PvE gear progression shouldn't be 100% RNG - and PvP should be 100% deterministic

One of the largest frustration points since Legion is the amount of RNG that was introduced into gear progression. From War- and Titanforging to Weekly boxes to Legiondaries to crafted items having random stats, and so on, and so forth. Some of these have been remedied over time, but there are still a lot of bad apples in the current system.

  1. No Justice / Valor vendors, Conquest cap not scaling with CR in favor of the Weekly box

Before we had the weekly box, on the PvE end of things, you could get emblems from just doing PvE, or Justice / Valor during and after Cataclysm, and for PvP, you could get more arena points or conquest points the higher your CR was at the end of the week.

The reason why this gearing system was much more appreciated is because PvEers didn’t feel like RNG was holding their progression back, while PvP players could gear at a natural pace without any RNG involved, while higher rated players could get our 2-3 weeks quicker than those who were stuck at the lower end of the ladder, essentially rewarding their skill. Of course both had their issues - we didn’t have the Valor or Conquest catchup back in the day (where the cap kept increasing each week), but we do now. Combining those two would create a very player friendly progression system.

On top of this of course, to avoid people sitting at a high CR in PvP for gear, they should be required to have won at least 10-15 games each week in their highest CR bracket.

But instead, right now, we have the Weekly box. The upside to the Weekly Box is that you can actually get another roll at the desired raid items that used to be normally unavailable in the old days. The downside is literally everything else. The RNG is exceptionally unfair - if you loot your BiS PvP weapon the 1st week, not only did you just get tens of thousands of honor for free, you also have the best item in the game for literally no effort. The same goes for PvE boxes.

  1. Warforging as a means to keep people “engaged”

As of right now, you can potentionally proc: avoidance, leech, speed or a socket (or any duo of these). The intent (from the player’s perspective) is to keep your monthly subscription rolling, because getting BiS is artifically gated behind extreme layers of RNG.

Just get rid of it, and add natural sockets and tertiary stats to gear.

  1. Crafting forsaken in favor of absurd grinds

There is barely any point in crafting anymore. Since there are no natural sockets anymore, Jewelcrafting is almost completely useless, gear-crafting professions are only useful for crafting 200ilvl items and the occasional base item for a Legendary, inscription is straight up a cosmetic profession at this point, with the remaining professions being Alchemy, Engineering, Enchanting and gatherer professions being semi-relevant. Instead of being able to create great items and selling those (and they don’t neccesarily need to be BiS items!), the players are instead encouraged to engage in grinds that are monotonous and boring with massive gear gaps between players.

Tl;dr - player agency and player-friendly systems are important.


The increasing RNG barrier of entry has been a large reason why I have avoided playing high-end content for a while, it just doesn’t feel very rewarding to do a raid multiple times to get lucky with that socket or tertiary stat. Loot is RNG enough to start out with, isn’t it?
Badges were a great way to just let us do the content and feel like we got at least something out of doing content.

I guess the main worry then is, that you will get your BiS very quickly and then quit playing because you’re done. But that isn’t necessarily true, or necessarily a problem.

What if the item that lets us apply sockets to gear was purchasable with valor points instead? And why not add one for tertiary stats while we’re at it, or just make tertiary stats actual stats you can find on gear naturally without having them be RNGed onto the gear. I would personally like to get rid of the RNG as you say, but this way Blizzard can have their cake and eat it too.

I like crafting as an optional part of gearing… the way you use it now to gear up alts is great, I think, and I wish that instead of having to use tokens from Korthia or wherever, we’d rather get that kind of catchup from crafting. But it would be nice to see some life breathed into the professions again, it feels like they’re only really there for the reasons you say, and that feels bad.


The thing is, as long as content is fresh and new content is constantly being released, and if Blizzard doesn’t forsake old content, they don’t need to artifically extend gametime.

Instead of developing content though, Blizzard focuses on creating systems for 1 patch - or 1 expansion - then throw it in the garbage. Imagine how cool Torghast would have been as a separate piece of content if they didn’t develop their other bad systems.


I think this is true to an extent, but developing new content isn’t always as simple as having the people working on systems swap over to making new content. But it is certainly a big factor.

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Of course it isn’t. But at the same time, it is important to recognize where resources should go, and how to spend it.


My biggest issue with m+ gear is that you just refarm the same dungeon for the same few pieces (Phial/quantum/scale etc). A simple way of being able to keep upgrading it would be nice so you don’t stress over super specific items. You’re going to be farming the dungeons anyway, at least you have 1 item guaranteed after getting it once.

I think in raids it would be more or less fine if we had masterloot back because it’s insane how much loot goes to waste early in the tier, or at the very least let us trade ANY items even if they’re the highest ilvl we have at the time.

I also miss baseline sockets on gear but that will probably never happen at this point. (…unless? :flushed: )


I remember getting my weapon first week and the insane power gain it gave me over almost everyone who didnt have it. that kind of stuff while cool should never happen its just titanforging all over again.