How do you get to Bronze 5?

General Discussion
62

That is not how program code works.

True. But as I said, you’re ignoring the part where this is a very fringe, rare situation to begin with. Who dodges during draft that many times? Of the people that do, how many of them pay attention to who’s banning, the rank, compare ban-er’s to theirs?

That is the reason you don’t see threads or players talking about it. Heck, this topic even came up out of nowhere, not related to the OP. Less to do with this being some glitch.

Because there is little reason to bring this up, moreso when people experiencing are so few, weren’t even paying attention.

Sorry, had to mention again, “survivorship bias”. 2 recorded instances do not maketh the only instances occurth. 2 recorded instances are even the evidence you’re claiming there is without.

i’ll add from the above, + out of all those players, who would decide to record their observation?

Then it wouldn’t be a pattern. Programming =/= dev or programmer. Devs might not have intended it, but program has no intention, just process what is written.

good question regardless.

Still don’t think it warrants you getting out of your way to do it unless you’re that curious.

That’s why I said at the start, ‘mind as well call other players, liers’ :nerd_face:. I decided to trust their anecdotes, you didn’t. That’s the difference between you and me here. I just laid out my logical thought process based on it.

Maybe I’ll do it. Had to pre-plan some stuff though.

63

Have you ever been on your computer, tried to open a program, but it didn’t open. Then you tried again and it worked without doing anything different the second time you double click? Does it mean that because the program didn’t open on the first try that the code is directed to not open on the first try? No. Its a glitch. The same thing could very well be the issue here. When starting the ban phase, something happened that caused another player to ban above the highest ranked player, but we don’t know what. The penalty hasn’t been proven so we can’t say for sure its the reason.

Even if it was made that way, people dodge matches all the time. So if someone is, say Gold 5, drops into Silver 1 after dodging and losing the points they can still ban over Gold 5 players who were initially lower than the person who dodged, if what others are saying here is correct that is, however there’s no evidence here to prove that. If that’s how it worked, I’m sure it would be talked about more, but it isn’t, and as far as I know, hasn’t been since 2019.

Exactly. Why would you? So the people who claim this to be true probably haven’t even dodged that many times and are making things up. One would need to intentionally do so in order to prove my point wrong. Some say they have… but there’s no way for us to verify what they’re saying is true (a stance many people have here when there are complaints about a certain match yet don’t show the replay… most people here would say that they need to review the replay, or evidence, to see what really happened). I could say I’m a millionaire, and no one here can prove me wrong because they have no way to… but it doesn’t make me a millionaire because I say I am.

Or because it doesn’t exist anymore lol

Yes they don’t, but don’t you see… if it was more common of an occurence, others would have noticed it as well. Those two who have noticed aren’t the only ones who are able to notice it.

Evidence of what? In no way do those instances prove it was because of rank point penalties… that remains a mystery, but you just assume its because of the penalty.

You call such a small amount of cases a pattern? I mean a pattern requires repetition doesn’t it? The programming is for highest ranked players to ban, and that MMR=rank. When this doesn’t happen (the very very small number of cases), it is seen as an abnormality or glitch, but that doesn’t mean its programmed to not listen to its own programming only sometimes. See the example above where you try to open a program on your computer.

You are so hellbent that I’m wrong, and refuse to accept it could be anything besides your headcanon, so don’t we need to test it ourselves to be sure? I mean… isn’t that how we find out for sure?

I’m not calling them liars. I’m saying the cause of their instance isn’t caused by what others in this thread say its caused by.

What I said isn’t illogical, it just differs from what you think.

64

That’s a separate issue with the program you were trying to open, your OS, mouse, etc, those.

That alone is highly unlikely to begin with. Think about it. 1 dodge dropped the player to S1? That means the player was almost at the end of G5. And in the player’s next game, nearly equivalently low G5 is their team’s captain, the top rank/MMR player? That would’ve been unlikely even when HotS was more popular, even less so now.

Dang~ :flushed:. So, as I said, ‘mind as well call them, liers’, haha :sweat_smile:.

You consider some of the players on the forum, too low. It’s not as if they have something to gain from lying.

Sure. But survivorship bias still persist here.

‘Common’, compare to what? It’s not gonna be ‘common’ as you would consider, and most players wouldn’t even care to share when they experience it.

The reason, yes, I assumed. Evidence of ‘high rank not always banning’. And via process of elimination I mentioned above, most probable candidate of ‘who bans’ was ‘top MMR player’.

  • If rank always equals mmr, and top rank player is the one who bans, top mmr player should always be banning.
  • Top rank doesn’t ban all the time. Then who? Top mmr player does.
  • That means rank does not always equal mmr.

In terms of how program code works, yes.

Did.

It really is the other way around. From the start, I only followed logical process. Sorry the receiving person had to be you, but it’s not personal at all. Again, my whole assumption, train of thought, is based on the other players’ anecdotes as legit. If they’re not, I have nothing.

Indeed. That’s why I might check it myself. But again, pre-planning, basically screwing up reputation or whatever with one of my accounts.

No no. Not the ‘reason’. As I said above, ‘highest rank not always banning’, that part/observation.

Sorry, you are calling them liers on it.

That depends on how you take others’ anecdotes. If you believe them, you are being illogical. If you don’t, you’re not being illogical. You’re on the latter so, you’re not being illogical, but you are calling them liers so.

And NO! I should emphasize on this. This is not to put you and others against each other. It’s about what it really is on my part. Testing would solve it for sure.

65

@mispah Like arguing with a flat-earther isn’t it? Xd

I state a simple truth that pretty much everyone knows and suddenly it turns into a lengthy “discussion”.

P.S. I’ve never actually met a real flat-earther. I think it’s just a fictional construct to describe a type of person.

66

Deflection. As always. You do notice when an icon on the desktop or start menu has been clicked, if it were a mouse issue it wouldn’t have registered and you’d see that. Isn’t the OS the programming we are talking about? That’s exactly it, the OS had a hiccup because 2 seconds later you were able to open it by doing the exact same thing as before.

No, its really not. Most matches you’re paired with players withing your same rank (all gold 5 for example). The 500 point decrease can definitely drop you down to Silver 1, even from midway through gold 5 (at up to 499 points). And yes, a person who’s ranked gold 5 would still ban if you were matched with them because now your rank is silver 1, not gold 5. If an unplaced person at gold 5 would ban, its because they haven’t “placed” but it doesn’t mean their MMR differs from their rank. It just means that season, they haven’t played their placement matches.

Well they haven’t proven otherwise. Anything could be said, doesn’t mean its true.

Just because you have nothing to gain, doesn’t mean you can’t lie. Lol

Of course its not going to be common… because its not programmed to be a common occurrence. Simple.

It is insignificant because there is such a small amount of times where this happened. That doesn’t represent the whole.

No. Anything that happens .01% of the time is not programmed to work that way.

Is it not logical to see what the devs say in their patch notes and argue against anything that does not align with how they programmed SL to work? You have two examples of when the rules broke and you’re claiming “it must be this way because these two examples (with probably a few more in the shadows unsaid… which still doesn’t amount to any significant amount) say it works this way” and you’re unable to differ from that viewpoint. Who is really the illogical one? The one who says it works the way it does because of an insignifcant figure, or the one who’s view align with the patch notes?

I’m literally not. If you can’t see that, its on you. Don’t blur the lines. I’m not saying the two posts that were linked saying that another player who wasn’t higher ranked banned in those matches were wrong or didn’t happen… I’m saying that people who are claiming its due to penalties are liars because they haven’t proven that’s the cause.

sigh… still sticking to that huh… okay. You literally said I’m not being illogical… yet still bring up how I’m calling others liars… when I’m not.

Except flat earthers have no evidence what they are saying is correct… like how you all don’t. Wouldn’t that make you the flat earther in this analogy?

My evidence is in the patch notes. If you can’t read it and understand it… that’s on you. Nowhere does it state that penalties don’t affect MMR other than changing rank… so unless you have evidence stating otherwise you have to go with what we know… which is that Rank=MMR.

I’m done replying to anyone else unless you solid proof what I’m saying isn’t true. If you can prove it, with evidence, then I’ll take back what I said because I’ll look at it and realize I was wrong. But I am not going to be sitting here getting called things while what you say has 0 merit because there’s not proof what you’re saying is correct.

I mean in reality, maybe not some bootleg forum, evidence is important… but I guess that doesn’t apply here does it? Or does it only when it benefits you? Idk. Go flap your gums, I couldn’t care less.

Btw Biochumikas, using an ad hominem fallacy isn’t exactly the best way to argue, especially when your ad hominem analogy intended to insult me isn’t even correct. Lol :laughing:

67

Just solidifies your ignorance and stupidity.

68

A toxic flat-earther, even better.

69

Flat earther = no evidence (you)
round earther = has evidence

I’m toxic because you’re stupid? Lol good one.

@mizpah I’m willing to just drop it since the only way to truly prove anything is to do it ourselves and I’ve already been attacked by some and called toxic even though he through the first punch lol. I see no point in continuing with this. You’re free to believe however the system works based on your point of view. And I’m free to believe it my way… until evidence proves either of us wrong.

At least you were respectful… I applaud that.

70

No. We’re talking about program you clicked. Or maybe you don’t know what OS is.

Nope. Just a person who knows how program works.

Not that I remember much anymore, but don’t think so. G4 among the G5, sure. But that doesn’t go with what you want to say.

I know. I was just pointing out what you were saying. Don’t know why you tried to deny it though.

Uh, no. People lie to gain at least something. Something petty as superiority mindset even but nonetheless. It more looks like you became the toxic one while complaining about some toxic environment on the forum. You may have beef with some other players’ attitude, but here, you seemed to be the high horse one, looking down at other players (doubt they’re part of the group you had issues with). That is basically what I was pointing out from you basically calling them liers. There was so many ways to rephrase what you said, have a healthy discussion. But at this point, meh.

So you’re saying it is programmed that way now? K.

Doesn’t change the fact of top rank doesn’t always ban. I asked you a question because of it, you didn’t answer. If not highest rank, then who?

So it’s not again then. I just don’t think you know how programming works. Super duper uber rare mount, very low drop chance. Is it program to drop or not? By your logic, it doesn’t.

Again, people generalize all the time. Devs are not gonna say, oh but this that, that this when explaining.

The question: Who bans? ‘Highest rank always ban’, turns out to be false so.

Meh. Just gonna drop the rest. Too much off topic stuff.

71

I’ll just quote myself as well.

72

No, problem was you not trying to have a discussion but going overboard with ma proof. Someone cornered with no other logical approach tends to do that.

In short, however your state may have been when you first joined the forum, now, you’re the toxic one.

73

So are we to just believe what anyone says when it comes to determining how something works in the background instead of something that can easily be proved like a talent or whatever? I mean things like that kind of need some type of proof, no one had any, still doesn’t have any… yet challenges me and my views because its not how it works to them.

Then you go about saying “logical” as if agreeing with something that has no evidence to back it up is logical.

That has nothing to do with anything. You, and others want to believe I’m the toxic one when I disagree with you and there’s slight evidence in my favor because its specifically written. And your “evidence” is based on others anecdotes other than yourself that you choose to believe despite what patch notes say and you claim that to be truth and call it logical.

I’ve already agreed to drop it, and here you are trying to reignite the fire to stir up this conversation further… isn’t that the definition of toxic?

Like serious question… because you always seem to reply to my posts as of late… do you have a thing against me where you gain pleasure from arguing with me to prove me wrong? Because that’s what it feels like… if so… that’s more toxic than calling someone stupid.

74

Not the ones who’s claiming they are GM so their words, ways are the correct ones, no. But anecdoctes like these, no problem.

Hardly. I can remember two. This one, and hardstuck bronze issue or however you want to name it. You weren’t even on the side of there being hardstuck bronze anyhow. You just didn’t like Fan as an example. I’m more like how you were then. I care little of which is true. Just doing the logical thought process, that’s all.

75

So you would agree with something that has 0 no evidence to its claim. Good to know. Not very logical though… The logical thing would be to follow the evidence stated by a developer of the game through the patch notes since they have the understanding we do not… but oh well. To each his own.

How is that a logical thought process? Logically, someone is more inclined to believe what other say when those others have evidence/merit. The devs have merit and the patch notes written by them stated MMR=Rank is the evidence, but the others in this thread lack proper (non anecdotal) evidence that disproves it… so how is it logical to refuse to believe it works way when there’s no evidence to back it up?

You say you’re all about logic, yet your actions say otherwise.

76

You really want to go there? I’ve been laying out logical thought process throughout. If we’re dropping this, there is no need for me to bring that up. If we’re continuing on with this, I can bring that all up and go all the way. Only flaw of it, I already mentioned, and what that insinuates.

77

No, throughout this whole thing you’ve been working out how these anecdotal “evidences” make sense, which they don’t and that’s the whole point. They don’t need to make sense. They’re abnormalities. And then you’re assimilating the information with a mind set of “well if it isn’t this, it must be this” as if those rule breaks have only a select number of variables that could have happened, and then you’re using that as a “well it has to be this certain way then”. That is logical thinking, you have that. But I don’t think the conclusion is correct.

However what I find illogical is that you even need to try to work through all that. The devs stated in the patch notes that MMR is mapped to rank and rank was no longer considered in the matchmaker, meaning they are now one in the same instead of different. It was also directly stated that the highest ranked player is the captain, the one who bans.

A few instances rejected this by not conforming to those rules. Why? We don’t know. We assume, but lack of evidence cannot prove it either way. There are possible suspects, you lean towards it having to do with penalty, while I think (since MMR and rank are equal) that penalties do not have anything to do with it because there’s no evidence stating that is true.

Another illogical part is where you think MMR is not equal to rank based on something with no evidence behind it, except anecdotal evidence, when the devs specifically said they are mapped to each other. So is it logical for you to believe someone with merit? Or an anecdote?

You could be right, it very well might not be some unknown variable. It might just be that the penalty alters rank and not MMR, but I choose not to believe that because there’s no evidence that states that it is true and no information from the devs that state that its true. Its not illogical to do that either. The only way I will know for sure is for me to do it… and the only way you will know for sure is for you to do it. Whether people believe your findings or mine… is not up to us.

I’m just not going to accept any answer as the solid answer until there’s evidence to support it, there isn’t… so I will either have to conduct this experiment myself to find answers or just drop it as a whole.

Calling me toxic for standing my ground is uncalled for. I explained why I believe what I do and who are you to tell me I’m wrong with no evidence to support that I’m wrong and that I’m toxic for not budging?

78

No, I didn’t. I said my assumption is based on that. And if it is wrong, rest of my argument means nothing. How does that make it me trying to say they makes sense?

Stopped reading after this.

That is not how program works. I’ve been through this. Your ignorance on the subject made you treat those anecdotes as some statistical anomaly that can be excluded. Keep arguing about how the other guys’ are lying. That, at least makes logical sense.

I can’t fathom this…like…

79

And then thought through “logic” that it has to be the only solution otherwise you wouldn’t have thrown down my view so quickly.

Well yeah I expected as much from you. Negating 70% of what I said afterwards. Ok then good to know you actually real things through fully… smh.

Is something that isn’t supposed to occur not abnormal?

My best guess would be that when those players saw that a person who wasn’t higher rank was banning was like “hmm… weird” and I know that because they wouldn’t have made the threads if it was normal.

Or when someone programs something to work a certain way and then it doesn’t one time out of 1000 and think “hmm that’s weird I wonder why that happened”.

If you don’t think that’s the first response then you’re out of touch with reality. Trade the word “weird” with any synonym and it’ll make sense.

“Hmm that’s weird”
“hmm that’s abnormal”

Abnormal is the root word for abnormality, is it not?

80

No, if that anecdotes are the case, rest is what I wrote earlier, which conclusion leads to rank points whatever doesn’t always equal mmr points, which was what all this is about. You kept ignoring the ‘rest’ part where I laid down my logic, why I think such and such (one of which, the question you still hadn’t answer). I came to debate, you weren’t having it.

You mean what you’ve been doing? I stopped there because you repeated what you said before, which I laid out my points, which you ignored. Do you expect me to copy paste what I wrote and repeat it? Again, you didn’t even try to debate how I’m wrong and you’re right on it.

Define ‘isn’t supposed to occur’. Because you don’t seemed to get the difference of that in programming.

Two Chen(s). Both Q each other. There was a bug that made them go flip flop, both trying to be over top of one another, going all the way up the screen and disappear, both not being able to participate in the game.

Is that supposed to occur by the intention of the devs? Of course not. It occurred anyway because they didn’t set a limit on how two Chen(s), which you could only get in QM games, interact with their Qs. You can easily replicate this because program is set to do so (without limits or conditions being set). Those are called bug. Not intended by devs, but programmed to do so. Because it is easily replicable, you can easily catch where the problem is and fix it.

Same goes for this ‘high rank not always banning’. We can’t say what the intention of the devs were (we’re not mind readers). But it is happening because program is set to do so. Bug or might-be fully intended interaction, those are not called anomalies which you can choose to exclude out of your whim. You’re gonna exclude two Chen(s) Q interaction too? How will you ever find a bug, pattern if you exclude data you don’t find appropriate? There is name for that too actually, something something bias.

As I said, you should’ve stuck with ‘oh, they’re lying’ if you wanted to stay logically consistent.

81

of who is supposed to ban? Still the highest ranked player. It didn’t happen for some reason, that reason is unknown no matter how much you want to attribute it to rank being different from MMR. The point is we don’t know, but patch notes tell you which is correct, if you ignore that. Its not my problem

Because there wasn’t anything in what you said that had a good enough reason for it to debunk the fact that MMR=rank. You kept talking about how programming doesn’t work like that, when that’s the exact point. If something is programmed to work a certain way, and it doesn’t, its an abnormality that needs to be explored. We don’t know what that abnormality is… but its still one. You’re saying programming itself doesn’t work like that when I think you mean it isn’t supposed to work like that.
Programs are not perfect. If they were, then we wouldn’t be having a problem with the client, you wouldn’t be huge when others are small when you alt-tab out of the hots before the mvp screen, you wouldn’t have times where it doesn’t want to log you in, you wouldn’t have times where you can’t start matches because the ready icon is greyed out. If it were perfect, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. The fact it isn’t perfect means abnormalities, errors, and such happen from day to day week to week or month to month and so on.

The thing is we don’t know what is causing it, you’re just assuming its because rank and mmr are different.

If MMR and rank were two separate values (basically negating what the devs said) and it was part of the programming, we’d see these occurrences more often, but we don’t… hence why its an abnormality and not something you see every day.

I did not ignore your points. You just kept with your “its not how programming works” when abnormalities aren’t supposed to happen… that’s literally why they’re abnormalities. Your points did not disprove mine because of those anecdotal evidences so why should I go and prove to you that programming works a certain way when you can’t even understand what an abnormality is?

Two Chen Q’s are very easy to replicate and perhaps the rules were not fully set as to what happens when they both do… we do have the rules for banning though, highest bans… so how would that rule be unfollowed only in a small amount of cases? Could it also be that rank and mmr aren’t the same thing? It can’t, because it undermines the devs also specifically stating that MMR is equal to rank… hmm let me guess… what else could it be? Oh maybe an abnormality? Something that isn’t supposed to happen but does for some reason… a reason we don’t yet know but want to assume its something with no evidence behind it. Logical.

Don’t talk to me about exclusion. You’re excluding the fact the devs specifically wrote in their programming that MMR=Rank and that highest ranked bans… and can’t explain why those other instances occurred. Good for you.