Spell Batching Vs Seal of Command - Bugged Interaction

Are you certain that seal twisting worked in Vanilla, if you are, are you also certain that the current implementation of spell batching is the reason it isn’t working?

Think about it this way. How much did Blizzard get right with Classic? Think about it objectively; 99.9% of the game is functioning authentically to Vanilla. There were bugs, yes, but there’s also that huge “not a bug” thread. There’s tons of things people thought had to do with spell batching that turned out it was something else entirely or was just spell batching doing exactly what it did in Vanilla.

It seems the “issues” with spell batching are ever receding as more and more evidence that it’s working correctly is shown.

At first it was “everything is being batched, vendors shouldn’t have artificial lag!” I then showed videos of the exact same lag in Vanilla.

Then it was “enemies shouldn’t be able to run through improved Blizzard, this isn’t Vanilla like!” I then showed multiple videos of enemies running through Improved Blizzard.

As well as numerous other claims that I’ve proven to be false.

It’s just a constant game of people moving the goalposts, we’re now onto seal twisting.

EDIT: Sorry about the wall of text mate haha, hopefully it isnt too annoying to read :sweat_smile:

Mmm I definitely appreciate that there have been countless mis-cited bugs, and inaccurate reports, you are undeniably right about that. But that seems to be an inevitability when it comes to any process similar to this e.g the reproduction of a game, and as a result it definitely falls on the bug ticket issuers as a responsibility to explain their reports as thoroughly as possible and with as much credible supporting information as possible.

To that end I have tried to, provide as much information as possible surrounding these ideas, so this definitely isnt just a random “This is bugged fix it!!11” post haha.

That being said I think moving goal posts is actually an awesome thing rather then a bad thing haha, I mean think about it, what that actually implies is that we have for the most part confirmed undeniably that a large part if not the majority of the game is as close to the original as possible, the more the goal posts move, the better it actually is, until they hit the finish line and we can finally say, this is undeniably and indisputably as close to vanilla as it could be… So lets keep those goal posts moving!

Finally the question of am I certain, lets look at what is certain, Seal Twisting was established and discovered in The Burning Crusade for the most part, that is why the majority of evidence surrounding it is TBC era, so that is the reason for TBC evidence provision, we know Seal of Command is not functioning the same way in Classic as it did in Vanilla, you could cast Judgement instantly or swap seals instantly as the White Swing hit a target in the original version and still get a command proc… you cant in classic, if you swap seals instantly on white swing in classic and resultantly before the calculation is parsed during the next spell batch you will not cast command… that is an indisputable change and correlation between the two versions of the game, and is documented in videos.

Looking further we also know that seal twisting affected both the inital hit and the following command proc in the original game, in classic you can only seal twist the command proc following a white swing once it has procced e.g proccing Seal of Justice off of Seal of Command… a result of the new seal cast not being in the same spell batch as the initiating white swing, seals in classic are applied to white swings in the same batch, that we know is definitely true… and is why command can be applied retroactively by paladins after a swing has already landed… this explains why we dont see double procs while twisting e.g 1 off the initial white and 1 off the procced command hit, like we did in the original game.

Finally Seal of Righteousness procs off of every melee hit no matter what for a paladin, even if the taget is immune it will say the target was immune. Based on this knowledge of the interaction it is pretty clear; we know the spell is not working correctly and we know how the interaction should work, if the system functioned correctly, you should be able to twist Seal of Righteousness off of it, and even if Seal of Command didnt return a Seal of Righteousness hit (which it should since it is for all intents and purposes a melee swing), the initial White Hit definitely should since every white hit returns SoR, resulting in a sequence of:
White Hit + SoR Hit + SoC Hit

However because the PPM calculation of SoC has been pushed back to the spell batch, it is impossible to return this sequence because the new application of SoR will be on a different Spell Batch to the white hit…

So once again, we know seal swapping/judgement casting could be perfomed as soon as the white hit occured in the original game, in classic it cant, we also know that batching isnt an authentic recreation of the system, it was an emulation of it… they literally announced it themselves in the initial post:

So if you are asking if I am sure; I am… however the reality is it isnt really a matter of whether im sure or not, the evidence undeniably proves where the issue lies, we know Seal of Command isnt performing in the same way as it originally did, and it is the cause of the issue.


Alright, I’m looking into various threads and this is what has come up:


2 points ·
8 months ago

Its seal weaving that you are talking about : ) Seal twisting is pretty much the same, but it only works with SoC and SoJ because the damage from soc is delayed by 0.5 sec, hence why the SoJ effect can trigger


1 point · [7 months ago]
I can confirm it works:

With that said, I’m going to engage in some “educated” speculation, based on the mechanics and lots of experience using seal twisting on Emerald Dream. I believe it should work like so:

Command into Righteousness → Nothing happens. This is to be expected, as SoR doesn’t proc off of Crusader Strike in BC either. It’s an ability that strictly procs off of white hits (until a later change, which was reflected in the tooltip).

Command into Crusader → Increased AP for the SoC hit. On Emerald Dream, this would give you a noticeable, but not massive, damage increase. I can’t tell if this is the case on current classic, because the reduced damage of each hit may be a factor.

Command into Light, Wisdom → You will get the seal effect proc from light or wisdom. With a slow enough weapon, I believe this is guaranteed.

Command into Justice → You will get the seal effect proc stun. Note that this may not proc even if twisted correctly.

In particular, look at that screenshot.

Mmm that screenshot actually shows exactly what I was talking about previously, the Seal of Justice proc isnt proccing off of the initial White Swing, it is actually proccing off of the following SoC hit, because the calculation to perform soc has already been performed and confirmed by the server in the spell batch parse which followed the initiating White Swing :slight_smile:

Through Seal Twisting with a fixed version of the system the initial white hit should also be able to proc any activated seal; including SoR because the initial hit is a White Swing, however it cant because you cant swap seals prior to the batch.

Here are some videos I made early in Classic investigating testing while leveling and gearing:

Seal of Crusader into Seal of Command Twisting - Retroactive Seal Application

Seal of Command Post-Hit Twisting Combinations

SoCr into SoR Twisting - Retroactive Seal Application


As far as I’m aware, when you seal twist command you can’t get the other seal to proc on both the white and yellow hit. If you swap to SoC it procs off the white hit and has to be timed at the end of the last swing. If you swap from SoC you might get something if you time it right a little later without a bar.

That is the issue. Seal twisting has always worked best when you swap from SoC because it’s the only way to get the second seal to proc on the command proc. Classic makes this interaction impossible. A clarification from blizzard would be great as missing out on that double SoJ proc chance and that extra SoR damage off the white hit minimum sucks.


2017 says hello

also, get in line

tldr - i don’t even play anymore because of the monkey coding that is Classic - the fact that you think the devs will fix this report or any other of the multiple paladin bugs or that a CM will answer your reporting me is cute to say the least

1 Like

NobleshieldToday at 12:17 PM

if (class == "PALADIN") { return; /* kek */ }


mmm yes sadly that seems to be the case… i guess once again it comes down to waiting and seeing if the devs actually fix what is definitely a bug.

However given the not virtual but literal lack of relevant bug fixes for multiple months now… I would bet that at best Classic now has only a skeleton if any crew running maintenance and bug fixes, with the majority of its staff being tasked with either the release of new content, and the release of The Burning Crusade.

This bug however is one which affects paladins in Classic and then ramps up to a far greater effect and scale in The Burning Crusade, so it is one which will only get more apparent and impactful with time passing… with the advent of Seal of Blood and SoB+SoC Twisting in the TBC… based on that knowledge of what is to come, and the knowledge that this bug wont be swept under the rug with the end of classic and will more then likely be reported multiple times throughout TBC, you would hope that it would at least be slated for attention and consideration in the near future. :man_shrugging:


One can only hope. Well, if this post gets to 1000 replies by the time the devs get back it’ll at least be looked at by an intermediary.


haha very true, hmmm all of these new issues with spell batching zg and trading enchants… more and more issues popping up with this last-minute blanket system of Classic “spell-batching” which they implemented instead of actually attempting to recreate the original system… I wonder how they will address these issues now…

more then likely a quick fix resolution which requires minimum financial investment or scripting time and applies instant resolution purely to the enchants, rather then the comprehensive overhaul which needs to take place to make the spell batch system actually resemble the original games batching mechanic.


Because paladins bad is vanilla apparently.


I wouldnt say paladins are bad, unfortunately paladins are a class where the beauty lies in the detail, e.g reckoning and seal of command… and seemingly small bugs which would at first glance and at a surface level would appear to have a minimal impact, can actually prove to be severely impactful to the class and completely alter the way in which it should perform.


Damn, blizzard finally responds to a lot of bug reports but nothing about paladins. If it isn’t nerfing paladins it isn’t worth mentioning.


Well, yeah, I mean i agree. It feels like whenever paladins find something fun, though, it gets nerfed. And it feels like it gets nerfed mostly because everyone’s opinion of paladin is that, in classic, they’re bad.


haha well I mean it certainly does feel like blizzard have only bothered to fix paladins when they bugged in a beneficial way, and have ignored every single fix which would actually strengthen the class and make it function correctly :sweat_smile:


Unfortunately still no responses or testing of the bug it seems…


They haven’t fixed glaringly obvious bugs from release. I really don’t think they even need this forum up anymore because it’s clear they’re just taking our sub-fees and laughing on the way to the bank.


Please spend some of your fat stacks of sub cash on paying developers to address these issues and community folks to regularly provide replies.

You make millions of dollars, just do it.


Blizzard doesn’t get to make the decisions. Activision tells blizzard that they need to cut back -> blizzard can’t go against the wishes of ignorant money grubby pigs (US law or should I say a single court case forced businesses to be this way) -> customer dissatisfaction that doesn’t eat into quarterly reports being favorable.


At this point it seems as if the team no longer cares about developing classic towards actually matchig the original game, they seem to have adopted the mentality that they dont care about actually finishing it and that this recreation is “close enough”, whether that stems from beuracraric decision making, a lack of funding, resource allocation, or a lack of passion and general apathy whos to say, but given the general lack of posts or bug fixes by any representative in the last few months, and the continuous stream of unaddressed bug reports, it seems as if this may be the final “version” of this recreation… i guess at this point we can just hope that on the release of TBC and with a fresh allocation of funding and resources, we will finally see the seemingly infinitely growing list of issues with the game finally rectified…