Spell Batching Vs Seal of Command - Bugged Interaction

Currently Seal of Command is bugged, in a manner where the calculation of whether the spell will actually trigger or not (The PPM Calculation) is being delayed until the next Spell Batch which follows the initiating White Swing, this scripting interaction is incorrect; the calculation of whether the spell should trigger or not should happen instantaneously as the initiating White Swing occurs. The reason this bug is currently occurring is more than likely due to the “Spell Batching” (Spell Prioritisation) System which has been implemented throughout classic, and as a result the procs calculation is being pushed back to the next batch incorrectly, leading to scripting which does not accurately reflect how the spell should function.

Luckily when looking at Seal of Command we know exactly how it should function in relation to spell batches, because we have countless videos of Seal Twisting a technique employed throughout The Burning Crusade by paladins, where the player would “Twist” Seal of Command around a spell batch, in order to gain the benefits of two seals off of one hit, a mechanic which can be seen in the videos attached at the bottom of this post.

The method through which Seal Twisting worked was through a player would wait for their character to perform a White Swing with Seal of Command active, as the White Swing occured the server would then instantly calculate whether Seal of Command would proc or not, at this point before the next Server Batch took place, the player would then swap seals, this meant that when the server batch actually happened it would check the players buffs and recognise that you had a seal such as Seal of Righteousness or Seal of Blood active, and as a result apply the relevant damage effect of that seal in addition to the initial White Swing… At this point however, the Seal of Command proc had already been calculated and confirmed by the server, and so your character would then perform Seal of Command, at which point the server would notice again that you had Seal of Righteousness or Seal of Blood active, and as a result apply the relevant damage effect of that seal… in effect 4 attacks from 1 swing.

This is a documented and undisputable mechanic which existed throughout both Vanilla and The Burning Crusade. Unfortunately however this is not how Seal of Command works in classic, and so the spell does not work accurately at all. While you should be able to swap seals following a white swing but before the following server batch and reap the rewards of Seal Twisting, in its current state and scripting; this does not occur. Because the PPM calculation of the spell has been pushed back to the batch following the initiating white swing, this means if you change Seal, cast Judgement, or are dispelled prior to the spell batch parsing then your character will never perform Seal of Command no matter what, an interaction which does not reflect the original game or the recorded documentation we have of it. What this also means is that paladins are currently able to retroactively apply Seal of Command, meaning that if a shaman purges a Paladin right before they swing, the Paladin then swings, and then following the swing the Paladin activates Seal of Command, the Paladin will still hit the Shaman with Seal of Command regardless of whether the seal was active at the incident of the swing, another interaction which should not take place.

Furthermore based on the principles of Seal Twisting, if a paladin Seal Twists Seal of Righteousness off of Seal of Command before the Spell Batch following a white swing, the following interaction should occur:

A White Swing hits a target with Seal of Command active, before the next Spell Batch the paladin activates Seal of Righteousness, Seal of Righteousness hits the target (from the initial White Swing), Seal of Command Procs, Seal of Righteousness hits the target (from the Seal of Command melee Swing).

e.g [White + SoR + SoC+ SoR]

Currently however due to the Proc calculation being pushed back to the next Spell Batch all that happens is the player hits the target with a White Swing and Seal of Righteousness, and the Seal of Command hit never occurs.

In conclusion, based on actual footage of the game; and first hand knowledge of using the mechanic, we know that swapping seals or casting judgement instantly as a white swing hits the target should not stop a Seal of Command hit from occurring, in fact it should enable Seal Twisting. However, currently; due to the calculation of the proc chance occurring during the following spell batch, the spell is not performing in the same manner in which it functioned in the original game, and so is not scripted correctly. This issue will only compound with the release of The Burning Crusade, as Seal Twisting was a defining part of it for Paladins and an extremely effective method of boosting their dps, and due to the bugged way in which it functions currently; this mechanic will more then likely not function in the future.

Please fix this bug as soon as possible, the original Blizzard Devs of vanilla WoW have already announced that the original coding of Vanilla featured hard-coded script resolution for some mechanics i.e scripts which ignore spell batching and are resolved instantaneously, the Proc calculation of Seal of Command is one of these hard-coded scripts. This bug has been present since the start of Classic WoW and affects paladins in a fairly major and detrimental way.

Best regards,

Archeon.

Evidence:



Examples of How Seal Twisting is performing currently in Classic:

Seal of Crusader into Seal of Command Twisting - Retroactive Seal Application

Seal of Command Post-Hit Twisting Combinations

SoCr into SoR Twisting - Retroactive Seal Application

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Hahahaha sadly I feel the same…

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I think the pandemic will be affecting the ability of blizzard to fix things because I doubt they would let the devs work from home with proprietary code. Fingers crossed they fix this because paladins can use anything they can get.

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We’ve been telling them about the bugs induced by their broken spell-batching since release. They don’t seem to care. It would probably be more work than they’re prepared to put into the game at this point.

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Well the problem isn’t just spell batching. Spell batching is a thing that is even in retail. The difference is the interval timing and most likely backend coding and priority settings.

I personally can’t see seal twisting even being possible in a TBC classic even if they shortened the interval timing to retail levels. Something else is probably the issue for that.

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You are right, in that the issue isn’t completely spell batching… and yes spell batching definitely does exist in retail, as you mentioned the issue lies at the back end of coding and specifically the priority system.

However, Unfortunately; at this point it seems that changing the interval timings would have no effect in resolving the issues with other spells or for that matter Seal Twisting, the issue fundamentally lies in the development process and implementation of the Spell Prioritisation / Spell Batching System.

By this I mean that in the Classic Wow Version of the game, it seems that an over-arching spell prioritisation system was implemented where every spell no matter what it was or how it should be resolved or function, was categorised as a low priority spell and should be processed by the server in this manner… The reality is however; and we know this as the developers who actually developed the original code have clearly stated it, that ontop of this fundamental system lay another, this being spells and abilities which should be instantly resolved, in-spite of the Spell Batching system.

The problem is, that this instant resolution level of development of spells which existed in the original game, was never actually developed in classic, and so what we have is an iteration of the spell batch system which is actually 1 or 2 steps behind its predecessor unfortunately.

Saddly it is due to this lack of progress in development of the system, that we do not currently have correctly scripted spells such as Seal of Command, hopefully however the devs will actually correct the system to match how the original devs have stated it functioned in classic, time will tell i guess :sweat_smile:.

Especially given that The Burning Crusade is on the horizon, I mean could you imagine having this same inaccurate Spell Batch system; without instant resolution in TBC or WotLK? Where nothing is instantly resolved ever? Thats really what scares me…

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Wow, he really flat out called it dead on the money like you said. This guy worked for blizzard it seems, oh wow he was a dev at blizzard for vanilla. Ok that’s cred enough for me. So this guy was the class dev from Vanilla though Wrath and even shortly before cata, thats OG legit.

Makes so much more sense now why the old vanilla and even the private servers feel so good because that original client is just better and really better than this legion client is.

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Kevin Jordan talking about Hunter traps having special case coding, like he thought interrupts did, so that they couldn’t be run over without without triggering. Admits he has no idea the tech involved:

https://clips.twitch.tv/BrightAntsyHorseradishPeanutButterJellyTime

Bug report thread from 2006, multiple people complaining about players/mobs running over traps and not triggering them:

https://web.archive.org/web/20060527102237/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-bugs&t=53523&p=1&tmp=1#post53523

Kaivax confirming the same thing:

QA confirmation that spell batching isn’t even the culprit for the issues with Hunter traps. Further proves that Kevin Jordan was right in admitting to not knowing the tech, because traps obviously didn’t have special case coding:

I think it’s time to admit that the reference client Blizzard uses isn’t a myth, and they’ve confirmed that spell batching is working correctly.

Celestalon saying interrupts were on the batch:
https://i.redd.it/za5hs503nyn11.png

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I personally believe they have a reference client. I also know that they have used it to mask changes with a believable lie. You can’t prove anything with evidence that doesn’t exist however and that hurts.

Either way, it should be fairly simple to add an override system which would fix this issue and the feign death issue.

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According to that guy the delay is between 0 and 400, that math says the whole batch experience is 400 milliseconds or less between all parties involved. The guy you linked also had the same job, but held it for a short time. Who is actually right about it? Maybe they are both right, the batching works like blue dragon says and the interrupts work like Kevin says. Just because it’s a blue post doesn’t actually make it totally perfect.

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Actually, what hes saying is that he doesnt know the tech involved to reproduce the mechanic, this video is a continuation of the last, and at no point whatsoever does he ever go back on his previous statement:

e.g

Stealthed rogues can walk through traps unaffected. Warriors can charge through freezing trap unaffected. If traps are now “stealthed”, getting too close to one should inevitably trap the player.

“Traps are not activating when players stealth or charge over them. (07/30) (Fixed? 1.8)
wowwiki.fandom .com/wiki/Patch_1.8.0 - 10 October 2005

Bug noticed 07/30 and confirmed fixed in patch 1.8 by 10/10 in the same post lol… got to read those sources more carefully, so it would seem code was written to implement instant resolution for the spell; and is documented within your own source.

Noone in this thread has ever once denied there is a reference client, we also have recorded cases where blizzard has masked changes with believable lies.

It took all of 5 seconds to find a video, which demonstrates instant resolution of interrupts haha

Laintime - Interrupting


7:08 - Paladin Starts Healing
7:09 - Laintime casts Pummel
7:09 - Paladin literally stops casting the second he casts it

compare that to classic and well yeah no the a side by side video isnt even comparable, I will edit and upload a video when i get back from work… I will take the word of the original class developer from Vanilla though Wrath and even shortly before cata, over that of a guy who held it for a very short time any day of the week, regarding the systems and development of the actual game he helped to create.

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I can find the same thing on Classic.

will reply later I need to go now, however out of interest what is your actual argument? that seal twisting a video recorded, documented and known technique in tbc didnt exist? that the technique didnt function the way it worked in spite of the fact we know exactly how it functioned? that seal of command ppm resolution shouldnt happen at the instance of the white swing when videos prove that it did, through demonstrating changing seals before the proc happened? or that seal of command is currently functioning correctly in classic, when it very clearly and obviously isnt when you do side by side comparisons of actual footage of the original game?

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Every single time I use TBC as evidence that something worked the way it did, I’m told to find Vanilla evidence, like this:

There is an obvious attempt by many Paladins to search with bias for anything they can use in an attempt to persuade Blizzard to buff them. The double standard here is real.

What is my argument? My argument is that spell batching is working in an authentic manner. My goal is to get spell batching removed/changed to the Modern system. I don’t want it “fixed” or tuned, I want this archaic, awful system removed.

Blizzard obviously believes it’s working properly, even if by some small chance it isn’t. None of these “No-changers” want to admit they were wrong in ever asking for it, so they blame Blizzard for getting it wrong. That’s not ever going to get Blizzard to change it, admitting the community was wrong and asking nicely for it to change might.

This doesn’t help, not one bit.

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please do not compare me to Archeon - thank you

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hmm based on this assertion that it is not bugged, then could you please explain using the current system why seal twisting does not work; and how if the current system is working correctly, Seal Twisting will all of a sudden start working in the future, when you cant twist before the batch and get a seal to affect the white and yellow hit? I would actually like to understand your thought process rather then blanket statements, think about the mechanics yourself…

I have broken down for you in a “play-by-play” run through; exactly how seal twisting worked in the original game, as well as explained why seal of command does not function the same way in a method which has been backed up be multiple sources.

Instead of just saying you believe its not bugged rationally think through the interactions yourself and explain, your thought process and rationality behind your assertion… e.g how you think given the current series of interactions of the spells they will produce the same results as the original game.

I think you will quickly come to the conclusion yourself once you do this that; given we know that Seal of Command is not calculating ppm till after the parse; which videos show it should not do, that it is impossible that:
A) the spell is functioning correctly and…
B) the spell will be able to facilitate seal twisting; a known and undeniable mechanic… since you cant swap seals before the parse.

Im honestly not trying to call you out but just think through the interactions yourself, theres a disconnect…

EDIT:
Also while i think that would be interesting removing batching entiely that is an entirely different pursuit, argument, and ambition… All I am trying to do here is recreate the actual original game as accurately as possible, that that begins with pointing out interactions which dont seem to line up with documented recordings of original gameplay mechanics

it finally reached 60… tagged and reported as trolling.

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Are you certain that seal twisting worked in Vanilla, if you are, are you also certain that the current implementation of spell batching is the reason it isn’t working?

Think about it this way. How much did Blizzard get right with Classic? Think about it objectively; 99.9% of the game is functioning authentically to Vanilla. There were bugs, yes, but there’s also that huge “not a bug” thread. There’s tons of things people thought had to do with spell batching that turned out it was something else entirely or was just spell batching doing exactly what it did in Vanilla.

It seems the “issues” with spell batching are ever receding as more and more evidence that it’s working correctly is shown.

At first it was “everything is being batched, vendors shouldn’t have artificial lag!” I then showed videos of the exact same lag in Vanilla.

Then it was “enemies shouldn’t be able to run through improved Blizzard, this isn’t Vanilla like!” I then showed multiple videos of enemies running through Improved Blizzard.

As well as numerous other claims that I’ve proven to be false.

It’s just a constant game of people moving the goalposts, we’re now onto seal twisting.

EDIT: Sorry about the wall of text mate haha, hopefully it isnt too annoying to read :sweat_smile:

Mmm I definitely appreciate that there have been countless mis-cited bugs, and inaccurate reports, you are undeniably right about that. But that seems to be an inevitability when it comes to any process similar to this e.g the reproduction of a game, and as a result it definitely falls on the bug ticket issuers as a responsibility to explain their reports as thoroughly as possible and with as much credible supporting information as possible.

To that end I have tried to, provide as much information as possible surrounding these ideas, so this definitely isnt just a random “This is bugged fix it!!11” post haha.

That being said I think moving goal posts is actually an awesome thing rather then a bad thing haha, I mean think about it, what that actually implies is that we have for the most part confirmed undeniably that a large part if not the majority of the game is as close to the original as possible, the more the goal posts move, the better it actually is, until they hit the finish line and we can finally say, this is undeniably and indisputably as close to vanilla as it could be… So lets keep those goal posts moving!

Finally the question of am I certain, lets look at what is certain, Seal Twisting was established and discovered in The Burning Crusade for the most part, that is why the majority of evidence surrounding it is TBC era, so that is the reason for TBC evidence provision, we know Seal of Command is not functioning the same way in Classic as it did in Vanilla, you could cast Judgement instantly or swap seals instantly as the White Swing hit a target in the original version and still get a command proc… you cant in classic, if you swap seals instantly on white swing in classic and resultantly before the calculation is parsed during the next spell batch you will not cast command… that is an indisputable change and correlation between the two versions of the game, and is documented in videos.

Looking further we also know that seal twisting affected both the inital hit and the following command proc in the original game, in classic you can only seal twist the command proc following a white swing once it has procced e.g proccing Seal of Justice off of Seal of Command… a result of the new seal cast not being in the same spell batch as the initiating white swing, seals in classic are applied to white swings in the same batch, that we know is definitely true… and is why command can be applied retroactively by paladins after a swing has already landed… this explains why we dont see double procs while twisting e.g 1 off the initial white and 1 off the procced command hit, like we did in the original game.

Finally Seal of Righteousness procs off of every melee hit no matter what for a paladin, even if the taget is immune it will say the target was immune. Based on this knowledge of the interaction it is pretty clear; we know the spell is not working correctly and we know how the interaction should work, if the system functioned correctly, you should be able to twist Seal of Righteousness off of it, and even if Seal of Command didnt return a Seal of Righteousness hit (which it should since it is for all intents and purposes a melee swing), the initial White Hit definitely should since every white hit returns SoR, resulting in a sequence of:
White Hit + SoR Hit + SoC Hit

However because the PPM calculation of SoC has been pushed back to the spell batch, it is impossible to return this sequence because the new application of SoR will be on a different Spell Batch to the white hit…

So once again, we know seal swapping/judgement casting could be perfomed as soon as the white hit occured in the original game, in classic it cant, we also know that batching isnt an authentic recreation of the system, it was an emulation of it… they literally announced it themselves in the initial post:

So if you are asking if I am sure; I am… however the reality is it isnt really a matter of whether im sure or not, the evidence undeniably proves where the issue lies, we know Seal of Command isnt performing in the same way as it originally did, and it is the cause of the issue.

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Alright, I’m looking into various threads and this is what has come up:

Cromer3535
2 points ·
8 months ago

Its seal weaving that you are talking about : ) Seal twisting is pretty much the same, but it only works with SoC and SoJ because the damage from soc is delayed by 0.5 sec, hence why the SoJ effect can trigger

bostonpigstar

1 point · [7 months ago]
I can confirm it works:
https://imgur.com/sfjjD5p

With that said, I’m going to engage in some “educated” speculation, based on the mechanics and lots of experience using seal twisting on Emerald Dream. I believe it should work like so:

Command into Righteousness -> Nothing happens. This is to be expected, as SoR doesn’t proc off of Crusader Strike in BC either. It’s an ability that strictly procs off of white hits (until a later change, which was reflected in the tooltip).

Command into Crusader -> Increased AP for the SoC hit. On Emerald Dream, this would give you a noticeable, but not massive, damage increase. I can’t tell if this is the case on current classic, because the reduced damage of each hit may be a factor.

Command into Light, Wisdom -> You will get the seal effect proc from light or wisdom. With a slow enough weapon, I believe this is guaranteed.

Command into Justice -> You will get the seal effect proc stun. Note that this may not proc even if twisted correctly.

In particular, look at that screenshot.

Mmm that screenshot actually shows exactly what I was talking about previously, the Seal of Justice proc isnt proccing off of the initial White Swing, it is actually proccing off of the following SoC hit, because the calculation to perform soc has already been performed and confirmed by the server in the spell batch parse which followed the initiating White Swing :slight_smile:

Through Seal Twisting with a fixed version of the system the initial white hit should also be able to proc any activated seal; including SoR because the initial hit is a White Swing, however it cant because you cant swap seals prior to the batch.

Here are some videos I made early in Classic investigating testing while leveling and gearing:

Seal of Crusader into Seal of Command Twisting - Retroactive Seal Application

Seal of Command Post-Hit Twisting Combinations

SoCr into SoR Twisting - Retroactive Seal Application

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