Pets don’t solo people in PvP. Pets are no more difficult to handle than an LFR raid, which you’re very familiar with.
Yeah there is no way, my pet does about 50 DPS, if anyone dies to pets alone it means they are bad, imagine letting a pet beat on you for 28 seconds. My auto shot does almost 70 DPS alone, if I went Marksman talents it’d be closer to like 120. Pets shouldn’t do more DPS than marksman can do with ranged shots, but they should do more than BM hunters auto shot, by a fair margin seeing as how that’s what we put all our buffs toward.
Only in stealth. So they have to lose their opener to do this. So no ambush, cheap shot, etc. Expect to see that rune be less and less common the more reliable a rogues openers get.
The ranged slow isn’t that big a deal imo, it’s got a cd and requires management. The ranged kidney however I do have concerns with. The kill windows on rogues are very tight, and the reduced energy cost backstab and kidney that does damage could have some impacts on that later in the game. But I mean, 1v1 has never been the balance marker for PVP so it’s hard to say whether they will care.
Soooo… sinister strike + slice and dice was exciting? Like what? What kind of argument is this? First, we’re LEVEL 25! Second, rogue rotation at 60 wasn’t exactly the pinnacle of engagement.
I keep seeing this over and over and over again. First off, hunters absolutely do have alternate playstyles in their runes. Melee hunter for the first time since TBC is actually getting some direct support. AND it just got buffed.
Second the ONLY REASON lion is the biggest and most impactful rune on that piece is because it’s the kings replacement. If you’re on Horde, you are literally gaining access to a fully unique skill never before seen on your faction. And if you’re Alliance, once Paladins have more talent points you’ll never have to take Lion again since paladins will give kings, and most holy paladins will give Horn of Lordaeron which means a single holy paladin with kings can cover double blessings and give benefits to hunters they wouldn’t get from might.
It’s such an inaccurate and poorly constructed argument I have no choice BUT to believe that people just come here to complain because they saw their class getting nerfed.
And what leads me to believe this even more is the VAST and I mean VAST majority of SoD hunter posts BEFORE the nerfs were complaining about melee hunters being weak, and Lion sharing a spot with Aspect of the Hawk.
It’s truly funny to see these ideas and complaints pop up out of nowhere, often times in complete opposition to the sentiments expressed prior (Lion is fine, just let us use aspects too, WHICH THEY FREAKING DID) and it’s only NOW with the recent nerfs we get these “We just want variety” arguments coming out of the woodwork.
Sounds more like reactionary complaints in response to justified and warrant rebalancing.
I’ve never SEEN to much crying in response to a literal balance change, since hunters also got SEVERAL buffs either their nerfs, something that almost never happens.
You do realized we got kings on horde said but alliance also got windfury buff which is better in every way for Melee than kings?
Trying to use that as an excuse like Alliance didn’t receive a horde only buff is wacky. Actually they recieved a better version of windfury ontop of it. I don’t care about alternate playstyles though, I don’t want Marksman to be the go to when we hit level 60, because BM is as useless as it is in vanilla, and if they nerf pets everytime they start feeling strong that’s what is gonna happen.
Like i’ll cut it some slack for this phase since we are missing a few good talents and skills that may change things. But if next phase they nerf pets again because they are strong it’s gonna be vanilla all over again.
This is the same thing that happened in vanilla with BM hunter, and it ended up being terrible and never allowed in raid, useless in PvP and was only good for solo farming, and that’s just the hunter class in general since you kited mobs you wanna kill not use your pet to taunt them.
Then ontop of it, there’s other classes that are better solo farming now than BM hunter so we don’t even got that going for us. Tank warlocks can solo groups of elites at a time, we can take one at a time and pet’s almost die.
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I’d love to see the warriors critting for 700. Are we talking about stacking some insanely specific conditions with a full rage execute? let’s see how disingenuous these numbers are. Also we literally have the numbers for parses on warcraft logs. The highest dps in BFD is 228.9. If you’re not even truthful on the easy to find one, why should I believe the other number?
Irrelevant argument. Hybrid tax is gone, get over it.
Why should they? Most of the classes standard playstyles are pretty much right in line with what they did before. Outside of the new roles given to classes, most just got buffed at what they already did. And the funny thing is, all the classes currently dominating the damage meters are the ones that changed the least in terms of general functionality. Warrior, rogue, and hunter all topping charts and playing the same as they ever had, while warlocks, mages, shaman, and priest are all taking massive L’s. But please do go on about how poorly hunters are doing.
Well that’s a curious statement since we haven’t reached the end of SoD. You must have some incredible psychic powers to know that.
Well, I can just tell you something here that the top 4 hunters on warcraft logs for BFD are all parses from Dec 12 and Dec 13, and ALL of them have their pet doing more damage than any other ability on their sheet including their autos. So either Warcraft Logs is wrong, or you are.
Check it for yourself. Hunter Damage Rankings - Blackfathom Deeps Complete Raids | Warcraft Logs Vanilla
Well first, I doubt that highly. Seems almost certainly that it’s about being nerfed. Secondly what exactly would you be expecting from spending 16 talent points in beast mastery tree?
The first two tiers of talents are entirely irrelevant to pet damage. You don’t get access to a single dps boost for your pets from BM tree until 10 points down the tree. While in marksman you get access to a new shot, bonus crit, and bonus attack power boosts.
Like the issue isn’t that pets are weak, it’s that you have a fraction of the talent points available at level 25 and can’t actually access meaningful beast mastery talents.
Then don’t? Spec means next to nothing right now because we have next to no talent points. My prot paladin is speced into the HOLY talent tree. Because nothing in prot is all the interesting at this level, and consecration is far more important.
I looked at those logs, i’m a bit confused why it says they are using a cat, but applying scorpid poison with it.
Unless the logs are bugged, or there is a bug allowing you to teach scorpid poison to your cat.
Oh think they named their scorpion Cat.
Both sides have access to BOTH buffs. In fact, both sides have druids and hunters. What is your argument?
No, what I am saying is that Lion grants a powerful and unique effect that only hunters on Horde side can provide. That’s the point. This isn’t about one faction over the other. I play primarily Horde. I could care less what the Alliance got (though I am a bit salty that druids get a post 30 shaman ability WAY earlier).
Well I already debunked this in my last post so I will just let you read that one for why this argument is silly. But I will expand that acting like ANYTHING that happens now at 25 is an indication of level 60 performance is downright absurd. because if that’s the case hunters should GET IN LINE behind shaman, priests, and boomkins. You realize how downright INSULTING it sounds for the literal BEST dps class with TWO extremely viable playstyles for dps to complain about being “useless” at endgame because they received a nerf when dps priest isn’t even playable right now, and shaman are hurting massively?
Like, they didn’t nerf pets because they were “strong”, they nerfed pets because they were like two players taped together. They were OUTRAGEOUSLY powerful. And anyone that doesn’t think so is just not being honest.
You really don’t understand just how many specs have a number before you do. I mained a shadow priest in BOTH vanilla and Classic Era.
This is just a lie. Flat out a lie. There’s a reason when you go to the worgen area in duskwood it’s nothing but hunters clearing the level 30s endlessly for the bracers. Every RFK farm group is 3 hunters. SM is full of hunters. Like it’s insulting to be just straight lied to about something that’s so easy to see.
This would be correct. Classic logs do not capture pet types, nor does it capture talent choices. They can only infer information from the log data.
That’s not a lie cause I farm RFK on my Warlock. Hunters pre-nerf could only solo the first like 12 pulls, if they got more than one elite on them there pet would die to fast and they’d have to run. My lock has no trouble pulling 2-3 Elites.
Hence I also said solo farming, but you listed how it was groups of hunters farming.
I am not saying that pet’s weren’t OP, i’m saying that blizzard needs to address the actual issues with BM spec, instead of going for easy fixes. Or it’s gonna be the same down the line, go marksmans talents, use pet runes.
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I don’t know what to tell you buddy our hunters do it all the time. And I’ve yet to see a tank warlock being successful on higher level mobs because of the resists. If they miss a single drain life due to resist they are completely dead in the water. And the fact we have multiple tank warlocks, and they all have the same issue in there, you’ll pardon me if I once again DOUBT you heavily since you’ve basically just been completely incorrect on every statement you’ve made.
They should get the warsong outriders trinket, that might be the issue. I rarely get a resist on my drain life or haunt.
They aren’t going to update talents. BM as a spec doesn’t exist at 25 because the TALENTS suck. You’re talking about something completely different. I don’t think there has been a single talent rebalance in all of SoD.
They said they would think about looking at the talents, but i havent seen them do that at all yet, and that may be the route they need to go eventually to actually cause balance, or add restrictions to runes based on talent trees.
This means very little when the overwhelming majority of Hunters don’t care about the melee toolkit and would rather play ranged instead of melee. This is reflected both when they actually made a melee Hunter spec in Legion and when they added support for it in SoD. It’s always played by a pathetically small amount of people; a usual number is 2% of the class’s population.
It reflects the disconnect between what the developers see as fun and interesting Hunter options and what the players expect. For most players all that work put into supporting a melee style is work wasted for the simple fact that a melee Hunter is just a Hunter with the interesting, iconic, central part of it (ranged weaponry) sidelined.
As evidenced by the overwhelming amount of melee Hunter logs 
It’s all the way up to 1/50th of the class representation in the raid. Such momentum!
It doesn’t come out of nowhere. The basis for the complaints were there even before SoD released. People weren’t happy about the state of the Hunter runes. They were mostly unimaginative with a couple runes carrying the whole thing.
Oh, really? Because I rerolled to Mage and I find a bunch of fun and interesting new mechanics that make it far more fun to play. I don’t get that on a Hunter. On that class I instead get era Hunter with more passive damage.
Yea that’s not how that works.
The spell attack table has two components, miss chance and resist chance.
Miss chance is determined by the caster’s level compared to the enemy level. It’s a bit like the melee one, but glancing blows are not a set percentage.
| Level Difference | PvE | PvP |
|---|---|---|
| - 4 | 100% | 100% |
| - 3 | 99% | 99% |
| - 2 | 98% | 98% |
| - 1 | 97% | 97% |
| 0 | 96% | 96% |
| + 1 | 95% | 95% |
| + 2 | 94% | 94% |
| + 3 | 83% | 87% |
| + 4 | 72% | 80% |
| + 5 | 61% | 73% |
As you can see the higher the enemy level compared to yours, the more the spell hit chance changes. Of level is only 4%. That’s easy enough to hit just from talents for affliction spells, if they take that talent. And that’s enough to deal with the early enemies. But the higher the level compared to you, the worse it gets, and once enemies are level 30 it’s a 39% miss chance.
The spell resistance part of the equation is ONLY taken into account by a enemies spell resistance. Now, most enemies don’t have static spell resistance. It’s why spell pen is typically considered a PVP stat, because spell pen only affects a natural resist on an enemy. It doesn’t grant more hit chance at all. So an enemy with 0 spell resistance is unaffected by spell pen. The main reason that trinket is good right now is they added spell resistance to BFD bosses.
The main restriction on melee attack tables is the glancing blows. In addition to miss chances, glancing blows reduce the damage dealt by these attacks a certain percentage of the time. Now hunters get to cheat a bit. Ranged attacks cannot glance, and cannot be dodged or parried. So hunters get a HUGE baseline advantage to damage against higher level targets and targets in general.
Ok, just because you personally don’t care doesn’t mean anything. It exists. A lot of shaman wanted 2-h enhancement support not dual wield. You don’t always get what you want.
It’s hard to say what percentage of hunters are going to and not going to be melee. Support for it just got buffed and likely most hunters wrote it off as weak (it was) but most of the recent logs are showing flanking strike usage on “Marksman” hunters. So at the very least melee weaving is on the rise.
Anyone that didn’t expect melee hunter to be a focus of runes was kidding themselves. All I heard during original vanilla and TBC was melee hunter this and melee hunter that. And I heard it again in era.
As evidenced by the posts on these forums. Which you could look at if you cared to.
Well there is a serious lack of conversation about it, then it explodes post nerf. Very convenient.
Elaborate.
Then maybe SoD hunter isn’t for you. I don’t know what more to tell you. I like how the complaints for hunter are “We just have a different instant ability to press” which is essentially the vast majority of every melee rune.
I love when people are like gushing about paladins, that middle of the road dps spec even WITH all their runes, which got two instant attacks and exorcist.
There’s no new seal mechanics, the new seal we did get is basically just seal of blood. Just damage and mana regen. There’s new debuffs to manage or resources to control or anything. I guess when you give an instant attack to paladins it’s a whole fancy new mechanic, SUPER WOW, but when it’s given to a hunter super boring. Like what a silly argument.
I truly want all these “Hunters are boring just like era” players to give me a FULL LIST of all the classes + specs that they think Blizzard nailed by giving them some significant mechanical runes and talk specifically about their runes and usage. I am genuinely curious because as someone that currently has 7 different level 25 characters on SoD I have seen the vast majority of them be basically the same only buffed to perform better/less clunky.
Don’t even begin to pretend it’s just me who thinks this way.
Melee Hunter has always been an extremely unpopular concept. It’s the butt of a joke that happens to get a bunch of cheerleaders on the forums with very little actual play. This isn’t just assumption. You can look at participation via warcraftlogs on both retail and SOD, as well as Raider IO on retail.
Blizzard themselves identified melee SV as an unpopular concept among Hunters. Just remember when you’re out there fanboying over it that if you’re arguing that it’s not unpopular among Hunters you’re being even more defensive of it than Blizzard themselves. At least stick to the argument that it’s not popular but still worth representing. We can have a sincere argument on that point. Arguing that it’s actually popular isn’t a serious position.
People also melee weaved in TBC. It doesn’t mean people are open to a melee playstyle. It means it’s a good way to achieve high parses. I’ve also seen high parses that don’t melee weave despite it being objectively more damage, in both TBC and SOD.
If melee ended up doing more damage than ranged it would probably just end up the same as retail, where Survival (the melee spec) is the highest damage of the 3 and has been for a while but it’s still the least played. It would take an enormous lead in damage for more people to play melee, at which point you’d probably have a lot of rightfully angry Hunters that the only ranged weapon based class in the game was turned into yet another physical melee.
Yes because it gets a lot of forum cheerleaders that like to talk it up but don’t actually engage with it. For example: you.
Oh, really?
It’s a very common talking point in Hunter discussions. I also linked to you a post that came long before the nerfs, in fact before SoD even released.
Most of their runes are active additions. I’ve had a lot of fun levelling one with Regeneration, Living Bomb, and Living Flame. It feels like a much advanced version of the classic class with a lot of new gameplay options. I don’t get that from Hunter.
Yes, you’re right. It’s not. I get a more fun experience out of literally any other iteration of the class. So I rerolled to mage; a ranged DPS they seem to be actually engaged enough in to innovate. Also the cool new thing is at least a new role and not just a handicapped boring version of the same class (lol melee Hunter).
I love when people are like gushing about paladins, that middle of the road dps spec even WITH all their runes, which got two instant attacks and exorcist.
I’m sure that has nothing to do with the actual poor performance of melee hunters in the past or the present. It’s not like there’s a history of players being wrong about mechanics due to poor perception COUGH AUGMETNATION EVOKERS COUGH
I like how in that quote they are like “Yea it’s unpopular, but that’s not always what matters”. Pretty sure the point of SoD is to make new stuff for people to try out and create options. Not every option has to be super popular. Mutilate rogues are niche as well. But it exists.
And yet it is still a different way of playing the hunter. Which is the point.
Never talked it up. I don’t like hunters, I think they are boring and always have been. It’s my literal least favorite class to engage with. Which is why I find it so funny people are complaining about it being boring. Like duh. But I can still be objective in my arguments. I don’t have a problem with adding some more to the runes or something. But you’re kidding yourself if you think there’s going to be some massive class overhaul.
All of those examples are post nerf. You didn’t read my argument at all.
A single new gameplay option, in the form of the healing runes. There are absolutely new abilities on the hunter. I just find these “I don’t like these runes” to be a very subjective argument. Especially when it’s just a few of the same hunters on the forums complaining. I’ve heard nothing but high praise from the hunter players actually in game. But that’s all anecdotal. I don’t know what to do about your personal enjoyment in the class.
Except perhaps Classic. you know, the version of hunter this is based off. If you didn’t like Classic hunter, I wouldn’t expect you to like SoD hunter.
So right now we have healing mage, which yea is one of the few SoD impacts that I see as being a significant gameplay change. And we have fire mage, which was always crit, dot, aoe. And we have two runes that double down on dot and aoe. Is there something special about Living Bomb and Living flame that makes them unique to general mage gameplay such as Arcane Explosion spam and what not? Other than just being more damage?
Like don’t get me wrong, I imagine they are fun to press. But I’m not really seeing the argument that they fundamentally transform mages gameplay. They just double down on already established mage things. The healing runes are the major gain.
How about I give you this. I think the single worst thing they did was make the hunter taunt rune a pet thing. I think they should have taken the melee hunter runes and made it into a hunter tank instead, as survival is kind of the defensive tree. Make the hunter an actual melee tank. New way to play, hunters have a reason to spec into survival, gives usage to a lot of under used abilities.
And instead of being moronic about it and focusing the tanking on the pet, it’s on the hunter. Like the reason the hunter pets being SO tanky ,aside from PVP issues which is a smaller thing, was so bad is really that hunter pets were better tanks than actual players, which is never a good thing and exceedingly boring. You never want an entire specialized role to be relegated to what amounts to an NPC.