I first saw it, thinking I could finally play the build (or at least similar) that first made me love Monks again.

Unfortunately, it is so underwhelming that I am struggling to find motivation to test it further. I bet I could make a stronger LoD SW build.

  1. Not enough defence
  2. Hard to maintain spirit for TR, even with holy rune
  3. Not enough damage!
  4. Boring gameplay

Basically has nothing going for it beyond T10-T13. It needs more supporting items too.

Unless we are all doing something horribly wrong?

1 Like

This here is what we need first. Unity combo is a clunky mechanic they chose to leave in game. I still think it’s a legal exploit.

Either way, it really sucks when you lose half your mitigation as soon as you enter a multiplayer game. With no way around it beyond gimping your damage extremely.

2 Likes

Atomfurz, I wanna give you some feedback in regards to your formatting of the text.

I think it is good to give feedback about the Monk, but although you use a lot of paragraphs, your text is a bit difficult to read since it still kinda looks like a wall of text and one does not see clearly when you shift from one issue to another.

My suggestion would be to take advantage of the new forums features to bring more stricture into your text to make it better readable, for example:

============================================

your introduction text

Wave of Light Builds

your text that explains the issues WoL builds have…

Gen Monk

your text revolving around Gen Monks…

Lashing Tail Kick Builds

your text about LTK…

Ullana Builds

your text explaining issues revolving around Uliana builds…

Tempest Rush Builds

the text you have written on Gen Monks…

The New Justice Set

your text revolving around problems with the new Patterns of Justice set…

“The Rest”

rest of your text and credentials

============================================

That would help to make your text more readable, which in general is a good thing.

You then also can use a bit more paragraphs to make it even better.

Here is more on how to use the new forum features:

3 Likes

thanks a lot, if i get the time i’ll fix it. i personally strugle a bit with formatting, i’m used to latex :slight_smile: there it is easy.

to all supporters of the written text: share and shout :wink:

2 Likes

The original vanilla version of Inna required a “combat staff” to be equipped which meant a daibo. It was only a 4 piece set back then.

I did a little formatting as suggested by clueso. Now share and shout and make some noise for really needed features. Do some repost in detail and what you suggest or simply say yes :smiley:

1 Like

I aggre with almost everything written in this post. Played Monk since day 1 and if anything, I would love some sort of Diabo set as you mentioned in your post and some suggestions around diabos. Perhaps combine it with sweeping wind which is also something many players want who plays monk. Please Diablo team try and play around with monks and then you will understand that there isnt much love for them as there is for the other classes. Give monks some love! Dont just buff / change around WoL it is becoming repetative for the last couple seasons. Good post overall.

1 Like

At least monks have zmonk that wont be going anywhere in the meta setup, now relating to dps, you can pretty much kiss that goodbye, monks will never be viable dps in any group, meta or otherwise.

the suggestions here are for solo play and non meta group play. as written above, beibg the tk on grift 120 is not hard but with inna. since lod is at least 2 grifts stronger solo i’d like to take that build but there is no way to do so since you need that unity ring. that is rediculus. and btw: the healer os not even a monk playstyle, its absolutely different from any real monk play

With 1 ring giving us CDR for Epiphany + DPS / Toughness, we would solve all the problems we have.
Finally we would be free from unity.
We would have CC immunity in R6
We would have perma epiphany
We would have a good increase in DPS.

But I know, it would be a lot of stats for just one ring …

As for LTK, he needs one more support item. Relying on FD proc for more DPS would be somewhat frustrating due to your RNG.
Monk still has some weapons that have no legendary power that could be reworked.

2 Likes

Why can’t we get a whole new class level of set? If they said "Look we can give you the Assassin Martial Arts style from D2, or you can have a duplicate of the WW barb, which would you prefer? “I want to play the WW barb!” Well go roll a barb! I want at least a part of a whole new class!!!

Tempest Rush stacks are like Chanto stacks, and it has Angry Chicken speed. Charge in with Tempest Rush, building up stacks and tension, then unleash generators on the elite in a Combination Strike (current passive skill) where each generator dumps the TR stacks into Sweeping wind, and 4 lots of those stacks in total to melt the elite.

As for DR, like Tal’s elemental stacks, but more reliable. Each generator increases defense for 15 seconds. One Gen hit will extend the 4 stacks for another 15 seconds.

A whole new game style. EASY to do. And we all get the D2 Martial Arts Assassin! Which was obviously intended at some stage due to the current passive, Combination Strike.

Honestly, Start Asking for the NEW CLASS Gameplay, in a new set for existing characters.

Witch Doctor Transformation set, transform into a Garg or a Zombie Dog. (Wear Bear or Wear Wolf Druid),
Demon Hunter Trap set (Trap Assassin).

There’s a lot of positive feed backs. I don’t play that much solo these days, giving some thoughts from past experiences/limited time these days. It’s focused more on improving gameplay, not necessarily increase the power level. I don’t think we have ANY 140+ capable builds atm like the trend is heading. Primarily due to our lack of defensive options. Need to solve this before solving damage problems for 14x. I am melee biased, so i d prefer 14x is to be done with Gen/LTK based play styles personally.

# WoL - 28.125 +1 =29.125 x

Strongest all round performer atm. Not much to be said except EXTRA DR WILL BE NICE. What is this ring called Unity doing here?? This will be extremely nice:

# LTK – 36+1 = 37x
Scarbringer needs limited targets unlocked. LTK cone radius is 10-15 yards depending on runes, with physical collision introduced and cyclone is not a pixel pull skill, # of targets limited fits no purpose other than to limit AD efficiency. Its low performance primarily due to lack of SB proc AD spike.

#Gen – 20+1=21x (base on 250 spirit. Will be higher dual different passive selections /gears / FD proc)

R6 Gen is the best push build for monk. DR/CC problems so cliché, especially DR. This build needs 6k+ paragon to start to enjoy some of its experience. @ 6k+ you can start to drop mantra for utility skills to counter lack of anti CC. To be fair, all solo that does not provides perma transformation will have CC problems. It’s not as big a problem as DR. Imagine 60% DR added on set bonuses, you can either drop unity or drop spirit guard for Krelm’s Bracer.

# PoJ (SW) – 3+1 = 4 x

IT IS HORRABLE! The Sets needs +10-15 tiers damage modifiers. 4.8-10.5x Damage buffs in addition to DR added on set bonuses. Gameplay wise, it feels pretty good. Whether TR or Gen style. The internal duration of TR increasing SW radius is far too short. Datamining states the refreshing interval is 0.2s and duration is 2 secs, increase the duration to 4 or 5 secs should be better. TR version encourages bigger AOE while the Gen version is more small group / single target focused. I still believe this set should be made a TR exclusive set, remove TR to here. And adds SW to SWK as SW already locked to that set. However, TR is a secondary skill and SWK buffs ALL secondary skill. SW is Technique Skill. I don’t see Blizzard will take this suggestion. Nevertheless, PoJ needs more power.

# Tempest rush builds - 60+1 = 61x (excluding hexing as Dibbs has diminishing)

Personally, I don’t feel it belongs to SWK apart from it been categorized as secondary skills. While att spd does increase the damage, it does not increase the tick rate. 2H channeling offers better resource cycles, the raw damage is higher even after trading off hand 130 CHD. The trade off is 3 extra primary stats. So, the option for dual wield channeling is optional. On SWK, it pretty much locks it at dual wield due to VW. If TR is moved onto PoJ, you can equip Balance and slot is open for weapon cube, options such as messerschmidt’s reaver /furnace or whatever you like. More flexibility in my opinion. But, at the current SWK TR state, the helmet is open slot. Spirit stone such as Erlangshen/Bezoar can be reworked to give TR extra damage. I don’t think TR has ANY resource issues as long as you balance CDR/RCR. Others suggested buffing General Quang to include reduced TR cost is solid, however it’s not applicable if TR remains SWK. LoD is definitely the best form of TR. I don’t think Ceasar CC is an issue when it properly managed.

Buffing monk for 14x wont be soon. If i have time, i ll do a Intra class comparison on 14x builds when next patch is live. Looks like we are heading the lowest performer on solo GR atm. I dont think WoL/Gen can competes with DH’s Nat RF. Eventhough BR is nerfed, its still 14x fishable build. The nerf was more targeting 150 solo clrs. Lowest performer is a GOOD thing, meaning we have grounds for BUFFS :grin:

1 Like