A better expansion idea than “Light Crusade”

[Tammy-wyrmrest-accord]

[quote=“Thadeus-caelestrasz, post:232, topic:1100665, full:true”]

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

No, I’m pretty consistent and I always provide quotes and references to support my claims when asked. You’re the one who keeps saying people are accusing you of things, directly contradicting lore, and in the one instance you posted any kind of actual evidence to support your arguments, you cherry picked out the stuff that directly contradicted your own point.

No, you’ve deliberately ignored evidence I’ve provided in this thread and others, and you once again repeated old accusations against me, further proving me right. But credit where credit is due, you responded to my entire comment this time.

Which evidence and arguments have I ignored and what evidence did I leave out in order to cherry pick?

The aquir and n’raqi emerged from the organic matter that already existed on Azeroth when inadvertently exposed to the Old Gods void energies. Just like Gnomes, Dwarves and Vrykul resulted from the inorganic constructs intentionally corrupted by void energy. and indeed, many of these entities serve the Old Gods as part of their cults… that’s WHY the Old Gods hit them with the Curse of Flesh. They weren’t mortals before, and the Old Gods created them to be more easily influenced and serve as soldiers so they do count. Neither was the Locus Walker mortal before becoming one with the void.

Have you even read the Chronicles? You’re wrong on all counts. First, the aqir and n’raqi are purely products of the Old Gods. This is canon, including the Chronicles, quote (bold added for emphasis);

“Like gargantuan, cancerous pustules, the Old Gods spread their corruptive influence across the landscape. The lands around them seethed and withered, turning black and lifeless for leagues upon leagues. All the while, the tendrils of the Old Gods wormed into the world’s crust, slithering deeper and deeper toward the defenseless heart of Azeroth.”
“Organic matter seeped from the Old Gods’ blighted forms, giving rise to two distinct races. The first were the cunning and intelligent n’raqi, also known as the “faceless ones.” The second were the aqir, insectoids of incredible resilience and strength. As the physical manifestations of the Old Gods’ will, both of these races would serve their masters with fanatical loyalty.” World of Warcraft Chronicle, Volume 1, page 30.

So like I said, the aquir and n’raqi from the Old Gods infusing with and influence Azeroth. They didn’t just pop out of Void and Shadow. You also skipped the part in Chronicles about how the Old God’s curse of flesh created Gnomes, Dwarves, Vrykul and Humans. without the Old Gods and the Void, those races wouldn’t exist.

As for Locus-Walker… in a CDev Q&A with Chris Metzen and Alex Afrasiabi, they confirmed that the Ethereals had physical bodies but lost them in their mostly failed attempt to protect themselves from Dimensius with arcane magic (I can’t post the CDev link because my rank isn’t high enough on the forums). No mention of them being immortal beforehand; the Ethereals are like a more extreme version of Void Elves, or are you going to say the Old Gods created the elves of Azeroth too?

I’m saying the Old Gods don’t create anything form nothing. They influence and change. even the Void Lords themselves have trouble maintain permanent forms for long and have to feed on matter and other stuff to sustain themselves. They only create life by messing with what’s already there, be it worlds like Azeroth, machines, or peoples’ souls/bodies.

I accuse you of trying present the Light as flawless in the sense that it is only all good and not bad. The truth is that it has some bad qualities. And Xe’ra, the Lightbound, and Scarlets exemplify them.

But are any bad qualities from Xe’ra, Yrel’s group and the Scarlets due to the Light or just inherent to the characters themselves?

The bad qualities are their campaigns of genocide and forcible conversion. This related to the Light because they Light feeds of conviction and can only see limited possibilities, resulting in a tendency towards zealotry and in the most extreme cases, intolerance for anything they deem not Light enough. And the Light by itself is not enough to sustain life as we know it in the universe. It has to be balanced out with other cosmic forces to various degrees.

On a related note, trying to act as if the Scarlets are all gone and ignoring the existence of the Brotherhood, Apostates from the Onslaught, Pilgrims, etc shows you’re still not exactly comfortable with them being in game either and would rather pretend they’re all gone. And you’ve never seemed to accept the fact that Xe’ra and the Light as a force can be bad or even how she could be a threat.

I explained how the Brotherhood, Apostates, Onslaught and Pilgrims aren’t part of the Crusade; are you attacking a strawman by pretending I ignored them, or did you not actually read my whole comment? And do you not know what an APOSTATE is?

Mariella and her ilk left the ONSLAUGHT, which was an even more extremist sect of the Crusade. She left because they were extremists even by Scarlet Crusade standards. Mariella and her followers are still Scarlets and still wear the uniform, though.

Exactly. Mariella and her ilk left the Onslaught, so they’re not members of any Scarlet group now. As for why they still wear the uniform; when did we have time to also pick up their wallets and a change of clothes while saving them from execution? The Crimson Pilgrims are equally likely to be former members of the Scarlet Crusade, Brotherhood or Onslaught as current members. Given the Alliance, Horde and Kirin Tor know the Scarlet Crusade and Scarlet Onslaught as enemies, how could current members of them openly walk around Dalaran unchallenged?

And I agreed. They aren’t part of the crusade. They’re part of the SCARLETS. The crusade isn’t part of the Brotherhood, Onslaught, or Apostates either, but the crusade are still Scarlets. They’re all still Scarlets.

That’s why you have to insist they’re not a member of the crusade because you know they’re still a member of the Scarlets, which includes the Crusade, Brotherhood, Apostates, etc.

We also haven’t seen any official response specifically to the pamphlets, but I already linked where a developer outright stated that Anduin is not universally popular as it relates to the House of Nobles in Stormwind and how they were quick to promote Tyralyon to steward of Stormwind when he was originally just commander of the armed forces. Also, the Scarlets are all about killing Forsaken and retaking Lordaeron and that’s pretty popular in Stormwind.

The Stormwind nobles still know the Scarlet Crusade as enemies, especially through the Church of the Holy Light condemning them (confirmed by Metzen himself). Going from disliking Anduin to helping Scarlet Crusade supporters is a big leap in logic. Between that and the Scarlet Brotherhood having nothing they want or need, what makes you think the Stormwind nobles will work with them? Would you believe an anonymously given pamphlet with conspiracy theories?

Why do I think the nobles would support the Scarlets?

1. The nobles are not a fan of Anduin and stormwind’s been trying to take back Lordaeron for a while. They’ve never opposed the Scarlets. Only elements of the Church of Holy Light have.
2. The Scarlets are not a fan of Anduin and have been trying to take back Lordaeron for a while. And they’re starting to try and influence Stormwinf politics in Anduin’s absence.
3. AU Xe’ra hasn’t shown up and started convincing people elsewhere to commit the genocide and forced conversions like she did with Yrel and the Lightbound yet. Naturally, she’d be opposed by Anduin, which makes him a threat to. So they’d all make comfy bedfellows.

Why would you devote a single line to addressing Cursewords in the middle of a post directly replying to me?

I shared what I said to Cursewords because you accused me of the same thing they did.

I never accused you of claiming anything’d be the end of WoW until you brought it up… which apparently wasn’t directed at me. So why’d you bring up something you were going back and forth with Cursewords about to me when I never mentioned before?

You don’t call everyone your hate brigade, but whenever I and others you don’t consider members point out how you’re wrong, you can’t help but bring them up, as if they’re relevant to the discussion you and I are having. Why?

I bring up those specific people because they keep trying to gang up on me, they share your views and attack me the same ways.

But everyone who disagrees with you does so for the same reasons because those reasons are all consistently wrong. If we’re not being mean to you, there’s no reason for you to bring up the people who are when talking to us.

Power levels in Warcraft don’t matter when determining antagonists and we can go from fighting Old Gods and Dragon Aspects in one expansion to mostly fighting foot soldiers and wild beats in the next. AU Xe’ra’s doing plenty of genocide with just her army of Lightbound on Draenor. On Azeroth, she’ll have an army of Lightbound, Scarlet converts and likely a chunk of the Stormwind army behind her, along with whatever McGuffin/powerups she gets in the story. That’s enough to kill and forcibly convert a lot of people and more than enough reason to need to stop her.

Power levels do matter if they’re trying to make “Light Crusade” part of a “Cosmic Powers at war” story arc, especially if they’re trying to claim the Light is as bad as the Void. Name one race the Lightbound successfully genocide-d; Was it the Mag’har who made it to MU Azeroth? The Ogres who chose to join them? The Botani who were almost wiped out by the Mag’har but also made it to Azeroth? Do you have actual canon lore about AU Xe’ra’s plans on Azeroth, or just theories and headcanon?

No, power levels don’t matter, as the Legion was supposed to be the greatest threat the universe ever faced- to the point where it was the enemy of the Light, the Void, the Titans, and who all fought it on multiple fronts and couldn’t defeat it.

That the Lightbound didn’t finish completely eradicating races of Draenor down to the last person doesn’t make it something that should be allowed to continue. The fact that lives can still possibly be saved is all the more reason to stop them now.

Since there is no actual Light Crusade yet, there’s no published announcement about Xe’ra’s specific plans for Azeroth. But we can look at exactly what she’s already doing on Draenor to see what she’d be capable of should she arrive.

And it doesn’t mean we can’t also fight against Sargeras, the Jailer and the Old Gods.

I brought up Sargeras, the Jailer and the Old Gods to prove Xe’ra – both MU and AU versions - is neither as bad nor powerful as them.

Even if she’s not as bad, it doesn’t mean she’s good. And it doesn’t mean she doesn’t need to be stopped.

Anyone can see how I quote you in full and address all your arguments, and how you continue to avoid quoting or even directly responding to my posts. If you want to keep acting like you replied to my last post in the other thread-when you did not- I can also copy/paste/link that post so they can see that too.

Anyone can also see how you and them repeatedly cherry-picked me in your replies (before the latest one in your case). They can also read the rest of whatever thread you link, regardless of whatever parts you try and cherry-pick out of context.

So I guess I DO have to repeat it. Because in this thread, you stopped responding to me.

The quote you provided claiming Lightbound let Maghar keep their language and other elements of their culture is the same quote as the one I keep posting.

However, when we look at things, there’s no evidence that the Lightbound are letting the Mag’har keep their laguage, animal husbandry, fighting style or anything else about Mag’har culture, and lots of evidence showing they’re actually replacing elements of Mag’har culture with Draenei/Lightbound stuff.

Illidain was a leader of the Moonguard, the leader of the Illidari and a commander in the combined efforts to defeat the Legion. He’s an authority figure. He meets all your criteria for “the Man”, but now you’re adding the “more concerned with his own goals” criteria, even though his ultimate goals are even the same as Xe’ra’s, too: defeat the Legion.

And when I asked characters who’d qualify as “The Man” that have or would ever oppose Xe’ra and/or forces of the Light? You answered “Turalyon”: Xe’ra’s greates champion, who unquestioningly followed her orders in he past and currently leads the Lightforged army.

Anyone else?

And here…

Yeah, I don’t think Xe’ra’s brainwashing/controlling people in that she can’t simply dictate others’ actions on a personal level/puppet on a string sort of way. But she’s definitely manipulative, engages in coerced indoctrination and has great tools for doing it.

BUT, she can also grant visions to people, like she did to Turalyon and Alleria when Turalyon went through his Lightforging process. She can forge mental connections with people so she can watch them at all times and-when they do things she doesn’t like- pop into their mind and go, “I know what you’re doing/thinking. You’d better not.” She forges a similar mental bond with the player.

Then, when Alleria did disobey her and she was still mulling over her options, she looked into Turalyon’s heart/mind and read it before she actually bothered to explain what she was even going to do. Turalyon, fearing what Xe’ra might do, could only think to beg for mercy in the face of some unknown punishment for his wife, only to go about carrying out Xe’ra’s orders when it eventually came down.

Turalyon never “challenges” Xe’ra. He begs for mercy-even though he has no ide what the punishment is. Xe’ra looks into him delivers a punishment and he goes along with it.

Because she doesn’t control him directly like a puppet with direct control over his mind and body, but she absolutely does play mind games, hide information from him and manipulate him in a way that makes him loyal to her in a way that he probably wouldn’t be if he knew the full truth of what she’s doing.