"Lightforging = brainwashing" debunked

Lore Story Forum
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There’s no actual evidence that Lightforging itself does brainwashing at this point, just edgelord fan theories.

The closest thing to evidence of brainwashing is a twisted interpretation of one character’s words - Geya’rah - and that scenario was a one-sided snapshot of the situation. Addendum: evidence for my claim;

    1. If Xe’ra could brainwash Alleria with Lightforging, why bother imprisoning her? If Lightforging was brainwashing and Xe’ra would force it on the unwilling there’s no reason she wouldn’t have used it on Alleria.
    1. Xe’ra’s attempted forced Lightforging of Illidan doesn’t necessarily mean she’d control his actions. She could’ve just swapped his fel magic for the Light.
    1. The Lightforged Draenei didn’t defend Xe’ra when Illidan attacked her, nor did they try to harm Illidan after he killed her, either of which would’ve happened if she’d brainwashed them (that Turalyon attacked Illidan rather than them indicates there wasn’t mind-control involved).
    1. Why did Turalyon and Lothraxion challenge Xe’ra when they thought she wanted to harm Alleria? The fact that they directly challenged Xe’ra on a major issues proves she wasn’t controlling them.
    1. There are ways to brainwash people without using supernatural power, what’s to say the “Lightbound” didn’t use those instead? Name one character who is mind-controlled by the Light.

“Lightbinding” at this point is a theoretical concept, but seems distinct from Lightforging.

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Seemed pretty clear to me that Xe’ra’s intentions towards Illidan quickly went from amicable to forced. Whether the light itself brainwashes people or not she doesn’t seem above it, especially if the AU is any indication.

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Maybe Xe’ra would do that, but I don’t think she had that ability. Her forced Lightforging of Illidan could’ve done nothing but swap Illidan’s fel magic for the Light. I’m saying that the evidence debunks the “Lightforging is brainwashing” bandwagon theory.

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You haven’t actually posted any evidence to support your “debunking” theory.

This is, what, your 3rd or 4th thread regarding this exact same topic (the benevolence of the Light in the WoW universe)?

Keep crusading, I guess.

:pancakes:

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one could say that Alleria has been brainwashed as voidforged. which was the end result of her “curiosity” got her.

I say that light/void as well as all other cosmic powers have corruptive powers which is why there is always a balancing force to keep the corruption at bay from tipping the scale.

I guess you stopped watching that cinematic after she was rolfstomped by Illidan b/c Turalyon attacked him after the spell/aura of brainwashing drained from his body…

Oh and sensible people would have tried to help Illidan b/c it was clearly against his consent…

When did this happen? And thats pretty ballsy for a dreadlord to take on a prime naaru when his entire job is to blend in the brainwashed masses of the cosmic powers…

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Thadeus you are not debunking anything. Also why do you care, the brainwashing makes for better story than “light good, not light bad”. Go play the paladin you want to be.

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Gonna have to agree with others in this thread that you haven’t presented sufficient evidence to debunk anything. You’re kind of using the word debunked like a media buzz word to make your thoughts carry more weight, but all you’ve presented is your own interpretation of events as fact. At best, you’ve presented nothing more than an alternate head-canon to compete with the existing head-canon.

I’m not saying your wrong exactly, but there’s no indication you are entirely right either. We’ll have to wait for the Light to be more fully explored before we can determine exactly how ‘benevolent’ Lightforging and Ligjtbinding are.

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I went at length with Thadeus over this topic and others a while back.

Yeah, I don’t think Xe’ra’s brainwashing/controlling people in that she can’t simply dictate others’ actions on a personal level/puppet on a string sort of way. But she’s definitely manipulative, engages in coerced indoctrination and has great tools for doing it.

She can also grant visions to people, like she did to Turalyon and Alleria when Turalyon went through his Lightforging process. She can forge mental connections with people so she can watch them at all times and-when they do things she doesn’t like- pop into their mind and go, “I know what you’re doing/thinking. You’d better not.” She forges a similar mental bond with the player.

Then, when Alleria did disobey her and she was still mulling over her options, she looked into Turalyon’s heart/mind and read it before she actually bothered to explain what she was even going to do. Turalyon, fearing what Xe’ra might do, could only think to beg for mercy in the face of some unknown punishment for his wife, only to go about carrying out Xe’ra’s orders when it eventually came down.

Xe’ra also intentionally withholds information from those under her, particularly information that might not be a good look. As exemplified when Turalyon apparently had no idea that naaru go through a void phase, despite having spent a thousand years serving them. And Velen goes on to explain that there are several other things Xe’ra didn’t want him to know.

Or when she had us help her track down Illidan, totally leaving us in the dark about what her actual intentions for him were i.e. the forced lightforging/lightbinding/whatever whether he wanted it or not. Obviously, consent wasn’t a factor she thought needed to be addressed.

And that’s before all the mess going down on AU Draenor, which has some pretty cult-y vibes going on with how the Mag’har are being systemically converted and wiped out.

Hopefully, if we see any more of her, the true extent of her methods and breadth/depth of her influence is going to be revealed.

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1 - Xe’ra was threatening to kill her

2 - Have you literally not done the LF Draenei unlock scenario? What Xe’ra was doing looks nothing like the light forging ritual, which is much closer to a spiritual journey.

3 - However, one of the few in the room who we know was directly touched by Xe’ra tries to kill Illidan immediately

4 - Turalyon’s challenge amounted to “what about life imprisonment” knowing full well the woman of his life was going to die. In effect, torn between both loyalties. And he still negotiated for something that, given he’s a human, would have been several lifetimes.

5 - How is this even relevant. Yes, Yrel could be doing cult brainwashing but frankly I’d rather she be a bit more redeemable than that lmao

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Xe’ra actually never threatens to kill Alleria. She just told her that she would not tolerate cooperation between the forces of the Light and the Void. It’s worth noting that she did this while psychically monitoring Alleria’s thoughts/actions by the way.

When Alleria returns to Xe’ra to face her judgement, before Xe’ra even mentions what the exact punishment will be, Turalyon asks for mercy. He never suggests imprisonment as an alternative. Nobody knew what Xe’ra was going to do at tha point.

It’s only after Xe’ra looks into Turalyon that she basically goes, “I think life imprisonment should suffice.” and everyone goes along with it. Although Turalyon admits to someone else after the fact that the decision still pains him because he trusts both Xe’ra and Alleria.

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Lol you don’t need to brainwash to be bad the light isn’t brainwashing anyone but that doesn’t mean they aren’t killing people be destroying planets

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Not technically brainwash but influencing people’s zealotry at least, I personally don’t mind if the light does that, because it’d be at least somewhat interesting.

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If not brainwashing/mental conditioning then what does the “I AM my scars!!” exchange mean?

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Well I mean Xe’ra didn’t open up their cranium and then throw their brain in a washing machine.

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In fairness since it failed, we don’t know if Xe’ra’s intended conversion would have significantly changed who Illidan was, or if it would’ve just resulted in the same old reckless jerk with a martyr complex utilizing a different aesthetic and flavor of magic.

Because when it comes right down to it, was Xe’ra’s fixation upon making her prophesied vision come true that different from Illidan’s own narrow, uncompromising mindset when it comes to making everyone do things his way whether they want to or not? Illidan may well have fit right into the Army of the Light just the way he is, only sans the fel energy and demonic trappings.

That is, assuming Xe’ra actually intended to successfully transform him at all, and wasn’t playing a M’uru/sin’dorei gambit by goading him into that response on purpose. After all, we never actually got to see with certainty what Xe’ra’s vision of the future was. We only saw what Illidan had seen of it during the novel: a vision presented to him by an elder naaru (likely Xe’ra), meaning it was what she wanted Illidan to see at that time and by no means absolutely guaranteed to be the actual outcome she was ultimately trying to fulfill by showing it to him.

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I posted several bullet points of evidence. Since you clearly aren’t’ illiterate and haven’t provided any counterarguments, it looks like you and those who upvoted your comment are just in denial because you want Lightforging to be brainwashing since you all like that idea, lore and facts be damned…

especially since this post isn’t about the morality of the Light, but evidence against the fan theory that Lightforging is brainwashing.

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No, you didn’t. You asked questions.

This isn’t evidence.

This isn’t evidence, it’s a theory.

This isn’t evidence, it’s an assumption.

This isn’t evidence, it’s a theory.

This isn’t evidence.

If you say so…

:pancakes:

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The fact remains… and one you insist on denying or ignoring, is that Turalyon still challenged and disagreed with Xe’ra. Disagreement’s not allowing where brainwashing is involved, ergo getting Lightforged in and of itself didn’t brainwash Turalyon.

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Yeah, I don’t think Xe’ra’s brainwashing/controlling people in that she can’t simply dictate others’ actions on a personal level/puppet on a string sort of way. But she’s definitely manipulative, engages in coerced indoctrination and has great tools for doing it.

BUT, she can also grant visions to people, like she did to Turalyon and Alleria when Turalyon went through his Lightforging process. She can forge mental connections with people so she can watch them at all times and-when they do things she doesn’t like- pop into their mind and go, “I know what you’re doing/thinking. You’d better not.” She forges a similar mental bond with the player.

Then, when Alleria did disobey her and she was still mulling over her options, she looked into Turalyon’s heart/mind and read it before she actually bothered to explain what she was even going to do. Turalyon, fearing what Xe’ra might do, could only think to beg for mercy in the face of some unknown punishment for his wife, only to go about carrying out Xe’ra’s orders when it eventually came down.

Turalyon never “challenges” Xe’ra. He begs for mercy-even though he has no ide what the punishment is. Xe’ra looks into him delivers a punishment and he goes along with it.

Because she doesn’t control him directly like a puppet with direct control over his mind and body, but she absolutely does play mind games, hide information from him and manipulate him in a way that makes him loyal to her in a way that he probably wouldn’t be if he knew the full truth of what she’s doing.

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At this point, it’s my head-canon vs your head-canon. Turalyon can’t have tried to kill Illidan because he was brainwashed by Lightforging when none of the Lightforged Draenei did likewise. Xe’ra wanted Alleria to take up the Light, if Xe’ra was such a fanatical control freak and Lightforging can mind-control someone, she would’ve done it… but she didn’t. So you have to admit either Xe’ra wasn’t a fanatical control freak or Lightforging can’t do what you claim.

Plus, as Dalrond stated below, what would that mean for Lightforged Draenei PCs? And wouldn’t that also mean Void Elves are brainwashed (and then there’s the Void Elf PCs).

My headcanon fits the events of the lore, while yours is a bandwagon based on the current zeitgeist Facts are not a democracy.

This “extreme order vs extreme chaos” has been done, and trying to make “Light bad” a curveball doesn’t equal a good story in and of itself. If twists automatically make a story good, M. Night Shyamalan would be more high-grossing and renowned than Steven Spielberg or Francis Ford Coppola… but he’s not.

By the way, quote-mining makes you and your claims look bad, especially since it looks like you quote-mined your own reply (even if you maybe copy-pasted a previous remark to repeat it to me).