This is almost an imposible topic to address, since Devs introduced M+ and it impacted raiding compared to PvP that has a different ilvl and set of rules.
I couldn’t imagine the reaction of the community if M+ loot was limited instead of an endless grind like it’s now.
IMO, Devs should change raiding, it has been 10+ years since it was changed from 10/25 to the current Flex model to N/H and 20 man Mythic, a mistake in my opinion because Devs should had implemented a same model for all difficulties flex or 20man, so the transition between difficulties won’t impact the groups.
Maybe Devs should start considering the removal of ID for Mythic or the cross realm groups since day 1…some other adjustments if they’re not going to change the group sizes.
Also, CC members:
You already had a lot of threads regarding this topic, at this point you’re just creating a duplicate of a previous one because there’s a lack of Blizzard response or conversation on this topic, you should have a single thread for M+/RAID discussion.
The very easy and obvious solution is just to go iron curtain for both. Just like pvp gear is now and works great. People who like both will gear for both anyway.
I don’t think it’s a good idea but if someone wants raid loot to be more like mythic+ then they should make mythic raid cosmetic only just like the equivalent harder keys are cosmetic only.
Then make raid drops have no lockout but you can’t get the best version of raid loot except out of your weekly vault.
Also add about 15 more trash packs between bosses to make the time to clear similar.
I think there will always be a group/community who will be upset regarding this topic, but it does stand that M+ is way easier to do, organise and plan than mythic raiding is, while giving similar ilvl. It has basically changed that you can ignore raiding if you wish to, but you can’t realistically ignore M+ if you’re Mythic raiding.
This changes if you’re a heroic or normal raiding guild.
This is a good example of the forum layout being a total mess, its hard to find topics from before we joined the CC.
What about thinking the opposite? Instead of limiting loot for M+, allow N/H reclears for loot? Like M+ that’s just an endless grind based on your available time
IMO, a problem will be RWF but they already do split and any possible weird solution…
I’m probably wrong but I think this would be massively unpopular and feel the people wanting silos are in the extreme minority where most just like playing the game and improving their character.
If a restaurant opens up next door and it does more business than you do, do you:
A) Try to nerf that restaurant
B) Update your menu
It comes down to what kind of person you are. If you’re a totalitarianism enthusiast, your instinct is “Control Everything”. Make people eat at your restaurant because you like it and that’s what matters.
If you’re a personal freedom guy, you accept that your favorite thing maybe isn’t everyone’s favorite thing and you change your menu to suit what the public wants.
Remove raid lockouts. Make mythic raid Flex, or offer static 10/20 man versions if the balance has to be a certain way.
Done. People can eat at the restaurant they prefer and nobody gets left out.
Good for them, they will get gear from the things they like doing and gear up anyways. I for one wouldn’t mind tier sets and raid trinkets and higher ilvl m end boss gear no longer giving people an advantage in m+. Lots of raiders post on here that they don’t want to feel forced to do m+ to raid. The only people who are negatively impacted are people who do both and like having a gearing speed advantage over others.
IMO, M+ changed a lot with the removal of seasonal affix, the change of affixes levels and We’ve 0 changes to raiding…Its about time that Devs consider changes to raiding as a whole, since players that raided MoP as a youn adult, now has 10+ years with a lot of changes in their lifes…the game should be improved, it’s not like this game attracts a new community and more players prefer M+ because of time constraints.
Be careful, you’re trying to mess with Blizzards golden play time metric. They absolutely don’t want us to find a reason to log out, and limiting m+ loot will do that.
Best solution is to make N/H raids resettable so bosses can be farmed so raiders can do their content.
Mythic+ is just flat easier than raiding for the loot it gives and is also the only realistic source of aspect crests for crafted gear.
It easier to organize, easier to clear, just flat easier (up to levels where the rewards cap, I know it’s infinite scaling and eventually, because math, will be harder).
It makes delves kind of a curious thing. If they give the same or better loot than keys, easier crests acquisition, were even easier in difficulty compared to keys and also solobale, would we see a decrease in keys being ran?
I really enjoy mythic+ but it’s hard to not see it’s a joke difficulty for its rewards, more this season.
Mythic+ and raiding only become mutually exclusive if one’s goal is just gear, in which case you’ll run mythic+, run at mach 5 and call it a day. But if you like the social aspect of raiding and overcoming a challenge with you friends all the while discussing the Klingon Civil war and it’s ramification on the Alpha Quadrant then of course raiding doesn’t have a substitute. Apples and oranges, only if or not in it for just the gear.
I personally think the base formula of raiding is quite holding together still, I can’t really think of many ways to change it up without being very disruptive. Reducing the lockout timer for bosses will cause issues for most guilds as they’ve spread their days over the week, my guild for instance raids on Thursdays and Mondays.
Whichever changes, at its current form, getting KSM does not equal the same difficulty as killing Fyrakk heroic, getting KSH and doing 20+ keys is much, much, much easier than mythic Amirdrassil.
Don’t get me wrong, I love M+ and play it on a fairly high rating while only raiding heroic for the social aspect and sometimes good trinkets and weapons, but I have to admit there is definitely a big gap in getting gear.
I am not sure the problem lies with raiding though.
The thing is some people want the grind, some people do not want.
I’m pretty much on the raid logger side, let people raid log if they want to as I prefer to be able to play only a couple days/hours a week to be competitive.
Removing raid lockouts would make this worse as it would turn raiding in the same madness that is farming M+. I was pretty happy when the weekly one M+ was the only thing I had to do. I would like removing/reducing further the weekly stuff/great vault you need to grind once you clear your weekly raid so there isn’t too much grinds to be competitive.
Sure it’s all a choice, but not really. If you want to be able to join groups you need to do the grinds, if you want to perform in content you need to do the grind. So the more grind there are the less players can actually play the game at the same level the harder it is to actually find people to do content.
The only viable compromise seems to split m+ from raid gear by scaling raid gear higher in raids but then people hate having to deal with more gear to do multiple content.
Really glad you folks decided to bring the conversation over here as well, thanks.
As for consolidating into a single post, I would love that but I haven’t been with the CC for very long. I figured I’d spark some fresh discussion around the topic.
