I find it rather amusing how people go to such a stupid extent to flame another class. It honestly impresses me how little you must have going on in your life to necro a 5 month old thread so that people know how angry you are.
3 Likes
speaking of being brain dead… it took him all 5 months to come up with that great deduction.
3 Likes
-
Demon hunters have a pretty large population. So odds are people have a lot more recent experiences involving demon hunters (my personal anecdote is whenever I start keys DH is usually my most seen dps in queue). Nobody is thinking about how busted rogues were to play vs in cata, legion frost dk in pvp, How trash the balance has been in 6.x or 7.x patch. They think about more recent experiences.
-
Balance, both pvp/pve. They’re perceived as a low skill high viability class and it can upset players to feel like they’re putting in more effort and still being beaten by someone who put in less effort. (I personally think DH is pretty low skill floor compared to many other classes, also more forgiving because they’re extremely durable with 100% dodge being built into their damage rotation, leech, and darkness/blur+ a talentable immune) Just cuz I think their skill floor is low doesn’t mean i don’t think good demon hunters are skilled players. Any skilled player on any class will easily show you the difference between a good and bad player. Also, they’re an absolute abomination in pvp. Unpeelable, unkiteable, self sustaining class with top tier mobility and good damage. Only class with degenerate mana break gameplay, Rain from Above is also a degenerate move with way too much damage for what it gives you. Blade dance is an incredibly infuriating move to play against considering it’s in their basic rotation.
-
Honestly… They’re kind of tacky… or well, their sound effects/playerbase make them come across as tacky. They have like 3 generic scream voices that sound lame to me. If i had a nickel for every “illidari” or “illidan” pun in a name, I’d actually be rich.
-
They’re competing in the “mobile leather” category which already is filled by rogue/monk, so players of both classes can feel like they’re being stiffed in their fantasy for the new kid on the block.
-
Old demo warlock players feel like their spec was kneecapped for the sake of DH fantasy.
-
I don’t think they deserve as much hate as they get but I understand why players can feel so frustrated with them. I think the majority of my DH distaste comes from PVP where I feel like I have very little agency in stopping the DH from just running me down and mana breaking me like a dog. (UH DK is the only other dps spec that makes me just as frustrated)
-
I just now realized this thread was necro’d but I put too much effort into this post so ima post anyways
2 Likes
It’s a combination of being extremely accessible (starting at 98, so we’re everywhere), being simple to play, and being well rounded. There’s no area where we’re really at the top, but we’re far from the bottom.
People don’t like a class that can enter any form of content and perform well enough in it. It’s gotta be useless at something because having classes be well rounded is bad game design according to people, i guess.
Rather than asking that their own classes be made well rounded again, as they once were in MoP/WoD, because why bring things back up when we can drag things down further into the dirt.
1 Like
5 MONTHS LATER…
I saw the rez and chuckled. I didn’t bother replying because it was a question posed to fellow Demon Hunters.
And this.
You know the leech and the talentable immune are mutually exclusive, right? Basically no one takes Netherwalk, especially since it’s only a damage immunity, not a full immunity like Iceblock and Divine Protection. We can still be CC’d and receive debuffs during it, and while we can move around during it, we can’t attack at all (akin to ye olde Divine Protection).
I’ll grant you that, though as a class we’re behind druids and paladins at last count, and were behind hunters and priests up until about November or December 2019. What contributes to that perception is that:
- We only have 1 DPS spec, so if you see a DPS DH, he’s Havoc.
- Our tank spec is pretty weak, so nearly all DHs play DPS. As a result, if you see a DH period, he’s probably Havoc.
Even if we had a perfectly mid-range class representation, those two would likely combine to guarantee that Havoc is one of the most played in the game. This is somewhat akin to the fact that something like 95% of hunters you see are BM.
Add to that that we’re complete monsters in solo content (though to be honest, I don’t really see that as a bad thing. I hate soloing on a lot of my other toons (ex my shaman) simply because of how ridiculously flimsy they are), and that our damage is particularly well-oriented towards the content where the LFG tool is most used and has the most rapid cycling (M+), and ya, you’re going to see a lot of DHs queuing for your mythic run. It’s a combination of factors.
This may surprise you, but most DHs agree with you here. One of the absolute most common and most vehement asks amonst the DH community is for increased baseline complexity. Literally, our baseline rotation in BfA is three buttons, one of which is a fixed 30s CD with essentially zero pre-requisites for cast (Eye Beam is in the baseline rotation even without Demonic in BfA). The rotation has zero interaction, we literally just use Eye Beam on CD, Chaos Strike if we have enough fury, and Demon’s Bite if we don’t. There isn’t even really any RNG in it, since both sources of “RNG” (Demon Bite’s variable generation and Chaos Strike’s random refund) just contribute to fury economy and thus don’t change the above decision, just how often it weighs towards Chaos Strike. It’s a freakin’ joke.
SL is adding one additional 30s CD to that rotation, Immo Aura, but stripping even the fury generation from it, so it’s literally just a button you slap every 30s for damage and forget exists.
Let me make this clear, you could throw Demon’s Bite on button 1, Chaos Strike on button 2, Eye Beam on button 3, and in SL, Immo Aura on button 4, and then make a macro that just sequentially hits 4, 3, 2, 1 over and over again every 10ms or so, and do damn near max DPS with the base rotation.
I’m not sure I can think of any other class in the game for which that is true.
But DHs and others have been begging for increased complexity to the baseline rotation for ages now. Exhibit 1 (and 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8, and that’s just within the last ~month). Blizzard, though, for some reason seems to believe a faceroll rotation is appropriate for this class. None of us are sure why, nor do we want it.
This is the part that I think is most relevant, and one reason I’ve been campaigning hard to have First Blood removed, rather than made baseline, and have Blade Dance’s place in the single target rotation filled by some other ability (like Felblade).
Blade Dance’s dodge on its own isn’t a problem; in a world without First Blood using it would require both a DPS loss and careful timing. First Blood on its own is mostly not a problem either (a fair chunk of DPS classes now have talents, like Dance of Chi’ji, that integrate their AoE ability into their single-target rotation). The problem comes when you have a dodge as part of the standard rotation.
One other thing that could help immensely instead is simply to make the dodge window scale with haste as well. Currently, it’s a 1.0s dodge window fixed, to my knowledge, but extreme amounts of haste can reduce the cooldown of Blade Dance into the 4-5s range (though Furious Gaze, the reason for that extreme amount of haste, is gonzo in SL already), pushing that dodge to closer to 20-25% uptime, which is overpowered for something so passive and naturally part of the rotation.
Blade Dance has a 9s CD baseline, so if the dodge window was reduced at the same rate as the cooldown, the window would always be at 1/9th, or ~11%, of the rotation. To be clear, I would prefer to see First Blood removed entirely and the dodge components lefts as-is (1.0s fixed is fine, imo, on an ability that has to be intentionally cast and isn’t part of the natural rotation), but scaling the window with haste is probably a smaller and easier change, since Blizzard appears to be in the mood of “as little effort as possible” with SL class changes.
To be fair, before DHs, there was an absolute plague of Legolas hunter names. Probably still are, tbh. Immature peeps gunna be immature, you really can’t stop them.
Not sure on the tacky sound effects, though, I’ve not played with game sounds turned on in literally a decade or so.
Necro’d thread or not, your post has a lot of thought and effort behind it, isn’t just mindless DH hatred and “curb-stomp 'em to oblivion”, and contributes to the conversation. It is more than granted a stay from the normal “let necro’d threads die” rule.
5 Likes
necro thread is necro to anyone bothering to read any of this garbage i’ll sum it up for you in tldr fashion
salt
salt
EZ SPEC LOW SKILL LEVEL ALL CLASSES MUST BE HARD TO PLAY LIKE MINE
salt
someone running their mouth about the class/spec that has no idea how either works
salt
salt
That’s the tl:dr of this thread.
2 Likes
that makes absolutely no sense, Illidan and the DH from WC3 were fragile glass canon heroes. Their “tankiness” is an agility trait, stemming solely from “Evasion”
Yawn, refer to the class forums of the first two expansions when they introduced DK and Monk. Next slide.
because its new
its strong
its simple to grasp
but dont fool urself… the other classes r simple too…
these dumb people act like playing a mage is some super complicated thing lmfao. i think those people r stupid
6 Likes
Every class in the game is absolutely easy to pick up. Demon Hunter in particular is, without a shred of a doubt, the easiest by a very large margin. Combine that with the influx of gear that happens later in patches and the fact that the majority of players are running content they already outgear force Demon Hunters to shine in lights they otherwise don’t at higher levels of difficult content.
Take for example someone’s weekly 10-15 M+. Some random DH in heroic gear with rank 3 essences, cloak, right corruption pieces will delete many packs by themselves within an Eye Beam before many other classes will get a 2 - 3 GCDs off.
Same story won’t be written for a 20 and up key…which is why the good players aren’t really complaining about DH. At least, not about it’s damage. It’s mostly about it’s utility that’s arguably, and within good reason, too good.
1 Like
That’s the weird part, we lost none of our utility. We lost some of our survivability, which I guess you could consider as a form of “utility”, but both Fury and rogues also took a hit in that area, and everyone else was already either fine or absolutely junk at self-survivability (though they did at least buff a couple of the really low ones, like Enhancement). We kept Chaos Brand, we kept Chaos Nova, we kept both Disrupt and Consume Magic, we kept Imprison, we kept all of it.
Like, it’s actually a bit worrying.
What’s sad is they’re trying to throw even more at you. “Just in case all that other stuff wasn’t enough, here’s an AoE mortal strike effect and an AoE inverse Lust debuff!” It is disgraceful how obscenely favored Havoc is right now by the devs.
The spec is literally just an insert of Star Wars: The Force Unleashed 2, but god damn do the devs love that game from the looks of things.
And honestly, I wouldn’t even care about all of that if Havoc DHs weren’t also livelords. It’s so ridiculous entering a BG and seeing every Havoc DH on the map go full mongoloid at the start of the first battle. They just dive right into the middle of the opposing team without a care in the world. They KNOW they’re not going to die because they have such an absurd amount of durability that is fed by their absurd burst damage that has far too much uptime.
A spec with that much mobility should be held accountable for their positioning. They can dart in and out of combat at will. There is absolutely no way to justify how much durability this spec has.
2 Likes
To be fair, most of our burst right now comes from corruption + Furious Gaze, which is going away in SL, and Demonic is taking a 25% nerf to boot. Our survivability has also been pretty seriously dialed back in SL. Blur is now only 20% DR instead of 35%, Netherwalk (do people take that in PvP? I doubt it, but maybe) was nerfed from 120s CD to 180s, and our leech took a serious kneecap as well. Baseline, we have zilch for leech, and with Soul Rending, we have 50% less out of meta and 25% less in meta compared to BfA.
So ya, those are already being addressed.
That said, I do boggle rather strongly at the new PvP talents. I don’t understand at all why we needed Mortal Strike. We already have considerable healing pressure from our mana drains. The “AoE inverse lust” is Sinful Brand, however, one of our covenant spells. The AoE portion only occurs when we use Meta (4m CD, or 2m with Demonic Origins), and the entire ability needs to be considered in context with other covenant abilities.
Rogues, for example, can lay out a permanent DoT, or steal 15% of incoming healing on their target (which, by its wording, would seem to stack with Wound Poison), or a bonus vanish. Warlocks get an AoE drain life. Priests can straight up turn off the ability of a target to heal or damage for 5s, on only a 45s CD. Mage’s Mirrors is a tongues + snare that on the third cast (and it lasts for 20s otherwise) nukes you and also roots and silences you. Hunters get free Kill Shot casts on a 30s CD, or 30% bonus crit and completely ignoring LOS for 10s on only a 60s CD. Druids get to spam 16 abilities, favoring their current spec, over 4 seconds, which could be an incredible amount of burst damage. DKs can spawn an extra limb that cast Death Grip every 2 seconds for 12 seconds.
Like, there are a lot of covenant abilities that look like they are going to be hilariously overpowered in PvP. I’m honestly not sure what Blizzard’s gameplan there is (or if they even have one). Like, the balance issues in PvE are not insignificant, but PvP is just going to be a dumpsterfire unless they just straight up block covenant abilities from functioning there.
lol if you think the DH was a glass canon hero, you weren’t very good at Warcraft 3.
Demon Hunter was one of the tankiest heroes in the game. The only one definitively better than them was the Pandaren Brewmaster because of its massive HP pool and semi-evasion.
Crypt Lord could get on their level with full ranks in Spiked Carapace and Locust Swarm, but even then they’d just be on the Demon Hunter’s level, DH was tanky from level 1. Beyond that the Death Knight could self-heal by eating their own units, and the Paladin had Divine Shield which made them unattackable so it’s kind of a question as to if they actually qualify as tanky or not since they couldn’t absorb damage for their army.
Demon Hunters in WoW most definitely have a tank spec because that was the role which they were used for in Warcraft 3. Aside from dealing good damage and being a good hero killer with Mana Burn, they were the tank that the fragile ranged-heavy Night Elf army needed. They were often paired with a Pandaren Brewmaster second hero for similar reasons.
DH tankiness stems solely from Evasion, an agility archetypal trait.
Having only one DPS option isn’t a DH monopoly. Shadow priest, ww monks, and Ret paladins wish that logic worked.
Edit: just realized what a necro this was. Apologies.
3 Likes
See my comment above. DH’s aren’t the only class with one DPS spec.
Edit: just realized what a necro this was. Apologies.
2 Likes
I mean, in theory that’s the way it should work. Blizzard hasn’t put really one iota of effort into balance in BfA, but in general over the last few expansions, the DPS spec of a class with only one has been more reliably good than any random spec from a pure DPS class.
Yeah the fact they had a 10/20/30% chance to negate damage was part of it. As was Metamorphosis, which increased their HP and regeneration when active. But also the Demon Hunter was just fairly tanky out of the gate, with above-average HP and extremely high armor rating.
My point is that calling them a glass cannon is not correct at all, they’re one of the tankiest in the game.
1 Like