Why bring a holy that does 200 less dps when you can bring a ret that only does negligibly less HPS? (21/0/30 ret builds have less than a 3% difference in healing potential than full holy paladins).
What people who understood the game said before WoW classic: they’re hot garbage.
What people who understand the game says now: they’re hot garbage.
Reality? They’re hot garbage.
They do nothing that any other class can’t do better, serve ZERO distinct function, and any spot you give to a retnoob means you’re preventing someone who can heal better, dps better, or do anything better from going.
You should only bring a ret player when:
- They’re a much, MUCH better player than the worst player available.
- They’re far more geared than your worst player available.
- They’re not idiots (like 1% of ret players to start with).
Quite literally if they are only the top 5% of all ret players should they even be allowed to raid. Even then that is iffy.
However to the OP, they are the worst spec in the game. Balance and both shaman meme spec’s now do more damage. Elemental even does nearly twice the damage ret does.
Trend follows every percentile bracket, you can change it on the tab on the link.
ironically enough, it wasn’t Tigole and Furor who nerfed Paladins - sure they were vocal from their previous MMO days when they whined and moaned on the forums and threatened to shut down servers because of hybrids there but they never had any sway on class design in WoW - they worked in other areas of the game
however, the same cannot be said about Tom Chilton - aka Kalgan - he is the one who was singularly responsible for the sad state of affairs that was Paladins
while Kevin Jordan designed each class including Paladins, Kalgan was his boss and overruled him constantly and even went so far as to nerf the entire class if Kevin’s Paladin ever came close to defeating his Warrior in a duel
read this from KJ’s discord a few months back:
Slicy, if you’re going to make a statement like that you should at least complete the full statement and also say that the class is riddled with bugs on Classic that no one ever predicted a year ago:
so to be clear, you KNEW of every single one of these bugs before Classic launched?
TLDR - they had to set the record straight not once, not twice, but THRICE on Nightfall and yet this and multiple other Paladin bug reports have sat fallow for almost a year now…
Nightfall still bad, ret still bad. Ret still bad even if Nightfall procced while GCD is up. As ret you can never pull your weight and will always be carried. That said, if you’re a good guy, do your jobs, and your raid likes you and is fine carrying you, then by all means carry on. At least you did it correctly instead of getting ret to 60 and coming here shocked that no one has a raid spot for you.
just posted this in the TC discord for reference - Shadow Oil being afflicted both by an internal cd AND subject to GCD bug - when that was a large part of what would have made Spelladin with Manual Crowd Pummeler viable if not optimal for Ret dps on Classic:
ThelorasToday at 11:48 AM
here’s a case in point
remember when people got on the beta and tested shadow oil and whether it removed Imp SBolt stacks
when we saw it didn’t everyone got excited and not just Paladins - similarly when we saw that it did in fact scale with spell dmg (albeit a bit less than we TCed)
because it opened up the possibility of shadow oil becoming the meta for Fury and Rogue dps as well
but it wasn’t until much later that after such dispointments that we discovered it had a icd attached to it
for months we were all pulling our hair out wondering WTF was wrong
SmeetToday at 12:01 PM
And then we learned that the GCD also blocks it /shrug
ThelorasToday at 12:11 PM
exactly - along with Nightfall
SmeetToday at 12:15 PM
Yeah… at least with nightfall we now know how to work around it, which makes it a lot stronger of an option
ThelorasToday at 12:17 PM
the greatest irony of all regarding nightfall on classic
hamstring/wing clip spam = meni meni meni bad
The GCD ‘bug’ is not a bug, according to Blizzard. They claim the reference client has the same design. It’s a stupid design for sure, but it’s apparently not a bug.
Because that story is not true at all, they were PvE content devs and had literally zero to do with class development or design. The whole conspiracy theory comes from a post about bad design in Everquest and the hate for that in Everquest.
yes i know but as I said in the previous post - the great irony is that Ret is now the best best for swinging Nightfall in your raid - especially with this Weak Aura which tracks GCDs:
"After your swing starts, a bar will be shown that is red for 1 second then will be green for (your current weapon speed) - 1.5 seconds. During the green bar, you can cast abilities without preventing a weapon proc due to GCD.
Made for paladins by default, but can be adapted for any class. Set the “Seal Buffer Time” to 0 to disable it. Rogues can change “GCD Time” to 1, or it can be increased to provide a little extra room."
TLDR - a warrior or hunter spamming their hamstring or wing clip ends up in LESS Nightfall procs compared to Ret which can now actively track their GCDs and adjust their Judgements, recasting Seals and Consecration accordingly
PS For what its worth, Kevin Jordan 100% sees it as a bug and would have fixed it had he known about it at the time - and he said as much to me on his discord earlier this summer. Unfortunately, the current roster of blizzard devs are too lazy to actually fix it and yet claim with a straight face, “We have no idea what the original WoW dev team had in mind with Nightfall and these other weapon/item procs…”
Dude, that’s amazing actually really amazing, I can see some possibilities for this application to rogues.
here are the screenshots of Kevin Jordan’s view on the GCD “bug”
and I’m gonna throw this one in as well - while not technically commenting on the GCD bug but the Diamond Flask debacle and Warriors making Flask self healing sets - it is still relevant when casting Judgement on the current roster of Blizzard devs:
It being in the reference client doesn’t make it not a bug.
Juju flurry’s attack damage debuff was specifically flagged as a bug in their old developer notes, but it wasn’t fixed until burning crusade so it was left in classic.
It can be a bug AND be part of the reference client. They just are specifically not fixing those ones unless forced to.
This is why diamond flask scaling has been left alone despite it going against a patch note that states they removed the scaling from all Hp5 items. It’s a bug, but an intended bug for recreating this version of WoW specifically.
Had WoW been legitimately supported past 1.12, Juju flurry would have been fixed, diamond flask would have stopped scaling, and these weapons almost certainly would have been fixed to proc normally (since it’s only a small number of legacy weapons that are even impacted and seemingly at random).
says the resto Druid…be careful with that attitude. Your class isn’t that far off.
That depends on what you consider ‘viable’.
Able to technically meet the Patchwerk DPS threshold? Sure. Able to compete against other DPS and justify their raid slot over another class that either uses similar gear or is undergeared? No.
We have a ret and a boomkin in both of our raid teams. We prefer to let people play how they want to unless the raid comp becomes a problem for completing content.
So far, no respecs required. All content has been cleared week one. The game is easy and your biggest challenge is getting 40 people to work together correctly, not that one of your raiders is doing 1/3 the DPS of the others. I would rather everyone have fun playing what they like, then being forced to gear and play a certain way. After all it is a video game, meant to be played for fun.
You guys are confusing me with someone who thinks the GCD ‘bug’ should work that way. It’s really stupid. I said so. When you quote me and leave that part out, it kind of warps the intent of my posts.
Wow. First Pete and then Repeat . I wouldn’t guess reading skills to be top priority to a rogue.
I merely offered you screenshots what Kevin Jordan said straight from his discord when I asked him about the GCD issue.
the TLDR is that it is a bug - they just be bothered to fix it - yet they fix/nerf distiller in less than a week even within their precious #NoChanges bubble