Yea I mean when will Blizzard stop and actually write good backup and story reasons for the Alliance reasoning behind the attack than just going full on pro genocide or whatever names people like to name for the Alliance as of late.
I highly doubt that Yrel, AU Xe’ra and Turalyon would get the morally grey treatment as villains; just look at how much lore Blizzard has swept under the rug to push this “Light dogmatism of Yrel’s faction” story.
Blizzard has not been shy about Light-wielding antagonists before now; the Scarlet Crusade, fallen Paladins, Archbishop Benedictus still managed to use the Light for awhile after becoming Deathwing’s lackey, Kael’s Blood Elf faction siphoning Light from M’uru (Lady Liadrin was an antagonist before she turned against Kael and joined Lor’themar)… and more (even discounting the Lightbound - I don’t consider MU Xe’ra a villain).
AU Grom may not have repeated it BUT he’s still unpunished for his Iron Horde crimes. What punishment do you think would be enough for war crimes of AU Grom’s magnitude? That, or Blizzard has broken a major law of writing a story; “show, don’t tell.”
I wasn’t arguing about why the Draenei preserved the Orcish language, I was arguing against your claim that they had wiped out the Orcish language on AU Draenor.
I conceded that point that the animal husbandry had gone (but given Blizzard’s tendency of “tell, don’t show” and you jumping to conclusions with only one side of the story, I could argue that we’ll see Lightbound on worgs… but I don’t).
I never said anything about the Mag’har religion except theorizing that they could keep the Mag’har ancestor spirits in Auchindon, which iirc was still functioning after WoD. I know that genocide doesn’t require illiteracy, I was pointing to the literacy of the Lightbound Mag’har as evidence against them losing their language.
I’ll concede the point about whitewashing, though.
A little less personal attack, a little more lore discussion please (even you conceded your misrepresentation of me). There’s a difference between nuance and villain-batting. What Blizz is currently to the Light looks like the latter.
Since I conceded I was wrong on some points, it’s wrong of you to use them against me when I’ve turned away from those.
I have also repeatedly hit Tammy back with lore points to counter their arguments, but I don’t see you or Tammy acknowledging those… because you and Tammy both seem to want Light bad guys, lore, cliché status and character arcs be damned.
If Blizzard used your idea (that “wisdom of Solomon” type arc), that could work, but I don’t think they will. What’s shown in the game doesn’t match your story ideas, unfortunately.
What they’re doing with Yrel and the AU Draenei (and what I fear they’ll do to Turalyon) is akin to if they story suddenly made the Burning Legion good guys, then we had to free Sargeras from the Seat of the Pantheon and join the Legion (there’s even lore precedent; Sargeras’ reason for forming the Legion was retconned from ‘traumatized by their atrocities, he decided good was futie and embraced evil’ to ‘destroy the universe to destroy the Void and hope another life-bearing universe free of the Void emerges’).
Whats shown in the game is little to nothing. With the ONLY window into the Lightbound ideology being the Sermon of the High Exarch. Which tells us that at least in terms of dogma, Yrel’s current crusade is prompted by prophetic visions she kept having of a grand unification under a single vision of the Light. It nowhere mentions the legacy of the Iron Horde (though that is likely a factor), nor the death of the planet (which may be a factor, but also might just be rhetoric added in later on). Outside of that the only insight we have is from Geya’rah, who has said nothing about the Lightbound that their own sermon contridicts yet.
So, yes, from what we know of that situation on that planet … they very well could go with Yrel being manipulated through her prophetic visions. Because its those visions she’s advertising as the reason for her crusade. And that this supposed Light Mother (either a Prime Naaru, or some Light being of a higher tier) is deeply entwined with those prophecies. A being that Yrel (as a devout Light worshipper left to fumble her way through one of the worst superpowers imaginable to just be dumped on you) would be predisposed to putting her trust in. But none of this changes the fact that what she is doing is horrible.
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I agree with most of this. The legacy of the Iron Horde should be mentioned and more (perhaps even be one of the reasons behind the Lightbound’s campaign/holy war. None of Yrel’s actions - right and wrong - change or cancel out what she and her people went through at the Iron Horde’s hands).
I’m not sure what’s killing AU Draenor (I think the most likely explanation is alternate timeline degradation).
If Yrel demonstrably forgave the Mag’har and Grom personally for the Iron Horde and worked together with them to build a peaceful integrated society and then decided decades later to use that past as a justification for a holy war, that is really NOT a good look for her, so I for one really hope that’s not a thing. She doesn’t deserve to be forced in that direction as a person.
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True, though we don’t see Yrel demonstrably forgive the Mag’har and AU Grom for the Iron Horde, just as we don’t see AU Grom get punished for it. I think a sensible direction for the story would be;
The Draenei were sore over the Iron Horde and tried to keep the peace, but tensions existed, especially since AU Grom and other surviving Iron Horde members escaped punishment and the Ogres conditions under the Mag’har mirror the Draenei’s conditions under the Iron Horde (Yrel considering Grom a friend after everything he did is bad writing imo).
Between tensions and the still dangerous state of AU Draenor, the Draenei turned to the naaru for advice on how to move forward from, the naaru gave their “work together in the Light” pitch. The Draenei started evangelizing the Light, some Mag’har and others accepted, some refused and were left alone.
Then AU Draenor began to die and the breakers disappeared, both sides blaming each other “he said, she said” style. So the naaru got desperate and initiated the “join or die” part, with the faction attacking those who refuse and getting dubbed “Lightbound” by the Mag’har… leading to the point that’s seen in the Mag’har recruitment scenario.
Personally I prefer a version where the Light Mother, whatever it is, has deceived Yrel and the Lightbound into an unjust Holy War for its own ends. Given the whole “Freeze an entire city in time using Light Magic,” thing we see, I think the most likely truth behind Draenor dying is that the Light Mother and its minions are responsible, and that by using the Lightforging process to warp the minds of Yrel and her people and all those they’ve converted by force they’ve made it seem like Unity Under The Light is the only way to make things right again.
You don’t need to make the Light Mother’s motives nefarious for doing this, just inhuman and not in line with our vision of morality. Think the film version of I, Robot. The AI didn’t want to enslave all humans to hurt them, on the contrary it was intended entirely for their own good, it saw it as the only way to ensure the preservation of the species and ultimately fulfill the programming of the Three Laws of Robotics. I could see a similar motivation for some kind of Prime Naaru or other Higher Light Being to warp Yrel and her people into a warped mirror of the Army of Light and begin forcing others to convert.
There’s a lot of tragedy in the concept that the Draenei and Orcs of AU Draenor did what the Alliance and Horde have utterly failed to do, put aside their bloody past, forgave everything and built a utopian society together where two leaders who were once enemies became inseparable friends, only for a power beyond the stars to tear it apart for some ostensible greater good. Its the kind of tragedy that appeals to me, and the kind of tragedy that MIGHT make it possible for Yrel to come out the other side of the story alive, which I also desperately want.
That still sounds better than what we’ve seen in canon so far, the “sweep the Iron Horde under the rug… then Yrel and the AU Draenei become fanatics, thank god for villain-batting, time travel and alternate universes, otherwise we wouldn’t be able to do another Light dogmatism story.”
Both my and your ideas allow for Yrel to come out of this alive.
There is a problem though, one of several. I think it’s very likely we’re going to see some naaru raid bosses in the next expansion - Lu’ra the naaru got attack and death animations and I think it’s highly unlikely Blizzard will let this new Light Mother live, especially if she’s AU Xe’ra (look how they wasted her story in Legion) - but the way they’ve set the power level naaru may not be powerful enough for raid bosse (we all know how Xe’ra - a Prime Naaru - was jobbed by Illidan all “junkie smashes chandelier”), so how will they make a good boss fight out of naaru when they’ve made them look so weak?
I mean, we fought plenty of demons that we’ve beaten easily in other context in Legion. One dreadlord that was already wounded was a later raid boss, three Shivarrah, a couple of those winged Felhounds, and that’s just Antorus. I really don’t think relative powerlevel need be that big an immersion concern. We’ve fought Naaru as raid bosses before, we will again, and they’ll be stronger Naaru. Or new Light Beings that are even above them.
Honestly I don’t consider jobbing to Illidan to be that big a black mark on X’era, Illidan is fighting Sargaeras in a Trans-dimension UFC Cage Match for the next infinity years, dude’s a beast and always was. I bet X’era would have whipped our asses unless we brought 24 of our best bros with us.
This. The light isn’t cruel, or in any way intending harm with its heavy handed measures. I often associate the Light to an overbearing parental figure who tries to control your life because they “know what’s best for you”.
She had literally just came back from being effectively dead like five minutes prior too. And she oddly didn’t seem to actually attempt to defend herself. Like… even a novice priest can raise a holy barrier. You gonna tell me a prime naaru cannot?
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Perhaps. While the Shivarrah and felhounds we fought in Legion were the “best of the best” compared to the ones from previous expansions being more rank and file, you’ve got a point about Varimatharas. Plus those Shivarrah were drawing on the power of the imprisoned titans.
Illidan is powerful, but one-shotting Xe’ra - pure jobbing and broke suspension of disbelief since there didn’t seem to be mitigating reasons (I’ve heard some good fan theories, but it doesn’t look like the writers put in that much thought).
Even us and our 9 - 24 buddies needed help for some raid bosses (like Tirion and Terenas against Lich King Arthas, the Aspects against Deathwing, Khadgar, AU Grom and Yrel against Archimonde, Khadgar - again, Velen and Illidan against Kil’jaeden and especially the titans against Argus the Unmaker)
That makes it look like Blizzard is sending the message “rebel against authority” and “kill anyone who tries to rule you”. You may be right, but I don’t think Blizzard has thought through the implications of the story in that case.
It is the dynamic nature of Light and Void
Light is structure without freedom
Void is freedom without structure
We exist between both, so we are beings with a mixture of both structure, and freedom.
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Its Nietzsche dear boy. “God is dead, and we have killed him.”
Or rather “God WILL be dead, and we WILL kill him.”
Oh, that’s absolutely what it is. AU Draenor is dying due to that timeline degrading.
And it should be noted, there is another agenda I have here. Yes, it places both Yrel and Turalyon in antagonistic roles for a time. It manipulates their faith agianst them. But, there is a VERY important reason I’m leaving outs for them. Outs that don’t invalidate their crimes, but outs enough where they can survive to atone for them. Because in reality, I think the Lightbound are the only hope the AU Mag’har have of reclaiming what remains of whatever is left of their people. Just as the Lightbound will also save those AU Draenei. And that group, even if they show up as enemies to start, will be the last bastion of AU Refugees we are going to see. To bolster the AU Mag’har and MU Draenei ranks (for characters and populations). Including Yrel AND a very punished AU Grom.
EDIT: And again, a large draw for me in such a story isn’t JUST to give races like the VElves, AU Mag’har, and Forsaken chances to subvert expectations and show their capacity for heroism and grit. But also (perhaps more importantly) to settup that conflict of ideology between those FORGED by the Light (with Fareeya seeing massive development, after Turalyon is bound after having his Ner’zhul truth moment) … and those BOUND to it.
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However, when we look at things, there’s no evidence that the Lightbound are preserving the Mag’har laguage, animal husbandry, fighting style or anything else about Mag’har culture, and lots of evidence showing they’re actually replacing elements of Mag’har culture with Draenei/Lightbound stuff.
You haven’t really made any lore points to back up your claims. You just make claims you’d like to be true, I bring up the lore that shows your claims to be false-with links and pictures and text references and quotes to boot- and then you just move on to the next claim.
Case in point: there’s absolutely no evidence that Lightbound orcs are continuing to venerate Mag’har ancestors and the elements at the Auichodon. Actual in game quotes show that every time the Lightbound mention religion, it’s instead to praise the Light and convince others to embrace it as preached by Yrel as delivered to her by Xe’ra.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lightbound
And all this after you stated in another thread you started on this same topic where you stated that you were done trying to justify Yrel (leadig the Lightbound and acting on Xe’ra orders) on this.
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As for what punishment I think Gromm should have gotten? I think Gromm should have been imprisoned for life. Of course, being a long time consumer of genre fiction, I’m used to stories wherein villains (especially those jump ship like Gromm did) get imprisoned, only to later get recruited from jail to help fight common foes and end up transforming into anti-heroes/battle-forged allies instead. 30 years is more than enough time for a story like this to play out. Incidentally, such a story would mirror MU Gromm’s arc as someone who was once a villain, only to turn around some decade(s) since to pursue the path of an anti-hero/anti-villain path that ended up costing him his life so that a new generation of orcs can do better; all resulting in a very mixed legacy.
Or even better- since we're entertaining the idea of a rewrite for minor details- I would have had AU Gromm imprisoned for life and have him be one of the first orcs to get forcibly Lightbound. Xe'ra doesn't care if you were a villain before if you serve her purposes (see Illidan). I would have had AU Garrosh/Drakka/Durotan/Thrall be the leader of the Mag'har and the one that holds the line against the Lightbound and allows Greyah and the other orcs to escape to Azeroth.
But I get the feeling that you’ll have issues with either of those, as they don’t make an effort to absolve the Lightbound genocide by trying to make their campaign about the long gone Iron Horde. A thing that I thought you were done with.
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Additionally, all your examples of Light characters being antagonistic are all from Vanilla through Cataclysm. Over a decade ago. Like I said, Blizzard’s been shy about comitting to showing the Light/Alliance related characters as antagonistic for a while now. Xe’ra, the Scarlet Crusade, and Yrel are all coming back to explore a theme that’s been very much neglected for over a decade. And it’s the first time it’s ever relly ever shown potential to factor into the main story and not simply be treated as smaller/side plot points in a larger story.
Your worries that an expansion with Yrel and Turalyon as antagonists are going to end up portraying them as exceptionally unsalvageable villains that don’t get any screen time and then get unceremoniously bumped off isn’t fairly unfounded either. Not even by your own logic. You’ve been complaining this whole time about how Blizzard hasn’t killed off characters like Gromm or Illidan for their villiainous acts. And they’re really dragging their heels on Sylvanas. Clearly you don’t think Blizzard has a good track record of giving villains what they deserve, so I don’t know why you expect Yrel and Turalyon to get such swift and brutal punishment for their misdeeds. I doubt they’ll even end up dying. I’d expect AU Xe’ra to get the blame ad for Yrel and Turalyon to learn a special lesson.
This is also the perfect opportunity to play up characters like Anduin and Velen and other naaru as opposition and more positive representations of the Light.
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You keep complaining about the lack of Alliance antagonists when I’ve repeatedly said that’s not a problem for me, showing that’s where part of your desire and endorsement for Light villains comes from. We don’t need Light fanatics for Alliance bad guys; Genn, Tyrande and Moira to name a few seem like the type to go all vengeful (I’m surprised, but glad, Blizz didn’t villain bat Tyrande given how much her character got shafted by the writers from Cataclysm to Legion).
You haven’t made any lore points that back up your claim of the Draenei wiping out the Mag’har language or the fighting style (some use the Draenei’s fighting style with phalanxes, but they still have their scouts). I conceded your point that they lost animal husbandry, no need to go on about it, you’re just trying to rub it in at this point.
I brought up Auchindon as a theory, not what was actually happening… just like you theorize about AU Grom’s punishments, which you haven’t brought up any lore to prove happened. And there is no AU Thrall, the equivalent is Geya’rah.
My logic for why villain-batted Yrel and Turalyon will be one-dimensional villains who get killed off is because they’re not edgy. The writers seem to have a soft spot for edgy characters, and good guys turned fanatic apparently aren’t edgy by their standards.
Illidan and Sylvanas are prime examples of the edgy Blizzard likes, and Yrel and Turalyon don’t fit that mold; if anything, a villainous Yrel and Turalyon seem more like depictions of “The Man” that writers set up for their pet edgelords take down in the story.
On a side note, given how they jobbed AU Xe’ra to shill Illidan, how can we be expected to have a good boss fight with AU Xe’ra? I think we’re getting an AU Xe’ra boss fight, but I’d rather we make AU Xe’ra back down like we did to Algalon, but given how Blizz threw MU Xe’ra away, I dont’ they’ll do that. Again, how can we get a good boss fight from Xe’ra when Blizzard already made her look so weak storywise?
You were arguing that the Draenei preserved the Orcish language, though. Your original quote was, "…they even kept their language, animal husbandry and fighting style. They’re lacking a lot of the aspects of “cultural genocide”.
However, when we look at things, there’s no evidence that the Lightbound are preserving the Mag’har laguage. I’ve provided links showing not only the Lightboud units, but also their quotes, and none of them are speaking orcish.
Similarly, you continue to claim the Lightbound have maintained Mag’har fighting styles because “but they still have their scouts”. You don’t link any pictures of said scouts to support this statement. However, I’ve already (repeatedly) linked a list of all the Lightbound forces shown in the scenario, and none of them are scouts in the Mag’har style.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lightbound
Why would you even theorize Auichodon as an attempt of Lightbound are preserving Mag’har spirits when there’s ZERO reference to it in the scenario and zero evidence that this is happening? Your theory is completely baseless.
This is what Droite meant when they said you don’t back up your claims with lore.
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I didn’t theorize on what punishment Gromm received. I’ve repeatedly said we don’t know what Grom did that made Yrel come to consider him a friend. All we know is that something happened that made Yrel consider Gromm a friend.
I gave -at your specific request- a what-if scenario of how I think it should have happened.
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I know Alliance antagonists aren't a problem for you. The idea of Light based antagonists is the problem for you. That's why every single argument you make just circles right back around to, "Please don't have anyone following the Light be in the wrong anymore."
I too agree that Tyrande and Genn go on a roaring rampage of revenge that needed to be checked would have been a better follow up to the ending of BfA. However, I’m also not surprised they ended up giving them both outs. Because–again–Blizzard has become really iffy and gun shy about committing to Alliance antagonism without giving them some kind of out in the past decade or so.
The Warcraft franchise used to be about a flawed Horde and a flawed Alliance squabbling with one another, making them blind to the greater threats–which we the heroes faced. At some point, however, it became about the perfectly peaceful and unflawed Alliance sitting around and minding it’s own business until the Horde/Demons/Undead attack and everyone ultimately doing what Anduin tells them to do.
Which is why I don’t think a Yrel or Turalyon that gets strung along by Xe’ra are not likely to get offed as villains. Blizzard has left them too many outs in terms of showing us that Xe’ra misleads people and that they still encounter some conflict in their friendships with others. Plus, Xe’ra’s going to have an army of Lightbound/Scarlet Crusade/Other Azerothians to fight and serve as the big bad herself, and since she’s by far the edgiest Naaru (manipulating faith, genocide, and transmogrification is okay if the ends justify the means) you shouldn’t be worried about her either. I still expect Xe’ra to be a good boss fight though, because raid fights don’t care about power levels or any such nonsense.
What about Xe’ra, Yr’el and Turalyon do you think make them better representations of “The Man” that Blizzard would want to take them down as opposed to say Anduin, Velen, and the other naaru?
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I explained how the Mag’har and Lightbound not speaking an in-game language is a game mechanic for us, because going by their quotes, they aren’t speaking Draenei or Common either. Also note our Horde PC can understand what’s being said.
For some reason, my account won’t let me add weblinks so far, hence why I didn’t add them. I theorized about Auchindon because it was still functioning at the end of WoD, and there was the common element of preserving the spirits of their ancestors, even though the Draenei didn’t worship them.
You accused me in the past of not wanting to see the Alliance-villain batted, until I repeatedly told you that’s not the case. I also already explained that I can handle Light following antagonists – Scarlet Crusade, so stop strawmanning me. I think you’re the one fixated on wanting Alliance antagonists, lore and characterization be damned.
As for representations of “The Man”;
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It’s obvious how Xe’ra would represent “The Man”; she was a supernatural being that’s a control-freak and a high-ranking member of a religion’s higher power, and edgelords have problems with others telling them what to do. The Illidan killing Xe’ra cinematic was such subversive edgelord cringe, I wondered whether they hired Phillip Pullman or Garth Ennis to write it.
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Turalyon’s temporarily in charge of Stormwind now, and he was a general in the Army of the Light – that sounds like a candidate for “The Man” to me.
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Velen might have been a candidate for “The Man”, but given his poorly written crisis of faith (“a repressed prophecy I didn’t want to happen came to pass and a fel junkie I never met before criticized my life choices… maybe I shouldn’t follow the Light”), I’m concerned they’re about to go the apostate route with him.
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Anduin maybe, but I have no idea what they’re going to do with him in this expansion.
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As for other naaru, Xe’ra outranks all of them and I’ve already explained about her.