Casting Delay - please reconsider some of these changes

PTR Feedback
1

In the patch notes I have read ~

Developer Comments: We are re-evaluating Casting Delays by individualizing each of their cooldowns. This means that using a skill with a Casting Delay will no longer add the cooldown to all other skills that have Casting Delays. This will allow players to use more varieties of skills and promote more gameplay.

I see this as a positive change and yes this opens up alot of possibilities and is a great change. However, individualizing each of their cooldowns is one thing, removing casting delays entirely is something else.

I accept that the dev’s look at this from a PvM perspective and not from a PvP persective however:

  1. Reduced the casting delay on Psn Javalin from 4 seconds to 1 is far too strong. Please consider leaving it at 4 seconds. You have already buffed Psn Javalin enough in this patch.
  2. Reduced the casting delay of Valk from 6 seconds to 0.6 seconds. This has no impact on the game, go ahead.
  3. Removed the casting delay of Dragonflight. I get that for the purposes of PvM dragonflight is not used. For PvP it is incredibly powerful. I would recommend that rather then removing the casting delay you consider (a) reducing its range to screen only and (b) increasing its damage. This negative and positive will have the net affect of players exploring the damage boost and making it more used in PvM while not breaking it in PvP.
  4. Reduced the casting delay of Shadow Warrior and Shadow Master from 6 to 0.6 seconds. This is also too powerful in PvP and not needed for PvM. If a shadow dies its no biggee to recast it. I really am at a loss as to why you are doing this for shadow’s, if you play assassin you cast shadow (warrior or master). This delay reduction is too much for PvP.
  5. Reduced casting delay of blade sentinel - no issues
  6. Fire Storm; Molten Boulder; Fissure; Volcano; Hurricane no issues
  7. Armageddon casting delay removed. I dont know about this one.
  8. Fist of Heaven casting delay reduced from 1sec to 0.4sec. The casting delay is not the issue with Fist of Heaven. I would suggest that instead of reducing the time (issues in PvP) that instead you buff its damage, similar to what i suggested in another thread, against Monsters only and not players.
  9. Removed casting delay to hydra. All of the changes made in the PTR intertwine. As it remains to be seen how FHR/stunlock works its difficult for me to comment re: Hydra but at the very least you would ahve been better offer reducing the casting delay rather then removing it. This appears to simply be too strong. better to reduce its delay by 25%.

I am not convinced that this casting delay removal was fully trashed out. While I accept that in PvM this has little or no impact, for the purposes of PvP you are in some places radically changing the landscape and making certain things overpowered (OP). I do not believe that this was an intended consequence of these changes. I am more of the view that you thought this would make things easier for PvM players.

In this regard, the game does not need to be made “easier” in this way. Yes I see the PTR has nerfed shapers with that IAS change (accepting you wanted to make more weapons viable, but not realising this buff to slower weapons was in fact a nerf to the build that would use them), but what are you are doing by removing (entirely) casting delays is in some cases worse then buffing an S Tier skill, as it effectively breaks certain aspects of PvP which are very hard to balance as it is.

I would suggest that instead of removing the casting delay to buff the skill in another way (note Dragonflight does not need a buff ok) or reduce the casting delay by a smaller %. I would note that frozen orb is always popular in pvm but not in pvp and therefore consider:

(a) fixing the MDR bug (as a consequence it becomes viable in pvp)
(b) reducing the casting delay of frozen orb (as a consequence it becomes viable in pvp).
If you accept that Frozen Orb is already in a good place then you should consider buffing the damage on Lightning Sorc’s (please dont touch fire sorc’s, with that hydra buff you have already done enough there).

Wholesale reductions to certain skills casting delays is simply too strong a buff. While we can work around some of these changes, its almost impossible for certain ones (Dragon Flight, FoH).

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My first post was for the consideration of an entrance level runeword granting teleport, on the basis that it would be a “class balance fix” enabling more classes to be viable (played) from Day1 of ladder. i got a 404 when revisiting the topic so i made a new topic here: Please consider a new Mid-Level Runeword Granting +Teleport

My second Topic related to “shopping” items from vendors - refresh tool and possible ability to shop and/or gamble sorceress orbs - Shopping from Vendors - refresh screen

My third Topic related to the buffs to Necro’s and Paladins where i suggested that the buffs only be for PvM and not for PvP and that FoH should not have its casting delay reduced/removed: Bone Spirit, Aura’s and FoH do not need these buffs

My fourth topic related to the MDR Bug where having multiple elements of damage would actually REDUCED your damage where your opponent had items that grant the ability “magic damage reduced” (mdr) : The Magic Damage Reduced (MDR) bug in PvP

My Fifth topic related to a bug where if you used jewels with enhanced damage + min/max, in anything other then a weapon, it would bug the item and not grant the correct damage modifier as specific on the jewel: The Jewel Bug - how damage from jewels does not work properly

My sixth topic related to charge bug, how a fix has caused a problem, and the ww bug how something has changed with how it works resulting in less damage for the iconic build: Please fix “Charge Bug” and Barbarian WW Bugs

My seventh topic reviewed the new runewords and provided feedback relating to them. Basically, they are an addition to the game, slightly underpowered but they filled a gap. More needed, slightly better mods required. i.e. with some minor tweaks some of these runewords will be great while still not being overpowered. The New Runewords - Observations

My eight topic related to the Shaper Nerf in the PTR where Increased Attack Speed (IAS) in shaper forms was made to make more weapons viable but as a side effect appears to have unintentionally crippled Shapers. Shape attack speeds issue - Not working as intended

My 9th Topic dealt with the casting delay reductions / removals and in particular called out that Dragon Flight and FOH are simply too strong OP with these changes.

2 Likes
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psn jav from 4 to 1 second basically makes that skill playable, but 99.218% of javazons are still going to play lightning fury. You saying it is far too strong is laughable.

4 Likes
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Nah, we need more viable PvM builds that feel better to play. Removing the cooldowns and greatly reducing others was needed. With all of these changes, PvP should be interesting. It was never balanced to begin with.

2 Likes
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Your looking at this from the aspect of PvM. from a lens of PvP the delay time is very overpowered. have you studied the numbers on plague ?

However regardless, with plague damage buffed you are doing more damage. if they really want the build to be more PvM viable they could just increase the damage even more while leaving the timer alone. The damage is not the problem in PvP the timer is.

I am all for more diversity, you probably saw my thread about a mid runeword with teleport, thats a better driver of diversity then this. Buffing underused skills is commendable but tinkering with delay timers (to this extent) causes problems.

At the end of the day plague will simply be banned in HLD PvP play so its not the end of the world, but its misguided to make changes to all these skills without first considering everyone (PvM and PvP) that plays the game.

1 Like
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You say it has no impact on PvM, but it has as much ipact as on PvP. And while I don’t say PvPers should not have their fun, that aspect of the game was never balanced. These changes were made for playthroughes, not PvP, devs allready stated this, so you’re not wrong. While PvM players welcome the changes, so they can play and experiment with new builds, and not the 20 year old setups and builds, that everyone knows in and out. Why can’t PvPers be more excited, to play new setups and builds? Imean there must be some, that became more viable than before.

2 Likes
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On the subject of casting delay changes, I did realise that the combination of frozen orb and blizzard, while unusual, is now incredibly powerful.

Think about it - both skills have a casting delay because both of them deal damage over time. You cast blizzard, and it rains icicles for a few seconds.

With them no longer sharing a casting delay, you can alternate between casting blizzard and frozen orb, decimating anything not completely immune to cold. Both have a common synergy in ice bolt. So, you could invest 20 points into frozen orb, blizzard, ice bolt, cold mastery and glacial spike. You’ll end up with nearly maxed frozen orb and blizzard, with the ability to stack them for massive damage. Well, technically frozen orb will be maxed, and blizzard will be 1 synergy away from being maxed.

Blizzard/meteor also gets significantly stronger as a combo I think. The rate at which you can cast spells, if using two that blend well, is now much, much higher.

Sorcereress, in some cases, could have double the DPS from this casting delay change.

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The only one that really worries me is foh. I wish they just focused on the magic damage component being increased for pve.

Plague javelin was needed, it still pales in comparison to poison nova and lightning fury. Dragon flight changes don’t matter much with enigma existing.

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I’m getting really tired of all those posts about PvP balance.
Most players don’t care about it, PvP has always been secondary in this game.

Game is and should be balanced around PvM only.

Next patch you will QQ again if they remove the cd of Frozen Orb…

2 Likes
9

PvPer are excited and we like alot of the changes in the PTR but look at it this way:

Street Fighter 2, had a bug. The bug was “combinations”. suddenly they saw that this ability to do “combinations” was… amazing. here is an example of a streetfighter “combination”

alot of PvM players do not realise, that combinations also exist in D2LOD and now, in D2R. The changes that this patch brings, removing FHR or this 1 second timer, REMOVES and REDUCES alot of the COMBO’s from the game, this is not attractive.

In terms of new builds, the changes to the game do not create more builds, they just weaken (shapers) or buff (nec/assa/dudu) pre-existing builds. Psn was already overpowered in pvp, nec and assa and dudu(windy) were already overpowered in pvp. yes we like the bowa buffs, auradins were already overpowered.

I hope this clarifies. To be clear we like change, the dev’s heard us and made these changes to FHR and we acknowledge that this looks like a direct nod to PvP players, but this almost removal of the need for FHR (a core mechanic to the game like FCR, FRW) is simply too much, we are just asking you to make changes yes, but not this far as it causes problems (no more combo’s).

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THIS IS A PVM GAME BRO. Balancing a PvM game should always be about PvM not the few percent that play PvP . When u are done balancing PvM u can consider if some skills should have a PvP penalty. Personally i really dont care for PvP its sooo boring and a waste of time.

1 Like
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The dev’s of this game predominantly look at it through the lens of PvM. In this everyone is in agreement. With regards to these changes, and Frozen Orb, its clear to me anyway, that they have metric’s for used skills, and the fact is, in PvM Frozen Orb is widely used. Therefore they do not need to BUFF it, but rather to buff under used skills in PVM, such as Lightning Sentry, such as Bone Spirit, such as Leap Attack etc.

In terms of Frozen Orb I would however comment that a reduction in the casting delay of Frozen Orb WOULD be good for both PvM AND PVP. provided that reduction was a 25-50% reduction as opposed to a 90% reduction in casting delay, or its entire removal.

We all play PvM, and everyone takes their enjoyment from the game in alot of different way, whether it be crafting, racing, pvming or pvping. if you dont like the few % that pvp, that craft, that race, fine, but thats no reason for the developers of the game to almost entirely remove the faster hit recovery mechanic or the entire casting delay mechanic.

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I dunno. .6 seconds on Vakyrie is going to trivialize bosses since she’ll effectively always be up and tanking the boss.

If they want to reduce Valkyrie cooldown, I think the cooldown reduction should come from investments in Decoy.

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PvP is a secondary thing like it or not . The game is built around PvM there is no quests or actual gameplay that involves PvP its something a few percent of the community invented to be a thing. The game must be balanced around PvM

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No matter how many casting delays

Only one role

Why not share

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I must admit I dont agree with you. The game does not need to be balanced around PvM and in fact, its not balanced around PvM. We have 7 different classes, and each class has their own unique mechanics. Some play more support then others, they do not all need to be massive damage dealers. Take paladins conviction or a necro’s lower resist, or a shapers Oak or a Barbs Battle Orders. its a team game it was designed for the classes to complement each other. Therefore, each class completes actions in the game in various different ways, some slower then others. For example, a Java specialises in Cows, a Sorc (early ladder) specialises in getting to baals throne room and doing things faster (like MF, for the first 1-3 months) and a paladin specialises in doing ubers and dclone. Meanwhile a barb grants massive life boosts while a shaper… specialises in nothing. Therefore the game “must not” as you put it be balanced around PvM and its actually not balanced around PvM.

I can readily see that the developers want to balance the game around PvM but there is a glaring problem with shapers, and separately removing casting delays is simply not needed to balance. its like removing the mechanic faster hit recovery from the game, you do not need to remove faster hit recovery to “balance” the game. What are they going to remove next ? faster cast ?

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I will disagree and agree with you, to come extent.

I will agree to:

Bone spirit and FOH changes will probably unbalance Pvp Negativly.
FHR change in Pvp is weird, but we will see how that works. I think their goal is to prevent someone being stunned to infinity without being able to do anything forever.

I will disagree that most casting delays changes will affect PvP so much. At least not Negativly.

Hydras: They now work like traps. Was trapsin not having casting delay such a problem in pvp that hydras working the same is now a problem?

Valk and shadows: You say Summoning a minion has no impact for valk, but has impact for shadows. Both worked the same before, they will work the same now. Can’t have it both ways. I very much doubt re-casting a shadow every 0,6 seconds (it STILL has a delay) is going to impact Pvp to such an extent.

Poison javelin: 1 cast every second. Once again, since it’s now on par with most delayed skill casts, I don’t see it affecting Pvp negativly.

Yes, Pvp will change with these changes. New meta will show up, new builds will be brought forward. But this isn’t a bad thing. Try new things, you might like them. The one problem is when ONE build stands atop of everything and nothing else has a chance. most of what you said will not be a problem.

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The changes that they are making to FHR are better then what we currently have. In this regard, it is a welcome change. We are just asking for the change not to be so drastic. a happy medium is what is sought and this will, for the most part be enough to keep just about every pvper happy. EVERYTHING ELSE, we can live with.

If I take your examples:
Traps were laid down based on attack speed, Hydra’s had a casting delay. These are 2 different things. This arguement you put forth is based on a false assumption. If they change the mechanic’s of traps from based off attack speed to a 0 casting delay yes, we will be up in arms. All we are asking for is a reducing in Hydra casting delay, not a 90% reduced casting delay or its total removal. And please leave trap laying speed alone. It was broken on launch, they fixed it. amen.

Broadly assassins are so broken for PvP that I dont have the heart to argue re: casting delay of valk and shadows, but a user above has already highlighted how this is overpowered in PvM. Why not leave Valk and Shadow’s alone with there current delays. I mean do you REALLY need these skills to have a reduction in casting delay? please be honest, this does not change anything to PvM except make the game easier (please dont ask for an easier game).

I can live with poisen javelin. The PvM benefits outweight the PvP negatives. I acknowledge the idea of making plague viable so by all means let them go ahead. It will and it wont impact PvP. i.e. after this change we will simply have to Ban plague javalin completely from PvP, there is no other way around it but thats fine (honestly).

Also most pvpers have played all PvM and all PvP builds, even the non viable ones. And finally, rules in good mannered pvp are such that all builds have a chance. for the most part additional rules can be drafted to complement the changes to the PTR. Make no mistake, the changes being brought forward by Blizzard are radical and progress is good, however for stuff like casting delays and FHR, these have a profound impact ont the mechanic’s of PvP which it may be impossible to balance via any rule, and make the game less fun to play.

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I will once again disagree with you. Traps was based on attack speed, yes, but there was no delay. Hydras had a massive delay that made them unviable, period. Now, they have no delay, but are based on FASTER CAST RATE. Just like traps are with FASTER ATTACK SPEED.

Both of these now work the very same way. I see once again no problem there.

Valks and shadows was so long to re-cast in PvM it made barely any sense to use them. If it breaks pvp, they could always revert it to a 1.5/2 second delay. 6 is just too long, way too long.

One user ‘‘highligthing that this is overpowered in pvm’’. Show me where? You mean the guy who said this makes bosses trivial? Bosses will one shot these things anyway. You could cast clay golem without a 6 seconds delay before, and it didn’t break the game. As I said, this will be trivial anyway, so whatever happens happen. Valk and shadows won’t break pvm anyway. Certainly not bosses like that one guy said.

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The reason why Hydra’s were not viable was not because of the casting delay but rather because they did not do enough damage. Reducing or removing the casting delay has the net effect of increasing their damage as it now enables all the hydra’s to be cast, and out, attacking where before this was not possible. This is a good thing. The only issue I have is that this does not reward good play “here 5 hydra’s immediately”. Therefore by all means make the change and yes I agree with you the 1.5 / 2 sec is enough.

and yes to the valk and shadow stuff

if you have no casting delay on a minion it means the minion is effectively immortal. the idea is for minions not to be immortal and therefore as above, reduce the casting delay, but dont remove it.