Tanks and what do we do?

all you need is:

  1. buff non-barrier tanks, maybe even specifically with bonus barrier damage, or just with better tanking personally or for team. this creates nonbarrier options so barriers can be both strong and still balanced.
  2. remove all dps barriers so that doubleshield can’t become triple or quad shield during ults. in the case of echo an easy solution is to cap her dup health at base health, so her dupe rein is not full 500hp rein.

oh and 3. maybe reduce the damage falloff range of barrier tanks and give them compensation elsewhere

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I have like 20 ideas, so dunno what you mean :stuck_out_tongue:

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That idea where you basically make shield have a big vulnerability that the off tanks will cover, so that, if we re-buff shields, double shield won’t be meta because it’ll collapse under any brawl/dive comp.

Ah, yeah.

I probably should make a big megathread on all the ideas.

But it basically boils down to:

  1. Orisa maintank, Sigma offtank
  2. Orisa maintank, Sigma maintank, both weaker at close range
  3. If you have 2 BarrierTanks, make Barriers weaker somehow
  4. 1x BarrierTank maximum per team

Rework the maps - the big problem is there are just an enormous amount of chokepoints that non mobile, squishy characters can’t get through without being burst down.

Need to make multi lane maps that lead to an objective so other non barrier tanks can be viable.

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Poll who likes what, keep the top 2, delete or rework the rest as dps and put in queues for whatever the two tanks are individually.

They cannot balance tanks. They’ve never tried before. So why bother now?

Current idea I’m tweaking up is a remix of some older ideas.

Basically, fix the Tank issue in a way that full casual players wouldn’t even know there was any changes.

  1. Discord bypasses barriers
  2. Buff barriers on Orisa/Sigma to Rein tier
  3. Having two of Rein/Orisa/Sigma causes the barrier regen/cooldown to be 40% slower.
  4. 20% headshot resistance for Tanks
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I thought all tanks need some armour.

All tanks need some cc resistance.

Zarya bubbles need to come off personal/ally and go on a universal 8 second callup like armour packs.

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Let me stop you right there. While I admire Grey’s dedication, I truly believe he has no idea how to make Tank characters in games.

He wants to turn tanks into duelists by completely removing what makes them tanks. At least, that’s how it was when he explained it to me. That’s such an obviously terrible idea that I really shouldn’t have to explain why.

But I will. In depth if I have to.

The short version is that, if tanks excel at dueling rather than tanking, then they aren’t tanks anymore.

Basically you have no idea about how to design Heavies in an FPS, and you’re leaning hard on the MMO and MOBA definition of a Tank.

Which clearly isn’t enjoyable enough to be anywhere near 1/3rd of players in 2-2-2.

Furthermore, the most direct way to improve queue times is by making Tanks more popular.

So I really gotta question the sense of priories from people who don’t care about making Tanks substantially more popular than they are now.

Lastly, I probably have more game design experience when it comes to balancing class based multiplayer shooters that have Heavy classes. Than probably anybody on the forum, who isn’t actively working for Blizzard.

Including coming up with a large series of highly specific changes to Mei and Roadhog. Which was either stellar prediction, or devs were actively cribbing design notes from me.

I've said it before, I'll say it again

I’m really not a fan of Grey’s idea on how to fix tanks. I much more like the idea of increasing mobility, damage, and/or character HP in exchange for lowering shield HP. Another idea to supplement this so that shields aren’t insanely easy to break would be to put some level of damage mitigation on shields when they hit a certain DPS threshold like you might see in some RPG games.

So, for example, under almost no circumstance can a shield break in less than two or three seconds. I want to say Diablo 3 uses such a system. I would greatly prefer a somewhat esoteric system like that to increasing shields.

We sorta have this, as certain flanking routes do exist on maps. But yes I’d agree! Multiple lanes would be a good idea (though one that would take a TON of work from every department, and could possibly be very hard to balance as well)

I’m all for making this game more MOBA-like, with a slower gameplay pace and a less homogenized cast :slight_smile:

double barrier is way overpowered and low skill, maintank role is needed or a rework to the tanks, so it’s not about shields. Or make 1-3-2 a thing so dps can actually have fun

Not my fault. Don’t call tanks tanks if you don’t want them to tank.

Would you like it if I designed the supports to be better at DPSing? Would that make sense? You even have to call them “Heavies” to justify your opinion of making them basically not tanks.

They aren’t “Heavies” they’re “Tanks”. That’s the role, and they should be good at doing what their name implies. Tanking.

Besides that, the term “tank” comes from MMOs when it comes to gaming. If you’re going to use MMO terminologies, I expect them to do what their name implies. Is that so wrong?

“Here’s my new DPS character, only they’re better at supporting their team than doing DPS. In fact, they’re terrible at DPS, but they’re still in that role”.

Does that make sense?

What do you mean here? You seem to be implying that, since no one enjoys tanks, they should be changed. If that’s your opinion, what in the world is your issue with my comment saying that “if tanks can’t tank, they aren’t tanks”?

Seems like the rational response would have been “Oh, I actually don’t think OW needs tanks” and not “Well, you don’t know how to design heavies in an FPS, even though the Tanks aren’t called ‘heavies’, they’re called tanks because they’re expected to tank damage”.

We can do that by not catering to the DPS crowd. You do know that there’s tons of gamers who play Tank by choice, right? Like, we love tanks? We love the ability to do high damage infrequently and absorb damage for our team?

The only reason there aren’t more gamers like that here is because OW seems to cater to the DPS crowd.

^ This is called a “Straw man”. You set this up so that you can have something easy to knock down. I didn’t say anything about tank popularity, I said I expect my tanks to tank, so your strawman doesn’t apply to me.

Oh really? What did you work on?

I have a lot of indie experience making a game like Overwatch, in fact, I’m working on one right now with a multitude of classes, so in my studies I see the right and wrong way to make tanks. I’m not saying I know everything, but I bet my right arm that I know more about game design than most of the people who come here just to play OW and talk about how OP a character is.

I’d watch that arrogance here, buddy. You’re hurting your argument. I’m pretty sure Blizzard isn’t pinching ideas from you specifically when it comes to Mei and Roadhog.

I’m gonna guess none of that experience involves class based shooter games.

Here’s what I got.

About 40 changes into a game called PlanetSide. Including how all the 10 massive zones across about 80 warp gates were all connected. Hotdropping out of ground vehicles. And I’m probably the reason the Terran MAX Suit eventually got better mobility.
I also wrote and hosted a mini installer that got 30,000 downloads, used in a guerilla marketing campaign, and was later copied by the devs.

I wrote a tournament server modification for a game called TRIBES, called Shifter_v1G with 40 servers running it, and about 20 teams, for about 2 years. With heavies including Dreadnaughts and Juggernauts.

And the amount of “coincidences” that the devs keep putting ideas almost exactly what I suggested into the game, including the really complicated ones, is stacking up higher and higher.

Including suggesting almost exactly the changes they went with, for Roadhog.

And for Mei (Which is almost a Tank)

Not to mention I’ve been talking about Tank balance concepts, constantly for the past 6 months.

And I could probably write a few more pages on highly specific “coincidences” where what got put into the game matched up to what I suggested.

Including the Mercy 50hps changes along with the specific reasoning for it, and the backend changes that allowed for rapid patching and the experimental mode.

Also lastly, you would have thought GOATs was a pretty clear indicator that “Too much MOBA, and not enough FPS” is unhealthy for Overwatch.

And that somehow you think additional Tank players to fix queue times, are just going to magically appear out of nowhere. Instead of primarily coming from the excess people currently playing DPS.
That somehow convincing DPS to play Tank instead, isn’t exactly what the devs need to do.

Wrong. I primarally work on class based shooters and things that are tangentially related to them (RPGs and JRPGs) where classes are the main focus of the game.

On that note, I see all the things you did or may have did and I have to ask you one thing: what games have you worked on.

Oh you suggested changes to planet side that MAY HAVE been used by the devs (which, in all honesty, could likely be those ‘coincidences’ you mentioned later.)
I see you hosted a mini installer for a game. Cool.

What class based games did you work on? Because I’m sitting here working on two (one RPG like Dark Souls, one class based FPS JUST LIKE overwatach), and your response so far is “I know more than you because of my suggestions”.

Oh, cool. You wrote a mod for a server. How much original scripting did you do, and how much were you able to borrow/edit from the initial server stuffs (if any). You can whip this stuff out like its supposed to be impressive, but to be fair, unless you explain what all “writing a tournament server modification” entails, I’m free to assume a number of things.

See, I do know a thing or two about modding. I know that can range from “basically developing a game” and “literally only changed values of established entities in game”. Being vague here isn’t going to help here.

Also, as for the coincidences

It is entirely arrogant to go around thinking “wow, the devs are using my ideas, I’d better act like it” with way too little to show for it. At this point, you’ve made a mod(which could be more impressive than it sounds here), and suggested changes to games that happened to be picked up by devs. And you’re responding to me, a man working on a game LITERALLY JUST LIKE overwatch from the ground up, I’m making models, scripts, levels, all solo, as if I have zero experience and have no idea what I’m talking about.

You are very much so talking to the wrong person like this, because unlike most, I really do know a thing or two when it comes to developing games. When I say “I don’t agree with you because…” I’m speaking from a place of experience, not some entitlement most forum goers have just because they main a character.

For example here:

Do you know how that reads to someone who’s been working on Tank characters for the past 6 months? From drawing a sketch for a character to be modeled, thinking of unique ways you can give the tanks skills that haven’t been used in a game, and then writing scripts for that to work?

I have a tank in my UE4 game that, if you shoot his shield too much, it breaks and he’s put in a negative state (called a BREAK state). His shield gets put on a massive cooldown, an explosion effect happens, and he becomes a more vulnerable character. With more tweaking, I’m sure that I could have a pretty unique tank in my game, but right now I only have his downsides.

Yes, you talk about tank changes. That’s great, but I don’t agree based on the things I’ve actually learned and implemented. Myself. Again, you’re talking to the completely wrong guy if you think I’m going to be impressed by this stuff.

So what? your answer is “more FPS less MOBA”? Because apparently no one wants that on here either. Whichever way you cut it, the tanks need to be tanks. Not “heavies” or “dualists” or whatever. The tanks are tanks and should play like tanks.

I think the current amount of barrier the three tanks have is good- it ensures that when you run double barrier there is not an overwhelming amout of barrier.

The problem with all three barrier tanks right now is they are extremely vulnerable and weak if they are not babysat by healers but are plenty strong enough if they are. If you buff them to make them strong on their own they would be unstoppable when babysat.

My solution is to give all 3 barrier tanks some or more personal regenerating shield without increasing their total effective health. The smaller their barrier, the more their health pool should be a regenerating shield. This will allow them to take a little bit of poke damage and recoup it if they are smart with positioning without a healer having to babysit them while not directly making them stronger in a straight up brawl.

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No. Stop trying to dumb her down. You’re just trying to make every tank a shield bot. I’m not interested in 1-3-2 garbage easy to do Zarya.

The crazy Idea I had. You want tanks to be able to work alone. Buff them, and block healing from the healers to that class. I have no idea if that’s a balance idea that would work. But it can be a suggestion none the less. I rather not get healing at all. Than be limited in what I can do offensively.

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Rein has more barrier than Sigma and Orisa combined. Playing into Rein-Sigma is oppressive as hell.

And I wonder what the GM meta is right now? Oh right, Rein-Sigma.

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Pretty sure the suggestion doesn’t dumb Her down at all. Currently energy decay and cooldowns aside there is one bubble for Zarya and one for an ally.
With no forced allocation you have the above plus the option to basically triple the health of a dps or double the health of a tank to push through a choke and disrupt the enemy team at the cost of sacrificing the defensive bubble ‘normal’ allocation.