My thoughts on the M+ system

Mythic+ is an ever evolving system. It started back in MoP with Challenge Mode Dungeons, continued in WoD and then became the Keystone System we still use today.

Let me bring you into my world of M+.

In 9.1 I achieved KSM for the first time, massively thanks to my guild. Since the keystone system was implemented I think the highest key I have timed was a +18 in BFA. I don’t push keys to the max, because frankly I don’t enjoy them.

I don’t like most of the affixes.
I don’t like that every week, every dungeon feels the same.
I don’t like the community around pugging M+.
and I don’t like the current state of M+.

Let’s start with affixes.
There are currently 15 different affixes in rotation. Some of them are cool and interesting (Spiteful, Inspiring), Some are bland and boring (Volcanic, Raging), some are just annoying (Explosive) and some affixes make me skip a week of M+, or only do 1 for a single vault option (Bolstering).

But we have 15 affixes:

  • Fortified/Tryannical
  • 12 changing weekly
  • Tormented

There are a total of 264 possible keystone combinations with this many affixes. So why do we go one week at a time, only seeing one combination? Why not have every key be randomized?
I know what you’re thinking, and I agree, not all of the 264 combinations should be used. (Looking at you Fortified/Bolstering) So let’s pick a number of keystones that aren’t completely unfair, lets say the number is 150.
Why not have all 150 combinations always be in rotation? We have the option to swap our keys out after timing a run if we don’t like them. We have the option to reduce the level of them if its higher than we want to run. Why are we locked into one set of affixes for an entire week, thus shaping every dungeon for that week?
I would like to see an overhaul of affixes, but that would probably be in 10.0 at the earliest, but ever changing keystones could come much sooner and would be a welcome change.

Seasonal Affixes

These have been hit or miss. I’m not a fan of “spawn something every 20% trash” although it made for some interesting routes, less experienced groups were suddenly overwhelmed by an awkward prideful spawning and threw the entire key off as a result. This also puts a lot of pressure on the tanks to get it exactly right, especially in a pug setting, which we already know is a toxic environment. I think the idea of seasonal affixes is cool, and thematically they have fit in with what is going on in the game, even if their affects and implementation aren’t perfect.


Are we not done with these yet? Every +10 or higher Keystone has always had one of the two of these, and every key since BFA. I understand these are the easiest basic modifiers to have in a dungeon, and I don’t want to suggest getting rid of them entirely, but let’s not have them on every single key. Put them in the rotation so they can randomly show up on a keystone (But this would be one of the combinations that should absolutely not exist if they were added to the pool).


It’s been mentioned a few times above the toxic environment surrounding keys. There is a lot to focus on in a key, and unlike a 4-8 minute boss fight (Go away Sylvanas), a M+ dungeon requires absolute focus for 30+ minutes at a time. DPS have to make sure interrupts are used, targets are CC’d, priorities are killed. Tanks have their own set of affixes to deal with sometimes (Necrotic), and in the past have had to make sure their trash % is perfect, else they face the wrath of their group members, and healers have to worry about keeping everyone alive and doing DPS at the same time (easier for some healers than others, of course). One mistake in the wrong place and the key is over and it’s all your fault.
I’ll be honest. I don’t know the best way to fix this. I would love some feedback as to what you all think. Shutting down pugging isn’t the answer. So what is?

Current State of M+

M+ for me is a means to an end. If not for 246 loot and 252 vault options, I would rarely do M+. I love dungeons, I always have. I like the challenge. But some weeks just suck to play a certain class/role, and so we’re stuck with a week of running and hating, or not running and missing out on Mythic raid level loot. (Which leads me to another point of the best gear in the game should come from Mythic raid (not just KT/Sylv) but that’s a discussion for another time)

What to do

The repeating issue of M+ is that each week feels the same. The same dungeons on the same affixes.
Right now we have 2 keystones in our bags. One for Shadowlands, and one for Legion. Legion M+, while I have yet to run one myself, from what I hear is new, exciting, and hard.

As it should be.

We have timewalking for 6 of 8 old expansions now (Missing Classic & BFA). If we add those, timewalking becomes a 2 month rotation if used every week. Every week we can have M+ for the current expansion, and M+ for a timewalking expansion.
There are a few issues with this idea.

#1) None of the old dungeons were made with M+ in mind.
#2) The rotation might be too slow for people looking for a certain trinket/piece of gear.
#3) Maybe a coding issue to put new affixes in old dungeons? I’m not sure on this one, but something I wonder if would be a roadblock or not.

Well, not every dungeon needs to be used, we already see that in Timewalking. But how cool would it be to do Timewalking Ramparts, or Deadmines, or Oculus… (lol jk).

There is a lot of potential for change. These are just my ideas.


M+ affixes should be random within a week. Avoid obviously bad combinations like bolstering fortified and don’t have entire weeks feeling the exact same for M+ (also gets rid of push week / dead week mentality) Finally, add tyran / fort to main rotation. We’re tired of them being on every key since M+ was created (10+ in legion)


Because of the big disparity in affix difficulty to me it feels completely the opposite. A dungeon I might enjoy 1 week might be really annoying the next week.

I think it would feel very bad to get a key+ affix combo that really sucks compared to one that is very easy. I think a better solution is to fix/change/replace the problematic ones.

I think they should just remove them and tune the trash/bosses directly.

I think a big problem with pugs comes from the timer of dungeons. People just want to time their dungeon and any type of potential failure breeds toxicity. It also feels like the timers this expansion compared to bfa and especially legion are a lot less lenient and allow for less mistakes.

You also have the problem of covenant bonuses where people will usually require 1 person of the faction. Not to say that it’s not doable without of course but with pugs people usually go for the highest chance at success as opposed to whatever they can get.

I don’t really have a suggestion sadly to how to solve this issue but I thought I’d give my 2 cents on it at least.

Personally I like doing dungeons because I enjoy playing the classes. I have fun pumping big damage, I have fun tanking/healing occasionally so I simply enjoy putting the classes to work because the raid is a one time per week thing and mythic prog you’re doing 1 boss at a time outside of reclears.

However I can understand that some people don’t have fun and I think that’s because of certain outliers in the affixes/combos which really make some dungeons not feel fun at all especially when paired with Tyrannical/Fortified.

Usually you can pull trash on bosses but bolstering doesn’t allow you to. You can’t pull too big either because it gets out of control. Luckily in a proper coordinated group it’s not that big an issue but it’s still annoying. It is however very bad in pugs where nobody looks at healthbars.

Necrotic is an other outlier where it punishes the tanks and is generally not a fun affix to play with. I know some tanks just avoid the week altogether. Some tanks actually had counterplay to it but instead of adding more options for the rest they just made it so you can’t drop stacks and just have to kite.

I think that having more variety is good, we just have to see how the legion one works out. Maybe it even becomes baseline eventually.


But we already have a sort of solution for this where you can reroll your key if you don’t like it after timing another key etc


It would still be a problem if people simply spam reroll until they get easy combos and entirely avoid others.


Yes but thats the point of avoiding bad combos. We’ve had to deal with a week long of Fort/Bolstering. Never again please

Well it’s not really well designed if everyone just wants to avoid them, or is able to. What would be the point of them existing if nobody plays them? That’s why I think fixing/changing/replacing is a better alternative to avoid the disparity rather than just letting you opt out of them.


Agreed, but removing/reworking powers doesn’t seem to me like something they would do in 9.X patch - would have to be 10.0.

1 Like

Edit - This reply has been moved into its own topic and can be found here:


I feel this.

I still have my 226 IQD equipped that I got at the end of 9.0. I spent all tier trying to get one, finally had one come in vault within the final weeks of 9.0, and now I’m in the same position. I have yet to have one drop or show up in my vault.


edit: Added TL’DR to original post

You did not just bump your post in a forum with <50 people and it was still visible. People will get to and around to topics when feedback can be provided but we should not turn this forum into a competition of who’s post stays at the top through sussy tactics. Each post should be quality and you know you wanted your post at the top so you bumped it in a sussy way. Smh


That was not the intent. There was a post on the GD asking us to post a TLDR (Dear community council members)

You can just edit your post and say

edit 12/13 - added xyz

You do not need to add a reply for each edit