Nightfall debuff is way lower than 2PPM stated across the board from classic wowhead

Overall, from class to class and spec to spec who can wield Nightfall we are seeing a drastically lower proc rate for the 2h Axes’ debuff:

I know it says School Physical but is there some form of spell hit where it can be resisted in any way, shape or form?

## SmeetToday at 10:26 AM
@Theloras The numbers look exactly where I'd expect them with a 16% resist The blasted lands uptime tests look like we expected from napkin math based on 2ppm

## ThelorasToday at 10:27 AM
yes i agree @Smeet

## ThelorasToday at 10:27 AM
there's something involved with spell hit going on with Nightfall
in comparing BL mobs to raid bosses

## SmeetToday at 10:41 AM
Pulled up a hunter log from a few days ago that was posted in here. He got 6 procs in 78 hits, or about an 8% proc rate on vael, which is consistent with a spell hit issue.

Or is it subject to a low debuff priority and not able to proc at debuff limit? Was an internal cooldown added to the proc - which would result in the much lower than expected proc rates for Hamstring spam Warriors and Wing Clip spam Hunters?

Multiple indépendant sources from classic wowhead db comments show it should have ~2PPM:

Will it still proc off of glancing blows? Reason I ask, is that we are likewise seeing very different results comparing Blasted Lands Servant mobs which can never die compared to raid bosses.

This was posted in the shaman discord recently:

Likewise, this was posted here on the bug report forums earlier today:


So, was this off the ProcScience image that I see floating around Discord? I have questions per that parse, because it could be very well possible that maybe ProcScience can’t even track refreshes. Or maybe it does? Also, was it just autos? No specials? Doesn’t proc off Fiery Weapon? Etc etc etc. Lots of questions per the testing.

yes, hence all of my questions - if I were a betting man, my money would be on Spell Vulnerability being incorrectly flagged as being on the spell hit table instead of physical/melee hit

seeing as we are seeing vastly different uptime results going from unkillable Blasted Lands mobs in which we have to attack from the front compared to raid bosses attacking from behind

there should be some natural variance between the two results but seeing as the differences appear to be night and day, I think it’s incorrectly flagged as spell hit

IanToday at 12:29 PM

currently, in raids for just paladin logs, looking at 3422 melee hits, 1588 SOC/Rs, 460 JOCs… there are 463 procs averaging to 7.58%

SmeetToday at 12:32 PM

And the hunter logs I was seeing were around that chance in raids too
Closer to 8
And our blasted lands testing had it around 10-12% proc rates

IanToday at 12:33 PM

Even assuming it’s getting resisted 16% of the time in raid, our the 13 logs I have compiled would come out to 9% chance.

SmeetToday at 12:58 PM

If it is being resisted, it may not have a combat log entry. It also doesnt have an activation animation.
Best way to test that theory is to do tests on level 60-63 mobs and look for gradually decreasing proc rates.
We have a good deal of evidence (blasted lands mobs) that the proc rate is higher than what we are seeing in raids.

fusionpitToday at 12:56 PM

What I’m saying is that unlike something like Winter’s Chill
you don’t see any resist messages for Spell Vulnerability
Then again, the Winter’s Chill events don’t have the refresh displayed in WCL, anyone got a raw WoWCombatLog.txt for any of these?
Also does anyone know what this “ProcScience” addon is? I can’t find anything about it

IanToday at 1:02 PM

The ProcScience addon appears to be privately distributed at this point, so it’s tough to speak on its accuracy as it cannot be audited.
Right, so we have a ~20% gap between Blasted Lands and 40 man raid procs right now that ought to be (and is being) explored
2ppm open world proc rate would be ~11.7%. Tests seem to be in that general area in Blasted Lands. In raid, with those 13 logs, only 1 person has hit that rate and it’s an anomaly. Average is 7.8% right now.

Hunter spamming wingclip - only Nightfall in raid.

The hunters casts.

No resists listed on logs, no internal cooldown, procs refresh the debuff.

Hunter isnt using procscience - i do have access to it but im not wasting mats on another nf just to test the proc rate. We do have another crafted and havent decided who should weild it until we get a better spread of proc uptime.


Huh, well that’s a much higher uptime% than what has been reported. Is that the complete log? So, what, ~30% upkeep? Even the proc% is ~10%?

~25% uptime is what I’ve been seeing from hunters on average.

That log is a little higher than that, but not significantly.

That uptime % is typically nowhere near high enough to make a NF hunter valuable though.

Alright, I found the log:

Parsing the log we receive ~43seconds of Spell Vulnerability and during that duration 162,002 damage was caused via spells resulting in a 3726.137dps value. From the CVS log:

arcane shot	264	frostbolt	1094	frostbolt	1268	mind flay	449	shadow bolt	996
corruption	341	frostbolt	1109	frostbolt	1134	mind flay	449	shadow bolt	1109
corruption	324	frostbolt	1004	frostbolt	1191	mind flay	449	shadow bolt	2154
corruption	341	frostbolt	1351	frostbolt	1339	mind flay	384	shadow bolt	1516
corruption	324	frostbolt	1289	frostbolt	1114	mind flay	385	shadow word: pain	428
corruption	341	frostbolt	1118	frostbolt	891	mind flay	385	shadow word: pain	428
corruption	285	frostbolt	1079	frostbolt	969	mind flay	385	shadow word: pain	357
corruption	285	frostbolt	1020	frostbolt	1018	searing totem	45	shadow word: pain	357
corruption	270	frostbolt	1353	frostbolt	1169	searing totem	54	shadow word: pain	346
corruption	276	frostbolt	1131	frostbolt	1708	searing totem	54	shadow word: pain	346
corruption	239	frostbolt	2586	frostbolt	1268	searing totem	68	shadow word: pain	453
corruption	276	frostbolt	1109	frostbolt	1996	searing totem	63	shadow word: pain	466
corruption	239	frostbolt	1023	frostbolt	1500	searing totem	62	shadow word: pain	478
corruption	262	frostbolt	1187	frostbolt	2684	searing totem	62	shadow word: pain	399
corruption	276	frostbolt	1080	frostbolt	1673	searing totem	66	shadow word: pain	399
corruption	262	frostbolt	1746	frostbolt	1119	searing totem	68	thorns	41
corruption	276	frostbolt	1377	frostbolt	1002	searing totem	45	thorns	34
corruption	315	frostbolt	1292	frostbolt	3122	searing totem	62	thorns	34
corruption	293	frostbolt	1180	frostbolt	1334	searing totem	45	thorns	26
corruption	313	frostbolt	1011	frostbolt	1109	searing totem	49	thorns	29
corruption	343	frostbolt	2223	frostbolt	1275	serpent sting	121	thorns	38
corruption	322	frostbolt	1556	frostbolt	1010	shadow bolt	2008	thorns	38
corruption	352	frostbolt	995	frostbolt	1091	shadow bolt	1345	thorns	38
corruption	371	frostbolt	1105	frostbolt	2044	shadow bolt	1020		
corruption	318	frostbolt	2517	frostbolt	1200	shadow bolt	1152		
corruption	275	frostbolt	991	frostbolt	1018	shadow bolt	1124		
corruption	382	frostbolt	1158	frostbolt	964	shadow bolt	823		
corruption	318	frostbolt	3575	frostbolt	1160	shadow bolt	1294		
corruption	301	frostbolt	2279	frostbolt	1656	shadow bolt	1089		
corruption	207	frostbolt	1103	frostbolt	1115	shadow bolt	2649		
corruption	318	frostbolt	1271	frostbolt	1134	shadow bolt	2183		
corruption	301	frostbolt	1007	frostbolt	1024	shadow bolt	2015		
fire shield	56	frostbolt	1190	frostbolt	1679	shadow bolt	2820		
fire shield	57	frostbolt	1354	frostbolt	1183	shadow bolt	1791		
firebolt	60	frostbolt	2279	instant poison vi	186	shadow bolt	2483		
flameshock	309	frostbolt	2157	instant poison vi	176	shadow bolt	1110		
flameshock dot	81	frostbolt	1024	instant poison vi	109	shadow bolt	1464		
flameshock	309	frostbolt	1273	instant poison vi	168	shadow bolt	1309		
flameshock dot	81	frostbolt	2352	lightning shield	227	shadow bolt	1379		
frost shock	953	frostbolt	1097	mind blast	1172	shadow bolt	1324		

Very rough and loose math here without digging into other elements of the log such as Power Infusion/Arcane Power timing, if DoTs snapshot or not, ISB/SV application/refreshes, etc. and we value the Nightfall contribution at roughly ~154.0557692 dps. Thus making the Hunter’s total DPS: ‭273.6557692‬.

Likely it’s lower if you filtered the log deeper, but we can use this as a basis at least. Per Smeet’s call out. Is it worth it? Ehhh. He’d have done more DPS than the best Hunter at least*******, but again. Is that good enough?

The problem with valuing NF in this instance is the log is so long and has many interactions happening at the same time as Spell Vulnerability so that ~154dps is a bit inflated.

If someone wants to write a more indepth tool that can filter out and cross reference the corrected increase of damage when something new is introduced during a SV debuff, such as Power Infusion, Arcane Power, trinket use, Shadow Weaving, Improved Shadow Bolt, etc. More power to ya!

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no hunter will volunteer for wing clip spam for only a 25% proc uptime against a raid boss - no warrior will either lol

Thank you for this data - i dont have to do it now! Going to post your finding to guild.

Oh wait. I didn’t divide the NF contribution by total fight duration. My apologies, been a long day.

So, it’d be 154.0557692*43=6624.398 and then divide that by the duration of the fight and you receive 42.46409 dps. So total DPS from the Hunter would have been roughly ‭162.06409‬dps.

Yea, pretty bad. Sorry for the mix up.

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You might want to check the weapon’s patch note history from Gamepedia (Blizzard won’t let me link URLs in post for some reason) but BRE there were two post vanilla changes to Bonereaver’s Edge, and it’s proc effect. That is when they also tinkered with (lowered) the proc % for BRE. Might be a similar thing for Nightfall?

Either way they have to fix the proc effects for each weapon as they are notably reduced from what was originally intended.

Annnnnnnd I just noticed this guy had Windfury Totem. Welp, scrap everything I just posted above.

that’s how you put in a link with the </> Preformatted text button in the chat window

but if you go through all of the comments listed from Vanilla era players, it consistently shows ~2PPM for Nightfall

is Windfury triggering Nightfall procs? could that account for the higher uptime from his parses?

There seems to be a lot of stuff that’s just broken in Classic 2019…

Some helpful aura’s are not stacking, I just discovered that Backstab is not stacking with base crit (talent backstab) so if you have 30% base crit the talent is worthless.

If you’re naked it’s fine, but if you un-talent your crit chance for backstab while in gear is the same (assuming you have 30% base crit)

Found the same problem with Evasion not stacking with Base dodge; LOL this game has so many issues…

T1 set bonus 5PC making FD just not practical, and the list goes on!

I’d have to honestly dig into it. I’m about to head to bed and probably won’t have time to look back at this until Wednesday or Friday honestly.

you guys agree with me though that SOMETHING is way off here in the parses that we are seeing from raid boss fights right?

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Actually. I’m too tired for this crap haha. Need to restart brain and look at this later. Been chatting this in discord too and just my process of tackling this has been horrific, haha. Burnt out.

We tried to get him a hoj also. Trying to see max possible uptime on it per hunter before we sell the other one or hand to to a shammy/fury warr/another hunter.

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you are a gentleman and a scholar


HolyfrogToday at 6:39 PM

Another update on Nightfall. Wanted to see if Nightfall can in fact proc on Glancing blows in case the ProcScience addon already filtered out the glancing for some reason.

Can see in the combat log that both the two last hits glanced, and the proc is on full duration. So it can indeed proc on glancing blows
That leaves spellhit to be tested
Im trying to think of anything else that might have caused the 1ppm data earlier but Im really lost for ideas. Even if the proc for some weird reason was subject to spellhit it should not have its procrate lowered by 50%

Little sidenote about the findings - i didnt account for the hunters auto attacks. So with 112 possible attacks that landed and dealt damage including blocked and glancing (wc+autoattack+raptor strike) 13 of those had a proc. 8.61% proc rate (112/13)

If it was listed in vanilla with a 2ppm

(60 (seconds) /3.5 (base weapon speed) ) = 17.14 (swings in a min)
2/17.14 = .1166 or 11.66%

Is my math correct that its actually correct or very close to being correct if the proc is based on the swing and not landed?

EDIT - didnt take into account all misses/dodges - of 133 casts 112 landed. Updated math.