"Lightforging = brainwashing" debunked

If the Lightforged Draenei
And the Void Elves are brainwashed by either cosmic force.

It’ll spell far more disastrious storytelling for blizzard in the future, seeing as both are playable.

I am inclined to agree that being at the mercy to the extend that the Lightforged Draenei and Void Elves are of each respective cosmetic force do risk causing extremenism and corruption. I don’t think there is much more brainwashing than there is in, say, fel or arcane magic - both also described as being fairly corruptive powers.

Someone explained it earlier - there is a whole lot of manipulation and coercion happening, but not brainwashing in the sense that these forces can just take control.

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While I admit I’ve spoken a lot about this new “Light bad side” story arc, that’s my entire point in this thread; Lightforging itself is not brainwashing.

P.S You raise a good point about the implications for the story if Lightforged Draenei and Void Elves are brainwashed (and I don’t consider Void Elves brainwashed), the problem is Blizzard often sweeps logical consequences under the rug in their lore.

Because lightforged could be brainwashed…void elfs would be aswell? Why that?

Either the Void would have made it impossible or she was planning on it.

You’re confusing brainwashing with mind control.

If Light brain washes then that means we wont need to kill yrel in the raid but save her instead.
I support that.

But kind if sad we wont be getting a true “The Emperor/Light Protects!” Light Marines in wow.

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:pancakes:

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The Imperial Light Navy. Greatest in the galaxy.

Now they have a good excuse to crash their ships. Cannons? Who needs them.

I actually agree with this.

If lightforging were itself brainwashing, then all lightforged PCs would be brainwashed. However, I’d be willing to best that lightforged PCs will continue to always be lightforged but won’t be brainwashed. It follows that lightforging is not in itself brainwashing.

However, you seem to also be entertaining a broader underlying idea: The Light does not use supernatural force to influence people’s minds in general, even through methods besides light forging.

And there I disagree. There’s both theoretical reason to think the Light might influence people’s minds and specific evidence in the history to make it plausible that the Light exercises significant supernatural influence on people’s minds.

On the theoretical end: The Light provides power to its wielders on the basis of the strength of their faith (regardless of whether that faith is factually well-placed, as the numerous fanatical, evil, yet powerful Light users prove). Since the power of the Light for a user is directly proportional to their faith, this provides a feedback loop: Believe more, get more power; more power supports more belief; more belief leads to yet more power. On the other hand, doubt weakens you, so you’re literally punished for questioning your ideology. This provides a natural way to make light-users singlemindedly faithful and unquestioning, since doubt is literally weakness. If a cunning manipulator could set themselves up at the cause believed in, they’d have the most pliable and easy to manipulate army they could want.

Just in terms of in-game examples, there are loads of fanatical antiheroic or villainous light users, from the Scarlet Crusade, to the AU Xe’ra’s forces, to the decadence of Warcraft III era paladins in Lordaeron, etc. The consistency with which we see fanatical devotion to a misguided cause suggests a pattern that fits what I suggested above.

So nah, it’s totally plausible that the Light could become a tool of exploitation and manipulation. And if it is a tool of exploitation, then maybe it’s like that by mistake or on accident – or maybe it’s part of a design.

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Because the Void has FAR more precedent in lore for mind manipulation than the Light (not to mention Alleria herself has said she often hears the Void Lords whispering to her).

But maybe the void elves have another pov toward the void as the lf have toward the light.

They EXPECT this and try to defend themselve.

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I did debunk the claim that Lightforging is brainwashing. Turalyon can’t have tried to kill Illidan because he was brainwashed by Lightforging when none of the Lightforged Draenei did likewise when Illidan jobbed Xe’ra. Plus Xe’ra wanted Alleria to take up the Light, if Xe’ra was such a fanatical control freak and Lightforging can mind-control someone, she would’ve done it… but she didn’t. The fact that Void-state Naaru can be returned to a Light state indicates that the Void isn’t an insurmountable barrier for being imbued with the Light.

So you have to admit either Xe’ra wasn’t a fanatical control freak or Lightforging can’t do what you claim; can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Just because “Lightforging = brainwashing” is the bandwagon you’re riding doesn’t mean it’s a good story. Michael Bay’s Transformers movies have made more money than Francis Ford Coppola’s Godfather trilogy, but that doesn’t make Bay’s films better.

Go play the demon hunter you want to be.

Again. Brainwashing isn’t mind control mind control.

Unless she didn’t get around to it.

Debatable.

I have to laugh at the idea that the Mag’har that got lightbound just randomly went from violently fighting to keep themselves free from the light’s influence to suddenly being loyal minions of Xe’ra and co for “reasons”.

It’s insane how far a lot of blueside posters will go to twist reality to pretend that their side never does anything wrong.

To be precise, this is even the danger of light. The void is very obvious that the goals of the void do not coincide with yours, you have to work against the will of the void if you want to effectively use its power.

The light could be much more manipulative, more like a love drug, it makes you want what it wants.

What i don’t understand is through out ALL of classic / bc / wotlk / mists / cata

the light was always in a sense good , depending on race / faction they had there own ‘interpretation’ of good and could still use the light

in comes legion / current wow writers

LeT uS mAkE tHe lIgHt sEmI eViL cAuSe rEaSoNs

if you complete the Mag’har Orcs quest chain you see how the draenei purge old man Grommash and those who didnt join the “light” kinda like the Scarlet Crusade

not the lights fault , just the way people use it

since the beginning of wow the light represented “hope”

after illidan 1 shot the prime naru

now they make it look like people are “blind” to follow the light

and the naru are indoctrinating their followers using mind control … i mean come on blizz …

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This is the same thing. The users are just some Naaru in this instance.

It actually makes sense, given the shift towards cosmological scale threats.

The light isn’t evil, and it’s interests and the interests of that of most life overlap in many places, but it’s goals are like the goals of any of the other cosmological forces. IE: to make itself supreme. It’s still fundimentally an inhuman (or intauren, for us civilized folk) force, with it’s own goals separate of that of your average living being.

The light can still be channeled for good, and Light entities can still do good things (sometimes that might be done less out of raw goodness, but out of wanting to fight the void and fel). But the light does still inspire fanaticism, and beings of pure light aren’t gonna stop crusading, ever. If there’s no void or fel based threats around, you better hope you’re not next up on the “impure” ladder.

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It’s because some of the current crop of writers are/have become edgelords. Just look at how much the swept the Iron Horde under the rug to villain bat Yrel, the naaru and the other AU Draenei.

All Illidan was missing in the cinematic when he killed Xe’ra was a katana, a fedora, a black overcoat and the line “nothing personal, kid” (seriously, “I am my scars!”, “Your faith has blinded you. There can be no chosen one…” - actual cinematic quotes)

I strongly suspect Xe’ra became a stand-in for a teacher/a police officer/a priest/a “insert authority figure of choice here” the writer personally disliked.

I agree with everything you said except the mind control part (or if there is mind-control, it’s different from Lightforging), and given the Mag’har scenario in BfA, I find it delightfully ironic that your profile avatar is a Mag’har shaman :slight_smile:

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ohhhh , well the reason i suggested mind control was during the illidan cutscene

when he eye beamed an ancient deity in legion

they zoom in to Turalyons eyes and a certain light/glow started to fade

and started to wake up in a sense , insinuating he wasn’t acting on his own or he was on a drug /feeling good but it went away maybe ?

(could be wrong though) :stuck_out_tongue:

Xe’ra was always preachy and annoying. Claiming false moral posturing.