Darkshore PTR Changes: The Good and still Bad

The changes to Tyrande's performance in fighting Nathanos on the PTR are, frankly, great. There's no disputing that Nathanos not being able to get a single hit on Tyrande while Nathanos is being empowered by the Val'kyr makes the Night Warrior ritual appear powerful now.

Why do people act like this was the only problem with the Darkshore Warfront quest introduction?

There is good in celebrating positive changes. It is foolish to tell people to stop complaining while other things in the same content are still bad. If the general response from players is "good enough," that's all we will get from Blizzard's efforts as well.

There are at least four remaining problems with the Darkshore Warfront storyline:

  • Sparing Lives:
    • Tyrande Whisperwind says: Teldrassil burned because I chose to spare Saurfang's life.
      Tyrande Whisperwind says: Countless innocents were murdered. Entire families erased in moments.
      Tyrande Whisperwind says: The time for mercy is over.

      Deathstalker Commander Belmont says: Your tree... was just the beginning. This entire shore will fuel our armies.
      Tyrande Whisperwind says: I failed to protect my people, but I will avenge them.
      Tyrande Whisperwind says: Leave him to rot. He does not deserve a clean death.
      Deathstalker Commander Belmont says: You have won... nothing.

    Tyrande leaving Belmont alive after declaring that sparing Saurfang's life was a mistake is the problem. This is still bad, and still makes Tyrande look incompetent.

    A change on the PTR has Tyrande killing all the nameless Forsaken at Belmont's deathcamp instead of just paralyzing them as she does to Belmont. This is not a worthwhile change. It doesn't affect Tyrande's competency, merely her lethality. However, it's not actually a meaningful change of power. How is killing a large number of enemies with a massive magic spell really any more powerful than indefinitely paralyzing them with a massive magic spell? If Belmont still lives regardless, it's not a significant change.

    There was also another change on the PTR to accompany this:
      The Battle for Darkshore (Horde)
      04: Free the Ensnared
      Save Master Apothecary Faranell and Deathstalker Commander Belmont from the Druids of the Branch.

    One could surmise that this change was made for the Forsaken fans who were dismayed at the idea of Belmont dying, as they were complaining that they didn't have many significant Forsaken characters and had fondness for Belmont and thought it detrimental to the Forsaken if Belmont died.

    But Belmont never even shows up in the Horde's introductory quests to the Darkshore Warfront. It has been proposed by other posters, but simply, if Belmont is not going to die, he has no place in this story. Replace him with a generic nameless Forsaken NPC leader unit that Tyrande kills off with the rest of the nameless Forsaken NPCs and leave Belmont out entirely if the Forsaken players don't want him to die.

    That would be ideal, but there's actually an even easier and simpler solution to even that. Remove Tyrande's line about Saurfang. If Tyrande doesn't chastise herself for sparing a life, then her sparing a life immediately after won't read as bafflingly incompetent.

  • Not being able to intervene before Night Elves are risen as undead
    • Tyrande's Ascension Scenario
      Stage 11: The Queen's Pawn
      Intervene before Nathanos raises the fallen as forsaken.

    Why is the Alliance narrative framed again as a goal that will not be met? We already had this in the quest objective of evacuating 982 Darnassian Citizens in 3:00 minute time limit in the mockingly named "A Flicker of Hope" quest. Though Tyrande is shown as more powerful in fighting Nathanos, the stated goal still ends in failure as the Night Elves are risen in undeath. This is especially bad given the one piece of information we have about the Night Warrior before this:
      Necklace with Elune Pendant

      Elune is the primary goddess of the night elves. She is associated with the larger of the two moons, the White Lady. While she is a goddess of peace, she is not a pacifist. One of her aspects is the Night Warrior, who takes the valiant among the dead and sets them riding across the sky as stars.

    I propose the following change: As Tyrande and Malfurion are fighting Nathanos, have Tyrande cast a spell on Night Elf corpses that does what the description reads above as: Have their souls come out and fly off into the sky Team Rocket style and have their corpses despawn, having Tyrande save them from the Forsaken one by one until only Delaryn and Sira's corpses remain. Then when Tyrande goes to channel her saving spell on Delaryn, then have the Val'kyr use mind control spell on Tyrande to stop her and stun her long enough to at least raise Delaryn and Sira, and then have Tyrande kill the Val'kyr. This would make the Alliance side feel far less like failure, and more just not being able to save everyone, which is far more reasonable.

  • Sira Moonwarden
    • Sira Moonwarden says: We placed our faith in you.

    Sira Moonwarden and other Night Elves immediate joining the Horde, their very killers, for as unbelievable of reasoning presented or no reasoning at all is still entirely bad. This is especially bad in the light of Before the Storm and Thomas Zelling in the Horde War-campaign clearly showing that those risen as undead do not 100% of the time immediately change their entire personalities are become negative image versions of their former living selves.

    My above suggestion would actually help towards this. Sira and Delaryn were generals in charge of other Night Elves. It is to be expected that Tyrande would save the soldiers that had been under their command first, as the Night Elf generals probably would have wanted in life. However, in death, if Sira would somehow be witnessing all this, her soul would probably be extremely anxious and desperate for Tyrande to at least save her from being raised as undead. But that Tyrande wouldn't make it in time again to personally save Sira, this would probably be enough to break Sira's mind and leave her as the husk of loathing we see leading as the Horde's general in the Warfront proper. Which might already be the case, but far more nuance would have to be put in how this is present than what we are given in game - on the Alliance side. While the nuance would, I'm sure, be appreciated by Forsaken fans, if it is Horde exclusive it still leaves the Alliance side narrative unpalatable.

    Delaryn joining the Forsaken I actually have no problem with, given her feelings towards Elune and Tyrande standing before her as Elune incarnate, and on top of that Delaryn's story still feeling unfinished and so I reserve judgement on it until I see more of it.

  • Indefinite Stalemate
    • Tyrande Whisperwind says: The time has come to reclaim our home.

    Which leads me to the most important problem. This is a Warfront. Gameplay wise. This is not a win. This is at best a stalemate eternally basking under a monument to Sylvanas' depravity and ego. Blizzard is probably wanting of moving on from the Night Elves' story and moving on to other focuses in BfA after the Darkshore Warfont. But if this is it, after the War of the Thorns, after A Good War and Elegy, after Warbringer: Sylvanas, after "Old Solider", after the Burning of Teldrassil, if the Night Elf story dead-ends with the Darkshore Warfront, that will be completely unacceptable. And to preempt anyone calling for the Night Elves to lose and have take it as a positive so they can go relocate on the Eastern Kingdoms, that is even more unacceptable. If this is the end of the Night Elves' story in BfA, though the changes in the PTR definitely make Tyrande look fittingly powerful, it all would not have been worth it, and I'd rather the Night Elves' story had been left with the ending of Elegy and the "Azeroth at War: Kalimdor on Fire" mission table descriptions than the Darkshore Warfront.
    1 Like
    If you feel the need to have a separate thread for this, why not use the ptr forums?
    they need to remove belmont, put a random there to be killed, no one would care.
    and tyrande would not be an idiot for saying "no mercy.. except for this one".

    just kill him you idiot, he will be rescued and keep killing nelfs in the name of sylvanas.

    10/25/2018 05:26 PMPosted by Amadis
    Indefinite Stalemate


    this really sucks, no one wants a permanent stalemate, blizzard said that 8.1 we would continue tyrande story but that's it? just 40 minutes of quest?
    no definitive victory?
    she is not even present post zuldazar to know what the hell tyrande is doing? and we will have to wait until 8.2 or blizzcon to know more about that?

    that is garbage.
    Warfronts will have canonical outcomes. Otherwise the story wouldn't progress.
    10/25/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Mythlor
    Warfronts will have canonical outcomes. Otherwise the story wouldn't progress.


    Like how battlegrounds have canonical outcomes?
    10/25/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Mythlor
    Warfronts will have canonical outcomes. Otherwise the story wouldn't progress.
    I'm sad to hear that Danath Trollbane, Turalyon, and Muradin Bronzebeard all died.

    8.1 (and BFA in general) still has horrendous writing, but Blizz did address the NUMBER ONE complaints of Alliance and Horde at least.
    10/25/2018 05:49 PMPosted by Arlifrex
    10/25/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Mythlor
    Warfronts will have canonical outcomes. Otherwise the story wouldn't progress.


    Like how battlegrounds have canonical outcomes?


    I mean, broadly? They do.

    They're not the outcomes that we played a lot of the time because those are just designed to be fun end points for a round of gameplay. But over the years Blizz has clarified on battleground outcomes before, even if it was just the say that they ended "indecisively."
    10/25/2018 05:54 PMPosted by Hahahahahaha
    10/25/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Mythlor
    Warfronts will have canonical outcomes. Otherwise the story wouldn't progress.
    I'm sad to hear that Danath Trollbane, Turalyon, and Muradin Bronzebeard all died.

    8.1 (and BFA in general) still has horrendous writing, but Blizz did address the NUMBER ONE complaints of Alliance and Horde at least.
    Thaaaat's... no. That's not how that works. One side winning does not mean any of the commanders die. C'mon, you're better than this. We've had eighteen threads about it already.
    10/25/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Mythlor
    Warfronts will have canonical outcomes. Otherwise the story wouldn't progress.

    They already do as of 8.1 The alliance is winning on all fronts.
    They need to add a Horde-only achievement for letting Tyrande beat on Nathanos and I'll be satisfied. Have her appear behind him after the darkness and say "Nothin personnel, Blightcaller."
    10/25/2018 05:29 PMPosted by Arlifrex
    If you feel the need to have a separate thread for this, why not use the ptr forums?

    I mostly engage with the Story Forums. I also posted this in Ilthen's thread on the General Forums. It may be useful to post this on the PTR forums as well, you maybe be right on that.

    But as I said, I engage with the Story Forums, and here - to give the benefit of the doubt, borne defensively in response to an aggressive post suggesting Horde favoritism - this is the current atmosphere on the Darkshore changes:

    10/25/2018 03:10 PMPosted by Droité
    They did do adjustments to the Darkshore Tyrande story. Tyrande is portrayed as extremely potent as of the current PTR quest, she's just also not so unreasonably strong that she's about to solo the entire Horde by herself. The tone has also apparently shifted to make it more apparent that Nathanos is just barely holding on, even with being a higher tier undead (like he is) and having a PRIME Val'kyr buff.
    10/25/2018 03:10 PMPosted by Nioruf
    Didn't they just change things so that Tyrande dominates in the fight against Nathanos despite him being empowered by two Val'kyr giving him a visible, major buff?
    10/25/2018 03:13 PMPosted by Cannibal
    10/25/2018 03:06 PMPosted by Hahahahahaha
    They fixed the biggest Alliance 8.1 complaint too: Tyrande is a lot better now after her transformation. She 1 shots all Forsaken until Nathanos, who is empowered by 2 Valks, and the instant Tyrande nukes one, Nathanos flees in fear.
    It's for real, but no, the complaining will never end.

    This is the Story Forum.
    10/25/2018 03:13 PMPosted by Baljin
    They literally changed the Tyrande scenario too....
    10/25/2018 04:17 PMPosted by Yersynia
    They made a host of changes specifically to address the complaints that were levelled. Like, they made the exact changes that many were suggesting, not just to correct lore errors, but to fix the perception of Tyrande as weak and Nathanos as overpowered.

    If you notice, none of these address any of the points I highlighted, and leaving the conclusion that the changes that made Tyrande look better against Nathanos should be good enough for people would be a matter of complacency as a person who posts mostly in these Story Forums.
    10/25/2018 05:49 PMPosted by Arlifrex
    10/25/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Mythlor
    Warfronts will have canonical outcomes. Otherwise the story wouldn't progress.


    Like how battlegrounds have canonical outcomes?


    Well two battlegrounds did have canonical outcomes. The night elves won Warsong Gulch, at least until pre-BfA. Tol Barad was a stalemate and both sides abandoned it.
    Posted this up on the PTR Forums, as per suggestion:

    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769698267

    For perhaps interesting note, PTR Forums has a 5,000 character limit on posts.
    If they just don't go through with Sira and Delaryn, I'd be semi-ok with what we have now. Not ecstatic, but I could live with it.
    Sira is definitely set in stone already, given everything they've put into her being one of the Warfront generals. Delaryn... frankly, I agree with you, but we don't even know what they want to do with her at all yet, since she isn't involved in the Warfront as far as I've seen in testing yet.
    10/25/2018 05:49 PMPosted by Arlifrex


    Like how battlegrounds have canonical outcomes?


    I know these forums love to peddle in false equivalences but, even though some players have pointed out that they have had canonical outcomes, battlegrounds are of little actual impact on the story and so can't really be compared. Warfronts are actually story-driven and it's pretty clear their story purpose is to allow the player to participate in an "RTS mission" which will end up having a canonical outcome.

    Case in point: Freeing Belmont. That's a Horde objective.

    In fact based on the PTR it's apparent that the Alliance win Stromgarde or at least are winning.
    10/25/2018 07:39 PMPosted by Mythlor
    Case in point: Freeing Belmont. That's a Horde objective.

    That objective doesn't even make sense. One week it will be Sira leading the Horde for the Darkshore Warfront, the time after will be Nathanos. Does Belmont get paralyzed again in the Alliance Warfront? Or does he just mysteriously end up stuck again without any explanation, despite the narrative presenting that as a new turn lead by different people?

    Also, in general, I don't put any stock into the idea of a canon outcome for the Warfronts. At the very least, not beyond lip service, as I do not expect Blizzard to put a third layer of phasing on top of the Warfronts and on top of the still accessible leveling quest content in the same zones.
    10/25/2018 07:39 PMPosted by Mythlor
    10/25/2018 05:49 PMPosted by Arlifrex


    Like how battlegrounds have canonical outcomes?


    I know these forums love to peddle in false equivalences but, even though some players have pointed out that they have had canonical outcomes, battlegrounds are of little actual impact on the story and so can't really be compared. Warfronts are actually story-driven and it's pretty clear their story purpose is to allow the player to participate in an "RTS mission" which will end up having a canonical outcome.

    Case in point: Freeing Belmont. That's a Horde objective.

    In fact based on the PTR it's apparent that the Alliance win Stromgarde or at least are winning.

    THe alliance wins darkshore too, the lines about the alliance wining on all fronts is at the end of the story in 8.1 that said, blizzard isnt going to show this in game, in like changing the zones.
    10/25/2018 05:35 PMPosted by Etheldald
    they need to remove belmont, put a random there to be killed, no one would care.
    and tyrande would not be an idiot for saying "no mercy.. except for this one".


    It´s quite underwhelming how devs ignored Belmont as the obvious Forsaken choice in Legion and just decided to give an extra cartoonish villain bat to him now... if you ask me this smells as pettines for us calling them up on the lore disaster that is Lilian Voss and how much some of us hated to have her in our Class Hall as follower.
    10/25/2018 08:44 PMPosted by Ariël
    10/25/2018 05:35 PMPosted by Etheldald
    they need to remove belmont, put a random there to be killed, no one would care.
    and tyrande would not be an idiot for saying "no mercy.. except for this one".

    It´s quite underwhelming how devs ignored Belmont as the obvious Forsaken choice in Legion and just decided to give an extra cartoonish villain bat to him now... if you ask me this smells as pettines

    If it was pettiness wouldn't they have killed him instead of letting you save him?