that makes absolutely no sense, Illidan and the DH from WC3 were fragile glass canon heroes. Their “tankiness” is an agility trait, stemming solely from “Evasion”
Yawn, refer to the class forums of the first two expansions when they introduced DK and Monk. Next slide.
because its new
its strong
its simple to grasp
but dont fool urself… the other classes r simple too…
these dumb people act like playing a mage is some super complicated thing lmfao. i think those people r stupid
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Every class in the game is absolutely easy to pick up. Demon Hunter in particular is, without a shred of a doubt, the easiest by a very large margin. Combine that with the influx of gear that happens later in patches and the fact that the majority of players are running content they already outgear force Demon Hunters to shine in lights they otherwise don’t at higher levels of difficult content.
Take for example someone’s weekly 10-15 M+. Some random DH in heroic gear with rank 3 essences, cloak, right corruption pieces will delete many packs by themselves within an Eye Beam before many other classes will get a 2 - 3 GCDs off.
Same story won’t be written for a 20 and up key…which is why the good players aren’t really complaining about DH. At least, not about it’s damage. It’s mostly about it’s utility that’s arguably, and within good reason, too good.
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That’s the weird part, we lost none of our utility. We lost some of our survivability, which I guess you could consider as a form of “utility”, but both Fury and rogues also took a hit in that area, and everyone else was already either fine or absolutely junk at self-survivability (though they did at least buff a couple of the really low ones, like Enhancement). We kept Chaos Brand, we kept Chaos Nova, we kept both Disrupt and Consume Magic, we kept Imprison, we kept all of it.
Like, it’s actually a bit worrying.
What’s sad is they’re trying to throw even more at you. “Just in case all that other stuff wasn’t enough, here’s an AoE mortal strike effect and an AoE inverse Lust debuff!” It is disgraceful how obscenely favored Havoc is right now by the devs.
The spec is literally just an insert of Star Wars: The Force Unleashed 2, but god damn do the devs love that game from the looks of things.
And honestly, I wouldn’t even care about all of that if Havoc DHs weren’t also livelords. It’s so ridiculous entering a BG and seeing every Havoc DH on the map go full mongoloid at the start of the first battle. They just dive right into the middle of the opposing team without a care in the world. They KNOW they’re not going to die because they have such an absurd amount of durability that is fed by their absurd burst damage that has far too much uptime.
A spec with that much mobility should be held accountable for their positioning. They can dart in and out of combat at will. There is absolutely no way to justify how much durability this spec has.
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To be fair, most of our burst right now comes from corruption + Furious Gaze, which is going away in SL, and Demonic is taking a 25% nerf to boot. Our survivability has also been pretty seriously dialed back in SL. Blur is now only 20% DR instead of 35%, Netherwalk (do people take that in PvP? I doubt it, but maybe) was nerfed from 120s CD to 180s, and our leech took a serious kneecap as well. Baseline, we have zilch for leech, and with Soul Rending, we have 50% less out of meta and 25% less in meta compared to BfA.
So ya, those are already being addressed.
That said, I do boggle rather strongly at the new PvP talents. I don’t understand at all why we needed Mortal Strike. We already have considerable healing pressure from our mana drains. The “AoE inverse lust” is Sinful Brand, however, one of our covenant spells. The AoE portion only occurs when we use Meta (4m CD, or 2m with Demonic Origins), and the entire ability needs to be considered in context with other covenant abilities.
Rogues, for example, can lay out a permanent DoT, or steal 15% of incoming healing on their target (which, by its wording, would seem to stack with Wound Poison), or a bonus vanish. Warlocks get an AoE drain life. Priests can straight up turn off the ability of a target to heal or damage for 5s, on only a 45s CD. Mage’s Mirrors is a tongues + snare that on the third cast (and it lasts for 20s otherwise) nukes you and also roots and silences you. Hunters get free Kill Shot casts on a 30s CD, or 30% bonus crit and completely ignoring LOS for 10s on only a 60s CD. Druids get to spam 16 abilities, favoring their current spec, over 4 seconds, which could be an incredible amount of burst damage. DKs can spawn an extra limb that cast Death Grip every 2 seconds for 12 seconds.
Like, there are a lot of covenant abilities that look like they are going to be hilariously overpowered in PvP. I’m honestly not sure what Blizzard’s gameplan there is (or if they even have one). Like, the balance issues in PvE are not insignificant, but PvP is just going to be a dumpsterfire unless they just straight up block covenant abilities from functioning there.
lol if you think the DH was a glass canon hero, you weren’t very good at Warcraft 3.
Demon Hunter was one of the tankiest heroes in the game. The only one definitively better than them was the Pandaren Brewmaster because of its massive HP pool and semi-evasion.
Crypt Lord could get on their level with full ranks in Spiked Carapace and Locust Swarm, but even then they’d just be on the Demon Hunter’s level, DH was tanky from level 1. Beyond that the Death Knight could self-heal by eating their own units, and the Paladin had Divine Shield which made them unattackable so it’s kind of a question as to if they actually qualify as tanky or not since they couldn’t absorb damage for their army.
Demon Hunters in WoW most definitely have a tank spec because that was the role which they were used for in Warcraft 3. Aside from dealing good damage and being a good hero killer with Mana Burn, they were the tank that the fragile ranged-heavy Night Elf army needed. They were often paired with a Pandaren Brewmaster second hero for similar reasons.
DH tankiness stems solely from Evasion, an agility archetypal trait.
Having only one DPS option isn’t a DH monopoly. Shadow priest, ww monks, and Ret paladins wish that logic worked.
Edit: just realized what a necro this was. Apologies.
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See my comment above. DH’s aren’t the only class with one DPS spec.
Edit: just realized what a necro this was. Apologies.
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I mean, in theory that’s the way it should work. Blizzard hasn’t put really one iota of effort into balance in BfA, but in general over the last few expansions, the DPS spec of a class with only one has been more reliably good than any random spec from a pure DPS class.
Yeah the fact they had a 10/20/30% chance to negate damage was part of it. As was Metamorphosis, which increased their HP and regeneration when active. But also the Demon Hunter was just fairly tanky out of the gate, with above-average HP and extremely high armor rating.
My point is that calling them a glass cannon is not correct at all, they’re one of the tankiest in the game.
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You mean the blade dance dodge? Ya, that can be problematic as well, but a lot of it is fueled by Furious Gaze giving us hilariously high haste levels. Blade Dance’s dodge really should have an internal CD (ie. it can only cause you to dodge something once every X seconds), or the dodge interval should scale down at the same rate that the cooldown does, so the uptime remains the same regardless of haste. At extreme gear levels, Blade Dance can be up 20-25% of the time, which is a bit silly for a 100% dodge that’s part of the normal DPS rotation.
Well to me they were a glass cannon besides physical attacks thanks to evasion, and Metamorphosis was only after lvl 6 and was a big cooldown.
A big transformation Ultimate i didn’t consider when describing their base form.
I’m not counting Meta, either. I’m just saying that it’s there and it also gave them a boost.
Sorry but it wasn’t a glass cannon hero, no matter how you look at it. It was on par with the other premiere hero tanks in the game, and in a lot of ways outclassed them. The only one definitively better was the Brewmaster.
The Warden was a glass cannon melee hero. She was fragile, high damage and relied on mobility and blink to keep her safe. Demon Hunter didn’t need it because it could just brawl without fear.
Yeah that makes sense, but also all agility heroes had massive armor value thanks to how the primary stat works, i don’t really consider that mechanic into the hero fantasy.
When i look at a WC3 DH Hero, I don’t think “Wow he has amazing agility and therefore he’s tanky” I think yeah he must be like a ninja and dodge everything.
Worth noting, Illidan in HotS follows a similar pattern. He’s incredibly durable in meta form, and also incredibly bursty, and has remarkably sticking power.
Illidan in HotS needs babysitters in a team fight, his only gimmick is that he has insane leech and can farm solo. He’s not a tank but he does have damage mitigation cooldowns that make him a little tankier.
Illidan is an archetypal carry hero that relies on his allies for support.
If you Meta into a teamfight without backup you will be blown up. If you hunt down stragglers with The Hunt you can force fights on your terms.
He is not nearly as tanky or durable as a Bruiser or outright Warrior hero.
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And to be fair, that’s more or less how Havoc played at the start of BfA, from what I understand of it. The issue is the additional systems layered on top. Furious Gaze in particular is quite a bit stronger than it probably should have been, especially being stackable. The combination of First Blood pushing Blade Dance into the single target rotation, and Furious Gaze giving it as low as a 3.5-4.5s CD in meta (and thus a ~25% uptime on the dodge) really went too far.
It’s one of the reasons I’ve largely shifted to not wanting to see First Blood made baseline, or even continuing to exist. We need something else to fill that hole in the HDH rotation, something that doesn’t include a dodge frame. Blade Dance can go back to being a skillful juke rather than a “I simple ignore a quarter of your attacks without trying” ability.