And nowhere do I see any proof of what you’re saying… soo
It has not been revealed exactly what kind of system is used in Heroes of the Storm, but several comments from developers suggest that the Matchmaking Rating in Heroes of the Storm likely uses the same principles as more publicly known rating systems, like TrueSkill and GLICKO. That is, calculating the changes in players’ ratings is based on the skill differences between the two teams, and using a confidence value to describe a player’s MMR.
Rank Points are directly mapped to certain MMR bands, meaning that for most purposes Rank Points are the same as MMR, and can only diverge if one has recently been affected by a leaver penalty.
The mapping is not, however, completely linear, especially as seen in Bronze 5, where players receive notably less Rank Points the closer they are to 0. This is mainly due to the MMR range for Bronze 5 being much wider compared to other ranks, and this wider area being “squeezed” within just 1000 Rank Points.
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A teeny-tiny bit, but just.
You can have a fancier winrate, however as soon as your skill matches your rank, you cap out. Given the +50 you still climb a little, until your winrate drops enough.
On top of it, after every single leave you’d have to win three somethings. So, six matches on average. Thus it gets expensive.
I also have a sneaking suspicion you don’t get all 500 points back. It always felt shorter than 10 matches. And even if, it would likely not stack. So you only abuse the first paragraph scenario.
So, all in all, the original plan of finding four like minded people to just lose so much in a row is the quickest. If you go crazy streak your MMR loosens anyway to (streak-12) * 50, and unless too obvious, you won’t get reported either. Although there will be a point where you’d get randomly into a match where the enemy is in such a disarray that you just autowin unless you all go completely zero on stat screen and then still hope the minion pingpong is against you.
While it does say the mmr = rank, some of the phrasing leads to ambiguities that don’t readily align with player experience. There are draft lobbies were the highest “rank” is not the one banning, despite the assertion that rank = mmr. Since players that aren’t the highest visual are in the ban phase, people have attributed the disparity to decay and leaver penalties not having the same impact on mmr as shown by ranked points.
It’s not ‘proof’, but some have interpreted the banner not being highest rank/mmr as an example that the two values can still be different, esp since it wasn’t stated how penalties affect mmr.
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To be direct: you don’t. You make a new account or get smurfs to carry you out.
Reason why? For every 1 game where you do well, you’ll have 2 where your team drags you down or the opponent’s team has smurfs. Bronze 5 isn’t BAD it’s just that you run into smurfs, stacks and potatoes.
It’s rare that your B5 team is so bad that they actually deserve B5. It’s just bad match making that encourages smurfing. And even then, if you have an old account, the MM tries to screw you over by deducting more ranked points than you gain for losses/wins respectively.
Can you prove that’s the case? Because in my 4 years of playing that’s always been the case.
Maybe the rule that the highest MMR/Rank player doesn’t always ban. That’s what I think would be happening in those cases. Even then I don’t see how the highest MMR/rank player not banning would mean that the two values aren’t the same. However, I’ve never experienced it so I don’t know. I would imagine those cases are extremely rare and don’t attest to how the system works because of the fact that they’re such rare occurrences.
What we do know is this, Rank points are directly related to MMR based on the changes the devs stated they made to SL. Based on that, if you lose rank points, your MMR will drop as well temporarily since they’re essentially the same thing.
Source and date?
The devblog says that the highest ranked player bans for their side. If rank = mmr, that would mean that the player with the highest mmr bans. If the visibly highest ranked player is not the one banning then:
- ranked points and mmr can deviate (likely from penalties, even if only temporary*)
- it means highest attained rank, not highest current (I don’t recall any topics considering this option, so maybe easy solution for some oversight there)
- party mmr gimmicks somehow affecting it (have my doubts on this one)
Iirc, I’ve seen a few cases firsthand where I’ve been the one banning without having the highest rank (not about to sort through thousands of replays to find an example as I didn’t rename any to highlight that) I didn’t keep up on playing SL and would decay out of diamond, so I’ve assumed my decay created a gap in my mmr and rank, even if only temporarily. Outside of my faulty speculation/recollection, other posters have made topics to ask why the highest rank wasn’t banning in their games
e.g.
however, those are older examples, so perhaps the system got better at keeping mmr/rank stable. Eanked isn’t my jam, so I don’t track topics about that as well as I did years before.
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A source would be nice.
IT depends on when the devblog was written, which I don’t know where you’re even getting that information so a source for that would be nice.
As far as the links you posted from other threads, one was created August 4th, which isn’t applicable to this situation because the changes were made August 6th. The other, Minky’s was created after August 6th, so it very well could just be a hiccup. Its not improbable for it to be a screw up with the system. So really, neither of these examples prove anything, especially since there are no blue posts saying otherwise. Besides that, it doesn’t seem to happen very often because as long as I can remember no one who was a lower visual rank would ever ban, but that’s just my experience with over 2300 SL games played from 2018-2022
Show that source and date of when the devblog states that the highest MMR player bans and then we can talk. Assuming something is the way it is with no proof is just that, an assumption.
You’re going way overboard with ma proof. I get that in order for you to acknowledge/accept of being wrong, you want proof for it. But mind as well call other people, liers, unless proven otherwise, the way you’re going on right now, dismissing any anecdotes, personal experiences.
They can provide you with link or they could not. But, more other way around, the pov of the question should be. A question to you, ‘who should be banning/which player is banning?’ ‘Random’ is a nonsense answer. It’s either highest rank or highest MMR. Highest rank is out of the question from other’s experience (unless you really want to call them, liers), that alone makes it ‘rank =/= mmr’, not necessarily in specific cases (unless of course ‘random’ player bans). Only leftover, most probable answer is ‘highest mmr’.
To expand, you can argue ‘duo/multiple que leader is banning’, ‘solo que player bans over multiple que group’, but those are easy to prove, disprove so.
I’m seeing a lot of wrong things said in this thread. Here’s how it actually works.
Highest visible rank player always bans, unless all 5 players are still in placements in which case it’s highest hidden MMR.
If you dodge a game it only lowers your visible Rank Points and does not affect your MMR. The -500 penalty stacks infinitely. If you do placements for a new season your whole leaver pool from the past season is earned back, any you didn’t already earn back, because you place according to MMR. I know this because I tested it recently. I had a gold MMR account that I dodged all the way down to Bronze 4 on (playing a lot of leaver games). It was still getting gold games and after new season placements it placed gold. I did the same thing again next season, winning a lot but dodging a lot so it stayed gold while getting diamond games and then placed diamond the following season (this one).
By the way placement games are just normal ranked games. You just move the usual ±200 (500 or more if you took a long time off the game, around a month, or if you’re on a long win or loss streak) from your MMR at the end of the previous season.
Rank decay (that thing that happens in diamond+ if inactive) only affects placed accounts at that rank and only if your visible rank is that high. Also it is both rank and MMR decay except there’s a bug where it doesn’t become real until you play a game post decay (and that game will happen at the new decayed rank too).
So you can decay from high Master to D5 and it’s wiped away next season with placements so long as you don’t play any games after decay because if you play even 1 then it’s tied to the rank at the time of that game decay included.
However back to dodging, the matchmaker considers both rank and MMR at least on major regions (the NA, EU, and probably KR servers). On all other servers it only tries to average MMR but on major servers it both tries to average MMR for each team AND restrict players from matching together if they are too far apart in rank. If all players were solo they would generally find games only with people within 2 rank divisions of each other. After a very long time in queue (possibly an hour or more) then within 4 rank divisions. For Master it’s slightly more tolerant I think.
When parties are involved it’s more complicated, I think the 2 or 4 division thing applies beyond either end of the lowest and highest rank person of the party on your team.
Point is, if you dodge too many games it eventually becomes almost impossible to find games on the major servers (can only match with other pathological dodgers or high rank spread parties) unless you yourself play in a party.
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I’m not going overboard. I posted patch notes of what they changed about SL and I’m being told I’m wrong based on hearsay. There are references to other threads which don’t prove what I’m saying is wrong, absolutely no sources indicating what I’m saying is wrong or what other are saying is right. I mean that’s kind of how these debates go otherwise I could say whatever I want and say its correct just because I say it. Get out of here with that.
This part specifically. I have 2300 personal experiences of what I’m saying is right. I’m not dismissing those. I don’t know what your problem is… but usually if someone asks for proof and the other person doesn’t have it, when they’ve specifically referenced it (devnotes) yet don’t share it… breaks your credibility.
Good god I already explained this. One instance that was shared does not even apply to this situation because of the fact that the thread was posted 2 days before the changes were made. The second (and as far as I know, only instance) where it happened was posted within the same month, which could also mean that its just an abnormality and isn’t the norm. But of course its dismissed because you want to push that your way of thinking is correct based off a very small number of cases. You know what we call these cases in statistics? Outliers and they are insignificant because they do not represent the vast majority.
And since no one here has anything besides hearsay examples, I have no reason to believe what you are saying is true. Burden of proof is on you, because in the patch notes it says that the MMR and ranked are directly related, meaning as one goes up, the other goes up as well… they’re connected.
Here’s another piece of information:
Note : Leaving a Ranked Draft Lobby or Ranked Match results in a 500 Skill Point penalty. You will slowly redeem points lost due to a penalty if you win several matches.
Here they used the term skill point, isn’t skill referring to MMR, and point referring to Rank… I mean that’s what anyone could guess right? Funny… its almost like they are the same.
Read again. Your debate with other players is your business, not mine. Don’t lash it on me. I’ll just leave it at that.
It’s a program code for crying out loud. Abnormality or anomaly can happen from outside electrical interference or something, but that is surely not what others experienced (not a one time occurrence blah blah blah). It is programmed to do what it tells it to do, not having some hiccups, not a case like observing natural phenomenon, having human errors. Being not the norm, not representing the vast majority matters not one bit (leaver penalty and close observation after is rare to begin with). We’re trying to find specifically set rule here.
Hence comes my question to you.
Process of elimination is a thing you know. If we can believe what others experienced (cases of most high rank not banning), we can deduct close enough answer. That’s what I’m/I was saying.
It leads to, represented rank may not always equal mmr, rank != mmr in some cases.
To elaborate, as it has some jumps. When it comes to banning,
- Highest rank
- Highest MMR
- Multi-que group leader
- Solo que top
- Whatever
1 is out, 3, 4, 5 are likely out as well (not hard to prove/disprove). That leaves 2. Higest MMR player does the ban. And in some cases, highest rank shown =/= highest MMR (← if highest MMR does the ban, and highest rank is not banning). Conclusion goes to what I said above.
Quote from the dev could be nice, but not necessarily needed when you can deduct something. You can lay out some outlandish opposing theory, but I didn’t include them because Blizz has no reason to implement it like that.
Exactly its not perfect, which means those instances stated by others could simply be a hiccup from the system, instead you’re saying because a few cases demonstrated that rank is unequal to MMR, there are many instances that say the opposite… so settling on the fact that a few instances determine how the system works as a whole is just stupid. Since when to statistical anaylists say “oh this happened a few times only it must be the way it works! Eureka!” You sound so silly trying to defend that stance. And we have nothing else to go by instead of the posts I said, which state MMR is the rank.
Its been stated that the highest rank player bans. However there are two things that could have happened
- the highest ranked player doesn’t always ban, for whatever reason.
- the highest ranked player does ban, but in those small cases there was an abnormality.
You have no proof that it works any other way, and you have no proof that Rank points and MMR are not the same thing. I however do, because the devs stated it in the two sources I gave.
Until you have proof that what you are saying is true, I have no reason to believe you.
Usually proof doesn’t matter since things can be proved by testing them in game, but the devs told us what they changed and you want to believe it works the way it does because you say it does, which is arrogance. The only other way to test them in game is to intentionally quit drafts until your rank drops a good amount and see if you still ban games even if everyone is ranked higher than you. Until you can prove that, I’m done talking with you about this specific topic. Your argument has no ground to stand on since they’re such rare occurrences and you have no proof from the devs on how this works, therefore, your assumptions on it don’t matter.
People generalize statements all the time. You’re taking it literally in literally way. That is a better explanation (dev generalizing) than what you’re suggesting with,
Bug or unintended interaction can happen. Those are not hiccups though. They’re programmed not in an intended way, but will always reproduce the same result given the same input, circumstance. Hiccups tend to happen to program/computer when there is some electromagnetic interference, whether intended or from natural occurrence. Then, it becomes random. Judging from the anecdotes from other players, that does not seemed to be the case, but an intended program interaction edit: crap could be confusing word choice there. ‘programmed to do so, whether intended or not’. That leads to my previous post.
You already linked it.
- A Team Leader (banning player in Ranked Draft) is selected on the highest Rank for placed players, or MMR for unplaced ones. In mixed teams, placed players have priority.
I can’t do much about you not reading it through 
August 6 is when the notes went live. Storm League was added in July
that’s why the topic was made using information from the patchnotes.
edit clarification: some of the phrasing people have used stems from Storm League Bronze 5 Update — Heroes of the Storm — Blizzard News
With the changes introduced this season, rank is always updated by taking the change in rating and determining the equivalent number of rank points to reward. This leaves very few ways rating and rank can diverge
Prior to storm league, or rather, when promotion/demotion matches were used in ranked, it was common for visible rank and matching rating to deviate. With the removal of the promotion gating, it removes what has typically been the most egregious, but not only, source of deviation. In the bronze 5 update, it says there are “very few ways rating and rank diverge” when indicate they still can diverge. (I paraphrased that in a previous post)
While the question regarding “Team leader” banning seems based on the stormleague patch notes, some players understood/thought that that was already the case: highest mmr bans. So the highlight in the stormleague live notes doesn’t seem like it actually made a change, but rather clarifies that the means by which visible and hidden mmr deviate.
While you might assert that this must be ‘very rare’, I’d be more inclined to consider that people either don’t know to notice, or don’t care when it happens. People have expressed that it does happen, but – especially at this point – people aren’t going to rummage through replays to post screencaps to confirm when it happens, esp if they’ve been playing through the ranked transition and just assume the deviation is the norm for them.
Come more often.
Thanks for the clarifications.
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Well, now that’s some real dedication to science. What was that, 200’ish leaver games to clear? Xd
That does give pretty much 100% certainty that the hypothesis of leaver penalty not affecting internal mmr is correct.
MMR is still equal to rank points. The only thing is whether you are placed or unplaced determines whether its shown or not. Whenever you do placement matches, you end up where you left off last season, meaning your MMR is still the same as your rank.
Still idk why you insist that because it happened a few times you think it determines the way it works. It doesn’t mean that players who aren’t the highest ranked can ban. It just means there was an anomaly stopping something from working correctly. Technology isn’t perfect.
If I were to end at silver 5 this season, I won’t place in high gold next time, why? Because MMR and Rank is the same thing. It doesn’t take a genius to figure that out.
No, it means they went on here and typed whatever they wanted. I don’t see any proof of those claims… do you?
I’ll do it myself I guess.
You see, this is the biggest issue with your pov from the beginning as I’ve noticed.
When people say ‘technology isn’t perfect’, it’s not how you mean it. Technology isn’t perfect because it is made by humans who can’t predict every variables to react to every situation. Humans make mistakes as well. It leads to incident such as chest playing machine breaking/damaging a Chinese kid’s finger, which a human would never do intentionally (unless sociopathic). That, ‘technology isn’t perfect’.
I already explained how hiccups in machines can happen. What you’re basically saying is, 'I will lift my left arm sometimes when I signal my brain to lift my right arm because humans aren’t perfect’. Assuming you’re not drunk, high, very old, have some kind of neurological disorder, this is almost close to never happening.
First off, you don’t know how often it happenes. ‘Few times’, only because that much of a leaver penalty stack rarely happens, and players generally don’t pay attention to banner’s rank.
If it happenes, it is happening only because it is programmed that way (like, 99.9% of the time). Even ‘few times’ is way too many for it to be some anomaly. It means it’s a pattern, rule set specifically to work that way. And at least according to some players’ anecdotes, that pattern seems to be from leaver penalty points stack.
So,
to this.
And that blank seems to be ‘leaver penalty points’ as I mentioned above.
From this, the only (I think) way you can overturn this is by claiming, and proving, ‘highest rank always bans in the game’. That will nullify other people’s anecdotes.
You realize the patch notes were from 3 years ago right? As well as the posts from other users here. You do see that right? It was an issue back then… but if it was anything other than an abnormality, glitch, anomaly, etc… it would still occur today, but there aren’t any recent threads about it besides this one. The issue they were having probably fixed itself or literally happened due to a glitch. There’s still no concrete proof that penalty doesn’t drop MMR as well as Rank since they’re’ linked to each other. There’s a quote from someone who states its true, but without evidence its moot.
This isn’t what I am saying at all. I’m not saying the system decides to negate a rule set by its programming on its own… I am saying there’s something else causing the issue that the programming doesn’t even know is going on. So more accurately, “I will lift my left arm but sometimes my arm pops when I do”.
2 recorded instances of this happening vs the hundreds of thousand games being played is in fact an anomaly and an outlier. Its simple math. Has anyone had this occur after 2019? I doubt it. Its funny how the issue only seemed to be there for a short period after the initial change and then no one talks about it afterwards…
True, but the only way you can prove its the way it is to do the same, so start dodging. Until then… MMR=rank. Highest rank bans. The two instances where that rule was broken is most likely a glitch or abnormality since it clearly breaks the rules and there’s no concrete proof that lost points due to penalty doesn’t affect the MMR directly linked to Rank points.