It made people think… now people can win games by simply overwhelming the opposition with more and more damage, blow all the ultimate abilities at once.
People don’t physically see the game changing moment, most characters do something different when they activate their ultimate ability. Whether it be pouring out damage or stunning multiple people with a crowd control effect. It is flashy and can be seen. It is tangible. It makes people go OMG WOW! Her ultimate is passive, it takes what she has been doing all match and amplified it slightly.
Remove the invulnerability during the cast time… the cast time is the window that she can be stunned or killed. That’s why people are arguing for her old ultimate with a cast time. This would reduce the overall power of her ultimate and allow them to place it elsewhere in her kit. The sky is the limit!!! Allow her to heal passively with no interruption while casting her ultimate. Damage reduction that can increase her survival rate while using her old ultimate. Look through the threads and you will see plenty of suggestions that would have taken power from her ultimate ability without changing it’s core function.
Because a decent sized group of people were against the changes at the start because they knew what was going to happen… she would be overpowered. They still pushed her to live and ignored the protest on their own forums. People are upset because they said if it didn’t work they would take a step back but they never did… they continued to jam a square peg into a round hole. Boom
Nerf. Boom
Another nerf. Boom
Still not in there… another nerf? Boom
They have done nothing but nerf every aspect of her kit with no compensation.
So the solution to falsely being lumped indiscriminately into a pile by Mercy main trolls is to falsely and indiscriminately lump all Mercy mains into a pile. You should be able to see why I am confused by this behavior when the courtesy of acknowledging peoples natural tendencies to respond in kind are only afforded to one group and not the other. Trolls exist everywhere but by far and away I’ve seen more trolling of Mercy mains by non-Mercys than Mercys towards non-Mercys for the majority of the Mercy megathread before it started getting shutdown by flagging. Once it became clear that even having an empty trash pit we were discarded into to discuss it was apparently asking too much, and when it became clear people wanted to prevent Mercys from having a place to talk, thats when a lot of them started posting in the forums and making new threads. Doesn’t make it right, but it’s extremely understandable.
Anybody who has a differing opinion against the Mass Rez outside of the “git gud and get over it boosted scrub” and “ez no mechanical skill, learn a new hero but not in my games” and “no aim, no brian, Mercy main” stereotype echo chamber in these forums is usually only met with mass flagging, dogpiling, and name calling. More often than not the most vocal of the anti-Mercys resort to fallacies and ban baiting when there talking points are challenged. But this is OK, and its not OK when its the other way around?
I’ll give you the same response a non-Mercy player gave me. You can judge if its giving due diligence to discuss the point. You can also see my post before hand if you are so inclined.
Honestly it doesn’t matter if she was overpowered or not at first. The fact they changed it to appease the actual majority and not the vocal minority was a great decision, and opened up her playstyle much more. The problem came about when she was clearly to powerful, but every time they tweaked her Mercy mains would throw another fit in the forums. Eventually you just stop touching that hero
I suppose if you fail to include the entire rework of momentum in overwatch that gave mercy the ability to fly, created the bug that allowed her to bunny hop which eventually got turned into a feature, and increased her survivability which she desperately needed, yeah no compensation whats so ever.
Is it really false when you actually did it though? As well encouraged others who actively do it like OP and the person who I was actually replying too with your quote specifically.
It really doesn’t matter how most players are. The fact of the matter is, most players are bad. The game should be balanced around the best players, and at the time in masters-top 500, considerable the best mercy players, this was the majority of Mercy mains:
Now your true colors are showing. You in fact don’t want a discussion. You want anyone who doesn’t agree with the rework to accept your stance and sit down quietly.
Personally, I agree. With that being said, I understand why they did it. At the time, temp ressing was nearly unheard of for how little play time mercy actually got in high elo. The most common mercy mains people saw was those exploiting the sr system at the time.
If that’s what you got out of that, then i have to give you props for those mental gymnastics.
They knew of what seems to be a bug and instead of facing it head on, decided to scrap a whole hero concept. Their intention of removing “Hide n Res” was sound but the execution was revolting and I can not possibly understand why they’d go to an ultimate concept that was scrapped during the beta for a reason.
I still don’t see any point where you’ve addressed this fact. Point is, there are shifting standards to delegitimize and create strawmen arguments to a LOT of people’s posts on this forum. Titanium and I disagree on plenty, but one thing I always respect is that the contents of those posts are always explained, stick to consistent logic, and often reference sources or simple logic to rationalize the stance. In response to that, I’m accustomed to seeing people throw trite pettiness, select out of context literalism intended to twist statements, and recycled attacks on perceived lack of skill to attempt to shut down or discredit a large portion of those posts.
Titanium has a list of copy/paste responses to the exact same points that keep getting posted. It’s usually met with snark for having prepared copy/paste posts ready for the inevitable same fallacies that keep being posted in rebuttal. That being a perfect example of the above mentioned shifting standards and attempts to delegitimize the content of the post. I see significantly less of that when Titanium posts a link to another thread. The content didn’t change, but the method of delivery did. That shouldn’t matter, but it apparently does; that being an objective observation that to some people it clearly does matter and posts are a lesser response if it doesn’t meet their standards regardless of content. Based on that trend, it is perfectly understandable why someone would chose to do the same by creating their own thread to reference back to; especially when it’s someone who has seen the treatment afforded to Titanium on many well laid out posts.
This is straightforward logic. Nothing about it says I agree or disagree with doing so, but feel free to point out where I said I agree the OP needed to make their own topic. I simply understand the reasoning even if I disagree with it, pointed out tersely the context behind my reasoning, and simply said “apparently that makes the answer yes”.
You completely ignored the part where the main thread for Mercy discussion keeps getting deliberately shut down to prevent discussion in it. I’m sure you have some choice words about how that’s not OK for people to actively shut down places for discussion to keep it from spilling over into 50 new topics a day, so I’d love to see acknowledgement of that assuming you do in fact actually want a discussion in an appropriate place.
You also actively ignored the fact that it was metaphorical speech and instead used selective literal interpretation to make the claim I’m treating this like a competition. That is kind of exactly what I’m talking about in regards to not wanting an actual discussion, and thus the respective response in kind.
There are no mental gymnastics here. Simply following the logical path of discussion based on context and not selectively interpreting things to turn it into the response I want in order to turn it back at you. I’m giving you the benefit of taking your statements and interpreting them based on context. It is polite to return the same consideration if in fact you actually want to discuss something. Else, if one party is attempting and the other is not, it’s not a discussion; it’s fruitlessly talking at someone.
So, I’ll take the lack of response as a “no”.
Also still looking for a response to this.
I’m also ignoring the fact that there is a significant correlation in the context of posters comments and the complete lack of a direct response to the feedback from any developers. There were random threads that brought up Mercy ablance outside of the mega thread that got Dev responses, but the mega thread where most Mercy mains remained got nothing. That type of thing encourages not keeping the discussion to the designated location and considering and treating it like an ignored dumping ground void pit. Other reworks got at least developer commentary, interviews, or responses somewhere acknowledging the subject matter and concerns in the forums about those reworks. Mercy feedback far exceeding the post count of others, and her state post rework had far longer lasting negative balance impact on far more of the game than the others, yet the only reference to feedback given so far was completely contradictory to the majority opinions within the feedback thread. I mean, if you want to tackle that, then go for it.
I think you’d find a significant agreement from Mercy mains that if a dev posted even once in the feedback thread with some semblance of acknowledging the content of the extensive number of posts regarding the rework, it would have satiated a TON of the Mercy discontent and prevented a lot of overflow into the forums.
In fact, it’d be interesting to see how many Mercy mains would have been satisfied to stay in the mega thread if a developer had even once posted in there. Here, I’ll even make a mock non-committal Blizzard style post we could pretend was from them. I wonder how many Mercy mains would accept this and stay in the mega thread? (Of course assuming it was not locked by flags daily and only able to be posted in for maybe a couple minutes a day.)
We understand you are concerned with the experience and impact of the hero Mercy in her current form. We wanted to say that we do see and recognize your concerns. We have further plans for her but as with all changes they require time and testing to ensure they are in line with out goals and vision for Mercy. Our primary goal is to give attention where it is most needed, so these changes may not appear in the time frame many folks may be hoping for. We will come back to this topic and address it as there are further developments that we are satisfied with and when we are comfortable implementing them into the game. In the mean time, we ask you continue to post feedback in this thread to consolidate the feedback into one location, and appreciate your continued patience.
I dont know of any mercy players that enjoy the First few reworks. Most of them blame Overwatch league. I think they could have easily fixed a couple things with mass rez and boosted the healing output of the other Healing classes if they wanted to solve their issue. The rework didn’t help.
Well, tbf, they tend to go back on their words here and there.
Deathmatch wasnt supposed to be implemented, D.va was supposed to be a DM.bot or whatever, and Tracer getting a nerf cuz she was the epitome of balance.
See, here’s the thing. You say I never addressed that, then the next thing you quote from me is exactly that. Me addressing it.
Also, what fact? That the vocal minority want to be vocal and make multiple threads all saying the same thing they could have said as a reply in an already made thread. What would you like me to address about this fact that I haven’t already said?
Titanium also does a wonderful job of creating fallacies in many of those responses, with obscured facts that reference them self. Again, you really need to find a different manifesto.
I’ve been up and down with most of their talking points. You can read the discussions yourself. How about instead of depending on somebody else’s poor copy paste arguments that have been proven wrong, try having an genuine discussion with somebody. I use you in the general sense here, for the record.
You sure we’re talking about the same person?
Probably because they’re a ban baiter. Even you are putting them on a pedestal right now. If you disagree with them, they will riddle you with fallacies and the large following of mercy mains they have mass false flag anyone with a differing opinion. Honestly, those threads are echo chambers.
This is actually just circular logic.
Person won’t listen to a direct reply
Make thread that replies to their talking points indirectly
People still don’t listen and more think it’s ridiculous
But because the thread had to be made means that original person wasn’t listening to begin with.
Because the person wasn’t listening, the thread had to be made
repeat.
Straightforward logic would be along the lines of, if this person is genuinely trying to have a discussion, continue replying to them directly in that thread. If the person seems like a troll, don’t bother with them.
Or recognize
About this, actually. Has anyone actually said who is legitimately doing it? The familiar suspects keep saying trolls report the thread and it gets closed. But which trolls and why? With the mega thread, there is a lot less Mercy talking points that have been discussed to death a million times clogging up the front page and the forums in general. Meanwhile, I remember vividly how much certain people wanted the mercy mega thread gone so they could be heard again as they thought the mega thread was a void that gets ignored… which, it probably was but that’s besides the point.
If that’s truly the case, my apologizes. However,
tells a very different story.
No, this is you doing some of the following:
See. I pointed out a flaw in your logic, how you’ve created an us vs them mindset to justify spamming the forums with threads like this and titanium’s. You immediately attack one sentence in that entire paragraph where I fully admit i pointed this out, and then you completely ignored the rest of that paragraph. Even going on to say I didn’t address the points that very same paragraph addressed.
You fooled me.
You sure?
I completely agree.
If you choose to ignore it, thats on you. It’s no wonder you think people aren’t listening to your replies so you need to make new threads indirectly replying to those very same people and get validation from likeminded people who agree with you. You just completely ignore them to begin with. You are actually projecting right now.
Just so you can’t say I didn’t address this.
How about instead of depending on somebody else’s poor copy paste arguments that have been proven wrong, try having an genuine discussion with somebody.
The majority never asked for a re-work, yes there was an SR exploit… there will always be an exploit when rank is given based on stats. People tend to find out which stat is most important and inflate that stat to gain more rank. They chose to re-work a entire character instead of changing the rank system, they changed the rank system after the train wreck re-work was released.
People didn’t ask for a re-work… I feel like that is the part you fail to see. A good portion of the community warned them that their re-work was going to break the game… they didn’t do any internal testing to see what their re-work was going to do to the game as a whole. That’s painfully obvious, as obvious as the unstoppable Bastion update they pushed to live.
I never said they did. However, the majority did want something done about mass res. The rework was the result of that.
Wait did they really? I don’t remember that. I just remember them getting rid of personal performance based sr in diamond and above so things like that didn’t happen again.
If you do want to rally for a rework of the ranking system, I’m right there with you. Competitive is a mess.
No i have made it abundantly clear that people wanted something done with mass res, not that people wanted a rework. You can continue beating on this strawman but the fact remains.
Edit: In fact, I’ve even gone into detail about my position in this very thread.
I even liked the exact same comment you did
So not sure why you felt the need to reply to me with a strawman.
Wait… What about Titanium’s post you’ve included is a “fallacy?” If we look into the context, it sounds like they were dispelling your own fallacies with Mercy.
While some of these are true (for example best healing average). A lot of your other points are simply incorrect:
“An ultimate that makes everything she’s the best at better.”
Have you ever tried to res while in valkyrie? It’s certainly not better. It’s worse…
Guardian Angel is also situational. If you have no team mates to GA to, would you say that she still has the “best utility and escape?” I certainly wouldn’t. Moira on the other hand can use her Fade at any time, the moment it’s cool-down resets. I would argue that that has a lot more utility, as it’s not dependent on team mates in order to function.
Wait… Do you know how the devs feel? Do you have documented proof of them making a statement that they actually “worry about more backlash from mercy mains?” What makes you believe that this “Mass res movement” only exists in the forums? Have you checked every part of the internet to make such a claim? What makes Titanium a “manifesto?” Have you not seen the thousands of posts people have made in the 10+ Mercy megathreads? A lot of what they mention with mercy references ideas from other people as well, so how would that qualify them as being a “manifesto?” Otherwise, your post is merely subjective claims, are they not?
I mean, if we’re going to talk about fallacies and self-referenced obscure facts, It would probably be a good idea to make sure that you’re not making subjective opinions as if they are fact either, first and foremost.
~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance. xavvypls
Did you not bother to read the 3 posts I linked where i had discussions with them? albeit, in other peoples threads. No of course you didn’t.
Though, if you want me to comment on their newest thread specifically, right away their first argument is opinion.
Even as an opinion it doesn’t hold much ground as now Mercy still has her “overpowered” resurrect, yet she’s not a must pick anymore. You can already argue that resurrection as it has been is fine.
Their hole write up about resurrect is an argument based on personal opinion.
Their first actual source on the matter:
They use a false attribution fallacy. What Titanium quoted specifically is out of context. Had they left in the context:
“We tried to move Resurrection to a secondary ability, and the ability, right now, in current Overwatch, isn’t playing out as a secondary ability; it’s playing out like another ultimate ability in combination with valkery which is extremely powerful. So mercy needs to be toned down.
My favorite part is next:
I know there are a lot of Mercy mains. Mercy is by far the most played hero in the game, um, and the community is absolutely vocal. We know how much you love this hero. If we tone her down too much, we will bring her back.
Mercy was still clearly overpowered after that patch, and was still a must pick:
but of course, you cant please the unpleasable. Mercy was still in a great spot and yet their was even more backlash from Mercy mains.
Should I continue?
Comparative to mass res, yeah it’s not as good. I’m glad you took that quote out of context specifically to try and compare it to something it wans’t intended to be compared to. With that being said, it does make everything she’s the best at… or at least was the best at, at the time, even better.
Her regen was unstoppable - better.
Chain healing increases her already the best at the time healing average - even better.
Aoe damage boost - better.
Guardian Angel’s range is extended. - better.
Mercy’s healing beam is extended. - better.
Her overall move speed increases. - better.
For one, escape’s are not utility, so no I wouldn’t consider GA best utility. Utility is something that’s beneficial to the team. With that out of the way, I would say that an ability that brings you 30m+bunny hop is better than one that brings you 15m. I would say an ability that takes you multi-directional is better than one that doesn’t. I would say an ability that guarantee’s you be placed in a 2 v 1 situation is better. I would say an ability on 1.5 seconds is better than ability on 6 seconds.
If you consider an ability that depends on your team, bad, in a team based fps? I’m sorry, but I just don’t share that opinion. The only perceivable way this is a downside, is if your teams bad, in which case you were never going to win anyway. You were severely out of position, in which case you should be punished, as every other hero can be, including flankers. Even one of tracers blink charges is on a 3 second cool down. Or your team’s been wiped and your the last one alive which happened to be the go to strategy playing around Mercy because her mobility was so ridiculous that it was better to kill off her team than play cat and mouse with her.
And before you even try and make a gotchu argument out of this by taking these quotes out of context. I’m actually glad she has that mobility, it’s her means of survival and she needs it. I am actually tired of people trying to downplay it though.
I know there are a lot of Mercy mains. Mercy is by far the most played hero in the game, um, and the community is absolutely vocal. We know how much you love this hero. If we tone her down too much, we will bring her back.
Seems they already know their will be a Vocal community who loves this hero So much so they need to reassure they’re Keeping an eye on her and will bring her back.
Funny enough a few of these are talking points that were said in multiple dev updates either in video or on the forums, and even then it was used as fodder against the devs.
I can tell you right now reddit seemingly has a much larger overwatch community than people who participate in these forums. Mostly because they know these forums are an echo chamber. The popular opinion is pretty clear there, on r/overwatch and r/competitive overwatch, mercy is in a better spot now than she was with mass res. People just want to see her balanced for the most part.
This thread was posted like 10 days ago. I actually just googled mass res reddit.
You actually just took a play from their book and made a thread to reply to a person so you could gain more visibility in a reply to said person from like minded people.
Even this person caught it. Then you go on to defend Titanium’s thread while it’s riddled with fallacies and inaccuracies, but you don’t care to actually pay attention to those because they agree with your viewpoint for the most part.
Perhaps there was some slight hyperbole initially, but it’s actually scary how it becomes more apparent as this thread went on.
See, the difference here is I never actually once stated it was fact, or even presented it as such. What I did say:
In response to somebody who’s defending your use of titanium’s methods, with the defense that it works when titanium does it, which, it really doesn’t even then.
God this is pretentious.
That’s fair. I agreed with this part rather than the whole.
My understanding of why they did it comes from
I linked your comment in response to somebody else. I’m sorry if you thought I was saying that part to you directly.
![:sparkling_heart:](https://d74zh8edaijub.cloudfront.net/en/overwatch/images/emoji/twitter/sparkling_heart.png?v=5" ":sparkling_heart:")
![:two_hearts:](https://d74zh8edaijub.cloudfront.net/en/overwatch/images/emoji/twitter/two_hearts.png?v=5" ":two_hearts:")
