Looking at the Shadowland changes so far and i’m a bit worried. I know it is very very early Alpha and somethings WILL change, but one thing in particular worries me alot, Demonic.
Not only is it getting a nerf, but it’s STILL A TALENT. Why?!?
Demonic is such a core part of how Havoc plays now, and has been for the entire BfA expansion. And pretty much nobody disliked that. It’s fantastic from both a fantasy and gameplay perspective.
Fantasy: Turning into a big awesome demon more often than once every 4 minutes is really cool and really fun.
Gameplay: Trying to maximize your demonic windows so that you get the max amount of damage (or healing) adds the perfect amount of engagement that Havoc’s otherwise very very simple rotation NEEDS, especially when not using the Blind Fury talent and actually needing to prepare for the window a bit. Havoc doesn’t need to be super complex or anything like that, i like that it’s relatively simple, but having something to manage and play around is important for every spec.
I just don’t understand WHY boring talents like Nemesis and Cycle of Hatred remain, yet something so core to the spec at this point stays a talent. PLUS IT’S GETTING NERFED!
I think they should just make Demonic a baseline passive for Havoc. Replace the talent with something else or maybe keep the nerf and have the talent extend the window, idk.
Actually, tbh, I’m much more concerned that they decided Immo Aura (without even the fury generation!) was the talent that needed to go baseline, rather than the absolutely dominant and much-beloved First Blood.
That said, I agree that Demonic is incredibly iconic. It should have been a baseline mechanic from day one. Demon hunters as a concept are all about controlling this demon within that’s constantly trying to burst out, so regularly tapping that and transforming into a demon, but only for short bouts to keep it under control, is incredibly thematic (and also visually stunning). It’s actually rather sad that Blizzard apparently can’t see that.
Absolutely agreed. Demonic SHOULD be baseline, but just like Xaedys mentioned above, if I were to choose one talent to become baseline, First Blood would be my first choice, hands down.
Demonic is so amazing and unique and there’s absolutely no competition for it. Momentum has a myriad of issues and Nemesis must be the most boring, basic and uninspired talent in the entire game. Even with only 6s duration I bet Demonic is still going to be our top choice. It should just be made baseline already and Blizzard would have one less thing to worry about.
I mentioned in another post, but maybe giving us Immolation Aura without the Fury generation (which was the whole point of the entire talent) is kinda insulting. Maybe it’s a late April fools joke? One can only hope.
I kinda understand why they made Immolation Aura baseline. It was a baseline Demon Hunter ability in Warcraft 3 and Illidan is very obviously in Havoc spec, so it makes sense we have it. It’s just absolutely mediocre on itself without the Fury generation part.
Not only that, but they are trying to move towards class-global abilities rather than spec-specific ones, and Immo Aura was already baseline for Vengeance. Since it was a talent already for Havoc, it seems a rational choice.
That said, Immo Aura is getting a Havoc-exclusive rank mutation that doubles its duration to 12 seconds, which gives it enough damage to be worth casting even without the Fury gain. That said, it still leaves the ability feeling fairly…meh. It’s also on the same cooldown as Eye Beam, 30s (only Vengeance gets the 15s CD rank mutation), so it isn’t really doing much to liven up the baseline rotation. We’ve just gone from casting one ability every 30s to two, and we’re still stuck with nothing but Demon’s Bite and Chaos Strike in between.
I would like First blood baseline as well, but without the fury cost reduction to blade dance.
I like blade dance, and i like using it in Single Target, but atm it feels more like a “press it on cool down all the time because max deeps” ability instead of an ability that interacts with your fury managment at all.
But i guess they don’t wanna make it baseline because it’s one of those “Hey look the AoE ability can become a Single Target ability, aha” options that Blizzard loves so much. It being baseline would effectively ALWAYS make the single target rotation be exactly the same as the AoE roation, instead of a “choice” alteration due to a decision made in your talent selection. This wouldn’t be an issue if they spiced up the baseline AoE rotation with something extra (like making fel rush actually worth using baseline).
I’m all for them making First Blood baseline in some form, but they’d need to then flesh out our AoE rotation to make it different from the Single Target rotation if Blade Dance wasn’t what made it different anymore.
Personally I don’t like demonic baseline, I want to see other play styles emerge like in legion. I think that demonic builds should be kept the way they have worked and that the other useless talents like cycle of hatred be swapped out for bloodlet or new ideas that actually allow different gameplay.
From a lore perspective I’d like it as there are some dh’s that feed into the demon within more(aka Demonic build) and others who focus more on the elven agility gained from their powers (momentum or chaos blades or something new)
It’s either that or we get a new ability to replace it in ST. I’d still argue for the Fury reduction even if we get something else to press on a ST rotation though.
There’s no reason not to have Demonic and something else that adds to the gameplay. Metamorphosis is on a 4min cooldown and it’s one of the least powerful DPS cooldowns out there. Weaving in and out of Metamorphosis occasionally is a good solution if they wish to keep it this way.
There’s little reason not to make Demonic baseline. Just balance everything else accordingly, as they’ve already done by reducing its duration by 25%. People might brush it off, but 2 seconds is very substantial.
My only hope for the Demonic nerf is that maybe the duration won’t start ticking until after the Eye Beam animation ends. Curently, we blow close to 2s just casting Eye Beam and the Demonic buff starts ticking when you press Eye Beam.
If they are changing it so Demonic starts ticking once the channel ends, that would basically leave it how it is. I don’t know why this would be needed/changed at all, but it’s what I’m hoping. Otherwise… ugh.
This is going to make it so we no longer get 2 blade dance for each demonic window. I’m not saying this was hard, but it was part of mastering the spec that is going to be lost, and make our rotation even simpler.
It should be possible with some Haste later on, but even then people usually brush off a 2s nerf. It’s 2s out of 8, so it’s a 25% nerf to the talent.
I honestly don’t believe it’s going live like this. We should give enough feedback so that they consider making it baseline at least if they are adamant on the 6s duration.
I’m not sure if I’d say our rotation is getting any simpler, looking at the current “changes”.
It’s just not changing. Assuming damage values for talents remain relatively the same, we’ll still take what we do now, we just won’t get as many Death Sweeps off as we were able to.
(They really need to reduce the baseline Meta cool down because it just feels bad in dungeons way too often)
I just really don’t want to end up in a situation in Shadowlands where i can’t use Demonic because another talent on that row is much better for maximum DPS. That scares me.
Plus, if it does turn out to be the best, yeah that’s great but we’ll once again have a dead talent row. Demonic as a concept is just way too powerful, and way too cool to not have.
(Oh and Layke, Yes it makes it more simple. Part of the current skill of Havoc (what little is involved tbh) is trying to get in 2 Death Sweeps in the window. Now it just won’t be possible most likely, so that skill element is gone.)
But that requires a certain level of gear. Rn i can sometimes do it with not much haste at all, even with less than 3 Furious Gaze traits, if i manage my GCDs perfectly.
Plus, the amount of haste that would require would be absurd
Legendary powers, soul binds, and the possibility of 4-p sets will probably have a great effect on gameplay variety with our current talent situation.
I think currently going essence break would be better than first blood now since it’s an aoe that scales with mastery and also boosts blade dance for cleave situations.
No more fancy blade dancing every 7 seconds will make the class feel more dull, but atleast it’ll feel more like playing warcraft 3 with immolation aura constantly being up.
I like Essence Break, and i think it will definitely be the go-to for dungeons even if First Blood is good. Primarily because it actually directly increases our AoE damage output + our ST output, unlike First Blood which really only increases our ST damage realistically. But i don’t want to NOT HAVE First Blood, which sucks
About your first point tho, i don’t think the class should require external things to feel good to play and have variety. The dominant talents that we’ve gotten so used to having like First Blood and Demonic, as well as other things like Imo Aura generating Fury should just be added in as baseline additions, and we should have more interesting talents that provide that gameplay variety and customization.
Who tf thinks Cycle of Hatred, Nemesis, Insatiable Hunger, and Trail of Ruin are interesting options? I don’t, even tho i think Trail of Ruin is vital to patching up our weakness in sustain AoE situations.
Legendaries and soul binds are external form of power - rental power - and classes should feel complete without them. Removing First Blood will make it feel like the class is missing something important, and I don’t think the increase in AoE is going to be worth it in a gameplay perspective.
Also, Essence Break is a redundant talent, as Demonic already does the same thing, but significantly better. On top of increasing the damage of both Chaos Strike and Blade Dance (way more than Essence Break, mind you), it also gives Haste and Leech if talented into it. Essence Break is a clearly redundant and inferior talent that’s competing on the same row with a talent that majorly influences gameplay.
It decreases the Fury cost of our main AoE ability by over 50%. I’d say that’s quite substantial for both AoE and ST. Do you realize that if you take Essence Break your Blade Dance is going to cost 35 Fury? That’s awful.
And yes, First Blood, Demonic and Immolation Aura Fury generation should all be baseline.