Using Eye Beam on CD, but also ensuring that you waste as little of its massive fury generation as possible, and also ensuring you time it so you can fit 2 (or at very high haste levels, 3) Blade Dance casts within the Demonic window.
In what situations do DHs run Blind Fury over Demonic Appetite? I’m genuinely asking, I was under the impression Demonic Appetite is what we ran for most end-game content.
Sucks, because I really loved having both in Legion.
All situations if using Demonic build. Which most are atm. It allows Eyebeam to generate fury which is something we use often. Demon’s Bite along with Immolation Aura, and the chance for fury rebate with Chaos strikes provides more than enough fury generation. Making the management of fury cap and not going over it a bigger priority than generating fury. And increasing Eyebeam duration by 50% is just plain ol yummy.
Then why is it never used in raiding? Both Heroic and Mythic raiding use Demonic Appetite almost exclusively looking at logs.
There’s also a new build on the rise that simply uses the first build, but subbing out blind fury for demonic appetite. This build REQUIRES at least one Eyes of Rage azerite trait. This build focuses on simply reducing the cooldown of eye beam with lesser soul fragments to get more demonic time.
Quote from Averax in another thread. Guess there’s a new sheriff in town. Maybe Xaedys and Ravenborn can chime in and give more insight.
Demonic Appetite has been the go to build since the beginning of this tier for both M+ and Mythic raiding. It has the best possible single target damage and AoE damage while giving the best survivability as well. You do need the Eyes of Rage trait, though.
Blind Fury gives more AoE burst, but the amount of cd reduction on Eye Beam you get with Demonic Appetite ends up being better in the long run.
That being said, Demon Blades is not that far behind to make it obsolete, but if you are min-maxing, definitely go for Demonic Appetite.
Thanks a lot! This is what I assumed.
I really hope Blizzard lets us have Blind Fury and Demonic Appetite in Shadowlands like we did in Legion. Antorus Demonic just felt whole.
…That was my entire point? No class has a difficult baseline rotation, and while certain ones are higher on the complexity scale to optimize, most are around the same place as Havoc. You’re absolutely delusional if you think Havoc is somehow uniquely easy to optimize. That, or you’ve never actually played content of any difficulty as Havoc (or ever played Havoc at all, for that matter), and are simply assuming based on damage meters.
See above, that was my point. Havoc has similar levels of complexity, both baseline and for optimization, as other classes. I have every class in the game at 120, and have raided at normal or higher on better than half of them (and mythic on 3 of them). Havoc isn’t uniquely simplistic.
M+ says “hi”. Actually, so does Opulence, which basically required Fel Barrage at the Mythic level due to how well it lined up with the add spawns and how insanely powerful it was for demolishing them.
Edit: apparently Azshara also demands it: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/23#class=DemonHunter&spec=Havoc&combatantinfo=Talents&tier=3&boss=2299
DA is a meme spec. Blind Fury is still taken by more DHs than Demonic Appetite: https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-stats/talents/demonhunter/havoc (and note, that chart is limited to DHs that have killed at least one boss in Mythic Palace)
Edit: warcraftlogs paints a bit different picture, though, so perhaps wargraphs is a bit off. Only roughly 14% of mythic Havoc parses used Blind Fury: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/23#class=DemonHunter&spec=Havoc&combatantinfo=Talents&tier=1.
Do note that this is one of those situations where the logged DPS differential is very likely misleading. Blizz has pointed this out in the past with regards to spec differentials, but it applies to talents as well. When one talent (or spec) is well known as being “the best”, the likelihood of that talent being selected goes up as a player’s skill and progression go up. As a result, the average skill level of players taking the top talent is actually higher than the average skill of players taking the others, because the highest skill players only take the “best one”. Net result: the logged damage differential is usually substantially larger than the simulated one, and larger than the logged differential would be if no information was known about their relative strengths (ie. if average skill was equal between them).
DA currently sims higher in pretty much every scenario and is also the build that has the most survivability for M+ and Mythic Raiding. This is the best build for everything PvE, but Demon Blades is not that far behind in pure ST.
Blind Fury is used for burst AoE on lower keys, but doesn’t see much play in Raids. The difference is that for DA, you need a specific trait to make it work, and also 3 Furious Gaze traits for pretty much every PvE build.
Which is a real shame, tbh. I had enough of positional resource mechanics in Antorus. I’ve never really been a fan of the DA system, because it makes forced movement (either actual knockbacks, or have-to-move-out-of-crap-now mechanics) a much more significant DPS loss, as you sudden eat a bunch of soul fragments before you’re prepared for them.
I honestly actually like it. I’m so used to it by now that I don’t really mind even the forced movement, mechanics and whatnot. I also like the other two, so I don’t really mind which one I’m playing with. I really wish for us to not lose the DA playstyle in Shadowlands, so it would be pretty good if they baked the Eyes of Rage trait into DA or give it to us baseline (like we used to have in Legion).
It’s our flaming green eye sockets. Both intimidating and seductive.
Old post, late reply but playing a Demon Hunter is like how a brainless chimpanzee can do top dps with one by spamming eyebeams and chaos strikes. No challenge. Demon Hunters are more like Derp Hunters. Probably why in lore they are blind, since all they can do is tunnel vision do high dps and die to simple boss mechanics.
Always impressive to what lengths people go to hate on the class. Couldn’t you have posted on any hate thread in GD, or even this class forum instead of necro-ing a 5 month old thread?
I find it rather amusing how people go to such a stupid extent to flame another class. It honestly impresses me how little you must have going on in your life to necro a 5 month old thread so that people know how angry you are.
speaking of being brain dead… it took him all 5 months to come up with that great deduction.
Demon hunters have a pretty large population. So odds are people have a lot more recent experiences involving demon hunters (my personal anecdote is whenever I start keys DH is usually my most seen dps in queue). Nobody is thinking about how busted rogues were to play vs in cata, legion frost dk in pvp, How trash the balance has been in 6.x or 7.x patch. They think about more recent experiences.
Balance, both pvp/pve. They’re perceived as a low skill high viability class and it can upset players to feel like they’re putting in more effort and still being beaten by someone who put in less effort. (I personally think DH is pretty low skill floor compared to many other classes, also more forgiving because they’re extremely durable with 100% dodge being built into their damage rotation, leech, and darkness/blur+ a talentable immune) Just cuz I think their skill floor is low doesn’t mean i don’t think good demon hunters are skilled players. Any skilled player on any class will easily show you the difference between a good and bad player. Also, they’re an absolute abomination in pvp. Unpeelable, unkiteable, self sustaining class with top tier mobility and good damage. Only class with degenerate mana break gameplay, Rain from Above is also a degenerate move with way too much damage for what it gives you. Blade dance is an incredibly infuriating move to play against considering it’s in their basic rotation.
Honestly… They’re kind of tacky… or well, their sound effects/playerbase make them come across as tacky. They have like 3 generic scream voices that sound lame to me. If i had a nickel for every “illidari” or “illidan” pun in a name, I’d actually be rich.
They’re competing in the “mobile leather” category which already is filled by rogue/monk, so players of both classes can feel like they’re being stiffed in their fantasy for the new kid on the block.
Old demo warlock players feel like their spec was kneecapped for the sake of DH fantasy.
I don’t think they deserve as much hate as they get but I understand why players can feel so frustrated with them. I think the majority of my DH distaste comes from PVP where I feel like I have very little agency in stopping the DH from just running me down and mana breaking me like a dog. (UH DK is the only other dps spec that makes me just as frustrated)
I just now realized this thread was necro’d but I put too much effort into this post so ima post anyways
It’s a combination of being extremely accessible (starting at 98, so we’re everywhere), being simple to play, and being well rounded. There’s no area where we’re really at the top, but we’re far from the bottom.
People don’t like a class that can enter any form of content and perform well enough in it. It’s gotta be useless at something because having classes be well rounded is bad game design according to people, i guess.
Rather than asking that their own classes be made well rounded again, as they once were in MoP/WoD, because why bring things back up when we can drag things down further into the dirt.
5 MONTHS LATER…
I saw the rez and chuckled. I didn’t bother replying because it was a question posed to fellow Demon Hunters.
And this.
You know the leech and the talentable immune are mutually exclusive, right? Basically no one takes Netherwalk, especially since it’s only a damage immunity, not a full immunity like Iceblock and Divine Protection. We can still be CC’d and receive debuffs during it, and while we can move around during it, we can’t attack at all (akin to ye olde Divine Protection).
I’ll grant you that, though as a class we’re behind druids and paladins at last count, and were behind hunters and priests up until about November or December 2019. What contributes to that perception is that:
Even if we had a perfectly mid-range class representation, those two would likely combine to guarantee that Havoc is one of the most played in the game. This is somewhat akin to the fact that something like 95% of hunters you see are BM.
Add to that that we’re complete monsters in solo content (though to be honest, I don’t really see that as a bad thing. I hate soloing on a lot of my other toons (ex my shaman) simply because of how ridiculously flimsy they are), and that our damage is particularly well-oriented towards the content where the LFG tool is most used and has the most rapid cycling (M+), and ya, you’re going to see a lot of DHs queuing for your mythic run. It’s a combination of factors.
This may surprise you, but most DHs agree with you here. One of the absolute most common and most vehement asks amonst the DH community is for increased baseline complexity. Literally, our baseline rotation in BfA is three buttons, one of which is a fixed 30s CD with essentially zero pre-requisites for cast (Eye Beam is in the baseline rotation even without Demonic in BfA). The rotation has zero interaction, we literally just use Eye Beam on CD, Chaos Strike if we have enough fury, and Demon’s Bite if we don’t. There isn’t even really any RNG in it, since both sources of “RNG” (Demon Bite’s variable generation and Chaos Strike’s random refund) just contribute to fury economy and thus don’t change the above decision, just how often it weighs towards Chaos Strike. It’s a freakin’ joke.
SL is adding one additional 30s CD to that rotation, Immo Aura, but stripping even the fury generation from it, so it’s literally just a button you slap every 30s for damage and forget exists.
Let me make this clear, you could throw Demon’s Bite on button 1, Chaos Strike on button 2, Eye Beam on button 3, and in SL, Immo Aura on button 4, and then make a macro that just sequentially hits 4, 3, 2, 1 over and over again every 10ms or so, and do damn near max DPS with the base rotation.
I’m not sure I can think of any other class in the game for which that is true.
But DHs and others have been begging for increased complexity to the baseline rotation for ages now. Exhibit 1 (and 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8, and that’s just within the last ~month). Blizzard, though, for some reason seems to believe a faceroll rotation is appropriate for this class. None of us are sure why, nor do we want it.
This is the part that I think is most relevant, and one reason I’ve been campaigning hard to have First Blood removed, rather than made baseline, and have Blade Dance’s place in the single target rotation filled by some other ability (like Felblade).
Blade Dance’s dodge on its own isn’t a problem; in a world without First Blood using it would require both a DPS loss and careful timing. First Blood on its own is mostly not a problem either (a fair chunk of DPS classes now have talents, like Dance of Chi’ji, that integrate their AoE ability into their single-target rotation). The problem comes when you have a dodge as part of the standard rotation.
One other thing that could help immensely instead is simply to make the dodge window scale with haste as well. Currently, it’s a 1.0s dodge window fixed, to my knowledge, but extreme amounts of haste can reduce the cooldown of Blade Dance into the 4-5s range (though Furious Gaze, the reason for that extreme amount of haste, is gonzo in SL already), pushing that dodge to closer to 20-25% uptime, which is overpowered for something so passive and naturally part of the rotation.
Blade Dance has a 9s CD baseline, so if the dodge window was reduced at the same rate as the cooldown, the window would always be at 1/9th, or ~11%, of the rotation. To be clear, I would prefer to see First Blood removed entirely and the dodge components lefts as-is (1.0s fixed is fine, imo, on an ability that has to be intentionally cast and isn’t part of the natural rotation), but scaling the window with haste is probably a smaller and easier change, since Blizzard appears to be in the mood of “as little effort as possible” with SL class changes.
To be fair, before DHs, there was an absolute plague of Legolas hunter names. Probably still are, tbh. Immature peeps gunna be immature, you really can’t stop them.
Not sure on the tacky sound effects, though, I’ve not played with game sounds turned on in literally a decade or so.
Necro’d thread or not, your post has a lot of thought and effort behind it, isn’t just mindless DH hatred and “curb-stomp 'em to oblivion”, and contributes to the conversation. It is more than granted a stay from the normal “let necro’d threads die” rule.
necro thread is necro to anyone bothering to read any of this garbage i’ll sum it up for you in tldr fashion
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EZ SPEC LOW SKILL LEVEL ALL CLASSES MUST BE HARD TO PLAY LIKE MINE
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someone running their mouth about the class/spec that has no idea how either works
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That’s the tl:dr of this thread.
