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You went through a whole lot of effort to try explain why Mag’har weren’t speaking any particular language-despite the fact that WoW defaults to common as universal when using NPC dialogue between characters who usually speak other languages. More importantly, You provided zero evidence to support your claim that the Lightbound are preserving the Mag’har language.
You shoot down/criticize/express apprehension at every possibility of Alliance characters and ESPECIALLY Light based characters being villain batted in the future to the point where you’ve stated that Blizzard shouldn’t even feature the Scarlett Crusade in a theoretical Tyranny of the Light expansion because they’ve been done too much. But you also oppose the use of any other Light based characters to be used. That’s why every single argument you make just circles right back around to, “Please don’t have anyone following the Light be in the wrong anymore.”
So you expect all Prime Naaru to be framed as bad as Xe’ra, or is that only if they’re as controlling as she is? And aren’t they in charge of various groups of Light followers as much as she is?
And if Turalyon–despite leading the edit: Lightforged army–is subservient to Xe’ra and other naaru, then he’s at least ranked the same as/below other naaru. There’s also the fact that Turalyon’s subservient to Anduin. He’s the steward of the throne, holding it in the absence of, Anduin who is the actual ruler.
And what poor writing means Velen isn’t “the Man”? You’re theorizing on how future content might go and how he might not be the main in the future, but what does or doesn’t make him “The Man” right now?
Because right now, the only real criteria you’ve given as to what constitutes being “the Man” is being supernatural control freak and/or having authority over others. That’s just describing most every character of consequence in WoW’s story, good or bad. Sylvanas, Sargeras, Baine, Tyrande, Illidan, Malfurion, the Void Gods/Lords and every other major character could qualify as representative of “The Man” under your criteria.
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Thanks, I got the links working now.
The fact is neither of us have any evidence for our claims about the Mag’har language, you have provided zero evidence to support your claim that the Lightbound were eradicating it and vica versa for me. Upon reflection, it doesn’t prove your point, or mine, so neither of us can use it in our arguments.
Name the Alliance characters have I criticized being villain batted besides Light wielders? I’ve even said I have no problems with Genn becoming a villain.
While I don’t know if there are other Prime Naaru besides Xe’ra, the fact remains she was often called “the” Prime Naaru, not “a” Prime Naaru. Given Blizzard’s recent bout of villain batting, I wouldn’t be surprised if any other Prime Naaru that show up get villain-batted, but I hope I’m wrong.
I said Velen’s crisis of faith was poorly written, quote.
“Velen might have been a candidate for “The Man”, but given his poorly written crisis of faith…”
Velen is a religious leader. In works revolving around edgelord characters, their opponents are often stand-ins for “the establishment” - a non-majority group that holds the majority of power in society; popular targets in those stories are big business, law enforcement and organized religion. I said Velen might fit the criteria, re-read my quote above.
Turalyon doesn’t lead the Lightbound, he leads the Army of the Light. You can’t oppose conflating MU Grom with AU Grom, then do it to the MU Army of the Light and the AU Army of the Light because you’re desperate for the Alliance to be the baddies. “The Man” isn’t always the one who rules the entire power structure, “The Man” can be a representative of a small group with major power.
You were arguing that the Draenei preserved the Orcish language, though. Your original quote was, "…they even kept their language, animal husbandry and fighting style. They’re lacking a lot of the aspects of “cultural genocide”.
However, when we look at things, there’s no evidence that the Lightbound are preserving the Mag’har laguage.
I made the argument that there’s nothing showing they’re trying to preserve it, and indeed, there is nothing showing they’re trying to preserve it.
Similarly, you continue to claim the Lightbound have maintained Mag’har fighting styles because “but they still have their scouts”. You don’t link any pictures of said scouts to support this statement. However, I’ve already (repeatedly) linked a list of all the Lightbound forces shown in the scenario, and none of them are scouts in the Mag’har style.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lightbound
I know Alliance antagonists aren’t a problem for you. The idea of Light based antagonists is the problem for you. That’s why every single argument you make just circles right back around to, “Please don’t have anyone following the Light be in the wrong anymore.”
I mistyped when I described Turalon as leader of the Lightbound. I’ll go ahead and fix that. The rest of my statement still stands, though. How does leading Lightforged make Turalyon’s “the Man” if he’s still being subservient to Anduin and other naaru, who are somehow not “the Man”?
So Velen’s crisis of faith that still leaves him as leader of the Draenei and a priest of the Light makes him no longer qualify as “the Man”? I want to make sure so we can see what criteria you’re using. If I have it correct, then being “The Man” also requires not questioning what you believe in.
But again, your definition of “The Man” or “Establishment Characters” as being whoever’s in charge and confident about what they’re doing describes most every single character of importance in WoW. It even applies to Illidan.
I suppose I’ll get straight to the heart of the matter: Are there even any characters who’d qualify as “The Man” that have or would ever oppose Xe’ra and/or forces of the Light? Who are they?
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Your entire argument about language was based on misquoting me. I said, quote;
Actual genocide doesn’t give the “join” option, it skips straight to “everyone dies”. The Mag’har didn’t have their books, artworks, and structures destroyed, the Lightbound weren’t trying to remove them from history… they even kept their language, animal husbandry and fighting style…
Let me repeat that; “they even kept their language”. I did not say the Lightbound were actively preserving it, I said they allowed it to remain. Multi-lingual societies are a thing, even with theocracies and dictatorships.
You say “(I) know Alliance antagonists aren’t a problem for (me)” now, but you were throwing that accusation at me repeatedly earlier.
I already explained that “The Man” doesn’t have to lead the entire group; an example of “The Man” in a story can be a police chief - doesn’t have to be the commissioner, a Department Manager - doesn’t have to be a CEO, or a Bishop - doesn’t have to be a Cardinal or the Pope. Though I was wrong in one way… “The Man” does have to be a top figure of authority in a society, so Illidan could fit the criteria… except he’s more concerned about his own goals than exerting authority and he’s not in the same boat as Turalyon.
I also explained the definition of establishment; it’d fit Turalyon as the Regent of Stormwind (also, if anything, he’s Velen’s equal).
Re-read my quote, I said “maybe” in relation to Velen, I’m starting to think you’re being obtuse on purpose.
Turalyon opposed Xe’ra on a matter (trusting and defending Alleria) and he fits the criteria to be a representative of “The Man” - he leads Stormwind AND the Army of the Light (with Xe’ra dead, Lothraxion MIA and he outranks Captain Fareeya).
I’m not misquoting. The quote you provided claiming Lightbound let Maghar keep their language and other elements of their culture is the same quote as the one I keep posting.
However, when we look at things, there’s no evidence that the Lightbound are letting the Mag’har keep their laguage, animal husbandry, fighting style or anything else about Mag’har culture, and lots of evidence showing they’re actually replacing elements of Mag’har culture with Draenei/Lightbound stuff.
Illidain was a leader of the Moonguard, the leader of the Illidari and a commander in the combined efforts to defeat the Legion. He’s an authority figure. He meets all your criteria for “the Man”, but now you’re adding the “more concerned with his own goals” criteria, even though his ultimate goals are even the same as Xe’ra’s, too: defeat the Legion.
And when I asked characters who’d qualify as “The Man” that have or would ever oppose Xe’ra and/or forces of the Light? You answered “Turalyon”: Xe’ra’s greates champion, who unquestioningly followed her orders in he past and currently leads the Lightforged army.
Anyone else?
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I really like the idea of Turalyon being misguided and realizing too late he made a terrible mistake. Beings of the Light implicitly trust one another, so there is no reason for him to doubt the intentions of the Yrel and her Lightbound. By the time he realizes his mistake the Lightforged may of become part of the Lightbound.
It may well be that the Lightmother is Xe’ra again, but I do not think there are “AU Naaru”. There is one Light for all timelines, just as there is one Shadowlands, and one Twisting Nether.
Naaru are planar beings, and likely cannot be truly destroyed unless you kill them in Light Land, just like the spirits of the Old Gods were sent back to the Void. The Keepers may of simply sent Xe’ra back again to continue her task, and deeming the MU AoTL a failure for her actual goals of conquering the Mortal plane in the name of the Light, decided to start again with the Draenei of the decaying AU timeline.
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I will just say this:
one of the best part about the Lightbound is that they really felt like a Threat.
I like the save us from ourselves gimmick too. That sort of forced-conversion prospect (rather than just killing us) to turn once allies into enemies. Got some serious borg or invasion of body-snatchers type style to it in theory.
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It fits the themes of the Light too. As far as the Light is concerned, all should become one with the Light. It isn’t out to kill you, it just wants to convert you into part of itself… for your own good, you know. Xe’ra isnt violent, she just does not accept dissent from her goal, because again, it’s for your own good, and some times tough love is required.
The Light seems very…
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Yeah, it really makes you wonder who or what this Light Mother is? The only thing we know is that she is deeply involved in the Prophetic Visions of a Unified Under the Light future that Yrel is having. But I would wager that the Light Mother is at least someone that Yrel would be predisposed to trust; like something of the Light Cosmology. Which means … a Prime Naaru … or perhaps something more of Titan/Eternal/VoidLord Tier.
Regardless, I think Yrel is being manipulated through her prophetic visions, and is getting a bit of a early-years KJ visions vibe. The Light Mother is her Sargaras. And if Turalyon gets in on this, he’ll probably take the role of Ner’zhul. All shifted enough to be give them more outs and framed in that “Mother Knows Best” “Unity under the Light” crusade. All they really need is a Bladewind incident to really set things off. And I would wager, the murder of Velen or Faol (and pinning that death on either Geya’rah or Belmont) would absolutely set Turalyon and the Alliance back home off. IF this all occurs while SO MANY peaceniks are locked away in the SLs.
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Well between the Old Gods, the Jailer and the Burning Legion, the Light ain’t wrong about the world being dangerous. Sucks that we’re only going to see the Light’s end goal after it gets villain-batted.
I just think people latch on to the idea of Turalyon being a bad guy because they want an Alliance villain or another Light-worshipping villain or both, lore and characterization be damned.
This is a joke but my mind immediately thought “An’she’s ex-wife”
Paragons, which included Blood of the Highborne, came out 6 years ago, we’re so far away from the point where “the light is pure good and totally wants the best for everyone” that at this point the qqing about it not being shown like that in-game is just silly. It’s an inscrutable, amoral force that seems to empower hero and villain alike and has been since vanilla.
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An’she would never date The Light! When your eyes are the Moon and Sun, you only want Celestial Bodies, you know what I’m sayin’? 
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