If you want #NoChanges means you want Retail. If you want #SomeChanges means you want Classic to succeed

[Deunan-atiesh]

If nothing changes, we get retail.

If we are accepting, yet cautious, of potential new additions that path could change.

All WoW was once retail. You’re either fighting a forgone conclusion or raging against a potential branch away from retail.

#nochanges was never real, ever. Its a concept that doesn’t exist.

#somechanges is not unilaterally evil and is the reality of Wrath Classic currently.

@Zaalg-ashkandi

Mythic dungeons in Wrath.

H+ aren’t mythic dungeons. the only similarity is surface level and is still a reach. Claiming they are the same is entirely incorrect and shows a lack of understanding of the mythic dungeon system as a whole.

I wont stop you from being mad just to be mad, but at least be aware of the no-win situation you have set up here for yourself and for blizzard.

[Zaalg-ashkandi]

@Deunan-atiesh

If nothing changes, we get retail.

No, you get the game as it was. Which, again, was the point of Classic.

And like I said with #somechanges you get this Mythic dungeon crap, because all the Classic Team is capable of is borrowing from Retail and giving slightly changed versions of their systems.

[Deunan-atiesh]

@Zaalg-ashkandi

No, you get the game as it was. Which, again, was the point of Classic.

Which is still a direct path to retail. If nothing changes, nothing changes. We get retail. which you claim to not want to happen.

@Zaalg-ashkandi

And like I said with #somechanges you get this Mythic dungeon crap,

They aren’t mythic dungeons. Educate yourself on systems.

Honestly you just want to be mad at the game, you set yourself up to be able to shout about anything that happens.

RDF being removed? you supported and shouted down others then switched to wanting it included. Delmecius(sp) has the receipts.

Now any change is bad, because retail. However no changes also leads directly to retail design.
Pick a lane.

[Zaalg-ashkandi]

@Deunan-atiesh

@Zaalg-ashkandi

No, you get the game as it was. Which, again, was the point of Classic.

Which is still a direct path to retail. If nothing changes, nothing changes. We get retail. which you claim to not want to happen.

Nah, you get the game as it was. Wrath Classic should emulate Wrath. So and and so forth.

Vanilla Classic was the version Blizz messed with the least, and it was the most popular. The more changes the Classic team has made, the less people play the game. Seems people want to play a Classic server to experience the game as it was, not a bunch of Retail type systems shoved into the old game. Wrath Classic is just a game for whales and bots. So what have those changes accomplished? Buy your gold and buy your gear with GDKPs. Really captures the original Wrath experience!

[Invincìble-westfall]

@Deunan-atiesh

They aren’t mythic dungeons. Educate yourself on systems.

He’s going to ignore anything that doesn’t fit in his argument. They all like to do that.

[Delimicus-benediction]

@Deunan-atiesh

Honestly you just want to be mad at the game, you set yourself up to be able to shout about anything that happens.

Zaalg has been trolling the forums for years, he doesn’t even play the game. He used to post about how much he disliked WoTLK and RDF and now he lies and pretends he always enjoyed WoTLK and RDF:

@Zaalg-mankrik

You can go back to the day this forum opened when I was posting on Mogar.

@Mogar-stormrage

Personally, no. I’m not a huge fan of TBC, and I like Wrath even less. But plenty of people want them, so good luck.

@Zaalg-mankrik

I loved the dungeons. The last year of Wrath after dungeon finder was added was the most fun I ever had in WoW, except perhaps Vanilla.

Here he is saying subs went up after RDF was added, and then in another post he implies that convenience systems like RDF led to subs deadlining and then plummeting:

@Zaalg-ashkandi

Subs went up after RDF was added, no matter how many times people try to lie and say the opposite.

@Zaalg-mankrik

People seem to forget that as these convenience systems were added, the sub numbers deadlined, growth stopped, and then plummeted.

Here he is talking favorably about the RDF polls:

@Zaalg-ashkandi

How about the polls with tens of thousands of votes that are all 70%+ pro-lfd too? Oh, those don’t count because they’re not official.

Only a troll would say the vast majority of players don’t want RDF.

Here he is saying the opposite:

Blizzard daily reminder that the VAST majority of players want LFD in WoTLK

LOL. These polls mean nothing. Look who you’re asking. It’s like going to a gun show and asking those people about harsher gun regulation. The results are going to be skewed.

Here he is saying RDF is terrible:

@Zaalg-mankrik

Connected realms? Are you referring to the cross-realm dungeon finder? Because that’s all that Wrath added in that regard. And there were cross-realm bgs since Vanilla.

I think both those additions were terrible, btw.

@Zaalg-mankrik

Originally the game kind of forced you to be social. You had to group up. You had to make friends. And Blizzard removed all that over the years. Starting really with the Dungeon Finder in Wrath.

and now he’s RDF’s biggest fan. Blizzard decided to listen to players like him and when he got what he wanted (RDF removed) he immediately took the opposite position. Likely the most successful troll to ever grace these fine forums.

[Zaalg-ashkandi]

@Invincìble-westfall

He’s going to ignore anything that doesn’t fit in his argument. They all like to do that.

Howso? My argument is very simple: Classic exists to experience the game as it was. That’s…straight out of Blizzard’s mouth. Now, obviously they’ve since abandoned that after Vanilla Classic. But that was the original purpose.

Fifteen years from now if they get to Shadowlands Classic, it should be a faithful recreation of Shadowlands as it was back then. Who knows what Retail will look like at that point. But the worst thing they can do is take Retail systems 15 years from now and shove them into Shadowlands Classic. That defeats the purpose. Just like taking a Mythic Lite and shoving it into Wrath Classic defeats the purpose.

You guys act like Retail is some finish line. Like Classic is progressing, but Retail isn’t. It’s a game constantly changing and evolving and getting new expansions. Classic will never catch Retail.

[Deunan-atiesh]

@Zaalg-ashkandi

Vanilla Classic was the version Blizz messed with the least

Same faction BG’s were a huge change. Probably on par with adding H+ dungeons.

@Zaalg-ashkandi

Nah, you get the game as it was.

and wrath as it was leads to more of these retail design choices you rage against. I don’t see how this natural progression escapes you.

@Zaalg-ashkandi

The more changes the Classic team has made, the less people play the game.

I believe that you believe this. If you want to show metrics or sourced data please do. I won’t hold my breath though.

@Zaalg-ashkandi

Wrath Classic is just a game for whales and bots. So what have those changes accomplished? Buy your gold and buy your gear with GDKPs. Really captures the original Wrath experience!

And now we get into irrelevant opinions again. Kind of just solidifies my point that you don’t actually care about anything but being able to be upset online. Sounds exhausting.

Be better and have a nice day.

@Delimicus-benediction

Zaalg has been trolling the forums for years

Thank you for popping in. Sorry if I butchered the spelling of your name.

@Delimicus-benediction

Likely the most successful troll to ever grace these fine forums.

Weird way to spell “Bloomsday”

[Napolitus-defias-pillager]

They put in the WoW Token.

It’s already full retail.

[Zaalg-ashkandi]

Same faction bgs weren’t in Vanilla Classic.

As far as the rest of your post, the fact remains the same: Classic should strive to recapture the game as it was during a specific time. The changes Blizz have created a much more Retail experience than Wrath one.

[Veliveanne-pagle]

@Flamelink-zuljin

Wrath Dungeons would be dead content since week 2 of Wrath.

Totally correct

[Deunan-atiesh]

@Zaalg-ashkandi

Classic should strive to recapture the game as it was during a specific time.

to most people it does. Dungeons are being run more than they were prior to RDF in original WoW. The content is kept alive. Which increases player engagement which keeps the game from dying.

Once again, stagnation is bad.

@Zaalg-ashkandi

The changes Blizz have created a much more Retail experience than Wrath one.

Define retail.

[Napolitus-defias-pillager]

@Deunan-atiesh

Define retail.

Pay 2 win. Esports wannabe. Gameified the soul out of it. Linear zone progression. Raid logging simulator. Optimized for “payer engagement”. Vindictus hub game.

[Deunan-atiesh]

Thank you for your answer but my question was directed elsewhere.

The reason I ask is because the answers will differ from person to person. I am pointing out that claiming “retail design” essentially means nothing.

@Napolitus-defias-pillager

Esports wannabe

I’d change wannabe to washed up. They did have successful arena Esports during OG wrath and for a few years past as well. It’s just fallen off.

@Napolitus-defias-pillager

Pay 2 win

By players maybe, but not by any game design choice. All purchases besides the game and the sub are optional and not tied to player power.

[Napolitus-defias-pillager]

No it doesn’t. Retail design is effectively turning a charming persistent open world with hidden secrets that you inhabit and explore and unique treasures to collect into an on rails linear level optimized gear treadmill where only the newest expansion zones are briefly relevant until LFD/LFR is all that remains.

[Noxranna-bloodsail-buccaneers]

I can’t recall the last time I’ve seen any anti-retail person point to any actual specific things to explain why they hate retail. It’s always extremely vague dismissals like “it’s retail therefor it’s bad”

[Napolitus-defias-pillager]

There’s only so much time in a day, we’re not going to waste it explaining the obvious, and the forum probably doesn’t support 30 page essays.

[Noxranna-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Napolitus-defias-pillager

we’re not going to waste it explaining the obvious

See what I mean? Just vague dismissals, every time

[Jeynar-mannoroth]

@Napolitus-defias-pillager

There’s only so much time in a day, we’re not going to waste it explaining the obvious,

Good lord lad, this was the most obvious “I don’t actually know why, but now I’m digging my head in the sand and screeching” done on these forums, ever.

[Deunan-atiesh]

I think you haven’t seriously looked at retail recently if that is what you think it is. I’m not the biggest fan of DF but it has exactly those things you are claiming it doesn’t. The on rails aspect has even been watered down since it was implemented into the game.