Havoc 9.2.5 ATTENTION

Havoc is in a stable place in ST. Not the best, not thr worst, slightly above average. Thats not what this post is about.

Havoc was designed in such a way that most of our abilities cleave. We were designed as an aoe/cleave spec. We no longer have that niche.

Blade dance is tuned so poorly it doesn’t do any damage unless you talent into first blood, even then its only the primary target that takes damage really. Without FB, but taking DWF conduit, its a tickle at best.

You’ve forced us into playing this chaos strike spam build to have any relevance. Our entire premise is maintaining a dot that does 30% of our damage in ST and AoE. If you take a look at havocs breakdown after a fight, NONE of our abilities actually deal damage, its just this brand dot.

Havoc needs reliable burst damage back, tunings to blade dance, we need our 4pc to actually do something because currently the 4pc doesn’t even give us an extra meta in raid. The 4pc is quite literally ABSOLUTELY USELESS.

2pc is okay, problem here is that BD is tuned so poorly, and venthyr brand does so much damage its not worth casting at all 99% of the time, even in AoE.

Make sinful brand do less damage, and tune havocs actual kit properly so we don’t get out of hand scaling…that or give us the WW treatment and just let us do both good ST and RIDICULOUS AOE.

Honestly, i’ve lost all hope for this team, you are negligent, and you are proving to be more and more incompetent each passing tuning with classes.


they buf monks 2 times in the last last 2 updates, I think the only thing they want is for us to do a reroll class.


I dont agree with that statement at all, heres why:

Havoc is ONLY in a stable place, because of Sinful Brand.

What did I say what a few threads ago? That we are simply ignored and then Blizzard forgets that we exist, and gives us a treat, its Bull**** and I am so sick of it. Im about ready to just quit, and go back to either my Monk or my Hunter, at least they get attention.

Our tier sets, while bad from the start is still not great, and mind you, its not what anyone wanted to be honest, people wanted synergy with Eye Beam. Not Meta. Blade Dance is absolutely f****in useless. OH and lets not forget double lego, we only … rather I only use 1 lego now because I am sick of RNG mechanics, Im full time CA because Chaos Theory is not reliable and Darkglare is only good for Meta Duration and extension. CA takes RNG out of the equation and gives you straight duration on Sinful.

THAT IS NOT GOOD GAMEPLAY. I’m honestly having my doubts now for Dragonflight, with this kind of ignorance, I am scared of what our talents will be.


Monks were in the bottom of ST so…

yeah but they are at the pinnacle of AoE. And giving them this much power in ST also effects their AoE. This is NOT how you properly tune classes.

blizzard is so out of touch they have no idea what buffs effect what anymore. They just blanket buff/aura buff and call it a day, most of the time resulting in severely overbuffed specs. Sometimes that can effect both AoE and ST, sometimes one or the other. Regardless, blizzards “tuning knob” is nothing more than a break the spec knob in a lot of cases

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Monks are not the pinnacle of AoE. Theres tons of specs with similar aoe, maybe lightly less, and a ton of ST like survival and destro. Also how many fights in SoTFO are aoe? I’m not talking about a few adds every now and then im talking about constant aoe that it would take to do meaningful damage. The fact that WW was dead last and shelved by WW mains in mythic proves it needed those buffs. Complaining about a class getting well deserved pve buffs after sitting last in dps doesn’t warrant complaining about your class getting no buffs.

Blizzard does have some questionable nerfs and buffs in their patch notes such as buffing BM for pvp and pve and no nerfs to survival or holy priest for example but overall I would say its not the worst list.

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I completely agree with this. As a substantiating post, SignsofKelani just dropped a video with the latest hotfixes, and none of them concerned havoc. It’s kind of funny where the spec is at compared to where it was in BFA. At least, vengeance is in a good place. Good job, Blizzaaaaaaaaaaard. Pogchamp

Ya, that’s what having a passive 5% damage buff (Chaos Brand) will do to a class.

It’s not Sinful Brand doing 30% of our damage that is why we’re designed for average damage, it’s Chaos Brand doing almost 100% of our damage again.

If a Demon Hunter in raid is doing approximately 32K DPS, and a Warlock is doing 40K. The reality is that the Demon Hunter is responsible for 34K DPS while the Warlock is really only doing 38K on their own.

Warcraft Logs needs a Demon Hunter feel good (feels bad man) filter/display option that calculates out how much damage Chaos Brand is responsible for in a raid where magic damage is far higher than physical.


Sinful literally does 30% of our damage, go check any of my logs in raid i’ll PM you key details if you want too.
regardless of the brand equating to 5% magic damage, at no point should a class not be able to stand on it’s own two feet without that ability. Why on earth should all of our damage rely on an ability that requires good RNG, boss uptime, and on a 45s CD. It makes no sense to have power for a class come directly from one ability, while their actual toolkit does nothing. And it feels awful.
We do tank damage without that ability, it’s sad. literally less than tanks without it, the amount of times i’ve been in a high key and had to save my brand for something and the tank just blasts me out of the water is ridiculous. Also leaving all that power to that ability causes us to have ZERO AoE damage until meta is up…which is on a 4minute cooldown, 3:30 with 4pc. That’s pure insanity


one of the most utility infused specs with ridiculous burst AoE on a short CD. There’s a reason they have been meta for keys for multiple tiers.

I’m not discounting the fact they recieved ST buffs, they were much deserved. But in turn, doing this actually causes their AoE to skyrocket even more. Blizzard doesn’t tune correctly, they turn a knob. They should sit down and figure out how to do things properly, how certain tunings effect other aspects of the spec etc. Instead of just buffing/nerfing things into oblivion without thinking of the consequences.

It is without question at this point that the devs in charge of class design/buffing/nerfing are entirely out of touch with the game, to the point it’s questionable if they even play it.


I could not agree more with the statements above. Havoc needs help. Our strongest ability is a borrowed power (Sinful Brand) and our cleave is non-existent, and even if we use Meta+Sinful Brand on an AoE pack, its still a 4 min c/d.

We were forced into this jerky Fel Rush build too, which is hell in high M+ keys. I need to be able to use an ability without wondering if I’ll clip through a conal attack. Our ST is great, but our AOE and Cleave feels like trash compared to Survival Hunter / any Warlock / Shaman.


Its quite clear at this point that blizzard is looking in the wrong places for buffs/nerfs these days.

Without actually having an understanding of each class and spec, whoever is in charge of nerfs and buffs is merely turning a knob and calling it a day - with little to no context as to what their actions may induce such as over exaggerated consequences or just outright buffs.

The team needs to take a look at “why” certain specs perform better in some areas and not others. And with the current state of the game i dont think its far fetched to say that we can no longer balance around only the raid with the new target caps in place, as it creates severe handicaps more specifically to classes capped in keys, farming old content, or world content where pulls can and are larger on a regular basis.

Not to mention handicapping certain classes overtime forcing them to rely on scaling with borrowed power. Whats going to happen in DF when there is no borrowed power? Unless the team has a deep understanding of each class, not just their favorites, classes will just fall further into being left behind.

Yes monk’s aoe is very good but its not the pinnacle like you claim. Hunters/warlocks do the same aoe with VASTLY more ST and parse higher then monks on keys. I’m not saying monks are bad in regarding aoe, im just saying they received pve buffs because all monks no matter how good parsed dead last in the raid.

Did you read the monk changes? The only aoe ability that received a buff was fists of fury with a 20% buff. The rest of the buffs were to ST damage abilities rsk and blackout kick. What this buff essentially does is bring the spec more in line in ST raid damage and buff it in aoe to better match the true kings of keys (hunters/locks). I do agree with you on what you said, they break specs such as destro and hpriest and leave it overpowered for the entire patch b4 it ends up becoming irrelevant again. You are right on the money there, my only issue was the person who commented about monks getting buffed twice and using that as a comparison for DH receiving no changes.

My gripe isnt with monks buffs.

Blizzard stated themselves in the notes for the current buffs rhey wanted to bring specs falling behind in AoE more in line.

Havoc has ZERO AoE damage at the moment outside of a 4 minute cooldown that applies sinful brand (not even out own damage from the class) to all targets hit. Dh itself does no damage during meta, we just extend the thing that does damage (not our own ability) with eyebeam.

When not in meta, we do prio damage to one target (with sinful brand) because the rest of our abilities do absolutely nothing in terms of damage.

Go take a look at my logs, youll see for yourself the utter state of havocs actual damaging abilities that come from the class, not a covenant.

Give it some attention.


this is what they think, wonderful

dhs in 9.0 it was complete garbage they just bufed in 9.1 our single target two skills in 10% and inecrease one conduit in 9.1.5 and our aoe damage still sucks .
our tier 4set it does not contribute anything, while other classes the set increases their dps or gives them benefits. ours set only reduces a cd from 4 min to 3:30, in raid boos fights usually i use meta 2 time with out set but with set o surprise still use meta two times(big utility).
its a copy paste on legendary on legion the diference with legion reduce 1s every 30 fury spend now is 1 seg every 60 fury. (https://www.wowhead.com/item=144279/delusions-of-grandeur)
i think devd never read forums, dh dps was destroy the end of bfa and forgotten shadowlands they don’t care about this class.

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It’s actually pretty incredible how bad they are at addressing M+ class tuning. I understand the BDK revert, because nerfing a spec into the ground that someone has invested time into is just bad policy.

What’s baffling is their just complete unwillingness to buff underperforming classes, because of how afraid they are of being too good in the raid.

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100% agree that DH needs some sort of buff. It’s insane that our dmg is baked into a single covenant ability, and even that ability sucks in AoE usually. It’s all but pointless in M+ except for bosses. BUFF BLADE DANCE so we have some actual AOE.


I agree with the Blade Dance. It needs a buff. And to bring back the original Blade Dance (with the 100% dodge at the end - we have alot of things to avoid in M+ melee range). Our Immolation Aura + Fel Rush only works on a fixed timer. Unlike Warrior or other melee dps, we can’t sustain our AoE very well.

I feel if we hit Immolation Aura + Fel Rush, we should be able to hit Blade Dance (with a 100% dodge chance) to avoid any cone attacks that are directed at the tank. Too often I find myself in a tight little hallway with very limited Fel Rush directional options. Particularly S.Depths - the MistDancer mob with its Red Permanent Cone Attack. Another one that comes to mind is the Wild Bucking attack in Tirna Sithe.