Alterac Valley in Classic

[Galbados-twisting-nether]

The only AV I ever played in vanilla, was 1.12, as I made a late push to get this character to 60 before TBC released, just to say I hit max level before the expansion.

We had quick AV’s back then, and we had slower AV’s. I remember some taking at most 10 mins, and some taking a few hours. When AV launches however, it won’t be after two years of players gathering gear, and I think we won’t have CRBG to start with (like 1.12 AV did in vanilla), so I ponder if this will have an effect of making AV’s not be zerg fests.

[Cubic-emerald-dream]

Fact, blizzard started changing AV pretty much from the start until 1.11(1.11 being the most stable version until reinforcements).

Fact: AV was receiving buffs through patch 1.7

Fact, later versions of AV saw much more partcipation whether you look at raw numbers or look at percentage of people BGing than earlier version.

Fact: Participation != Enjoyment
Fact: More people were fully leveled by 1.12
Fact: Players were better geared by 1.12
Fact: Players had more powerful talents by 1.12
Fact More players had epic mounts by 1.12

Fact, in this thread blizzard has said they consider the changes made by 1.12 improvements.

Fact: They also think BFA is good and that Diablo 4 on mobile is good.
Fact: Ion wrongly believes that Participation = Enjoyment.

[Cubic-emerald-dream]

Not always but then again sometimes is, millions of people leveled in vanilla, are you saying that because leveling in vanilla had such high participation it was unenjoyable?

Are you saying that since more players were playing more AVs that it means it was more enjoyable?

I am saying what I am saying.
Participation != Enjoyment

[Galbados-twisting-nether]

Fact: Participation != Enjoyment
Fact: More people were fully leveled by 1.12
Fact: Players were better geared by 1.12
Fact: Players had more powerful talents by 1.12
Fact More players had epic mounts by 1.12

This actually ties into what I posted just above this post. People will be going into AV when it launches with, on the whole, far less gear, and less flushed out level 60’s. Infact, if you think about it, 1.12 would have only had a similar experience on a newer(ish) server back in 2006.

[Cubic-emerald-dream]

Participation may not equal fun, but it’s far more likely to equal return on investment.

And we as customers should care about the ROI because…?

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

Fact: AV was receiving buffs through patch 1.7

Right so not even 1.5 AV was any good and last a grand total of 2 patch. Don’t know where people get the idea that it was 1.5 AV then suddenly everything changed in 1.12(actually 1.11)

Fact: Participation != Enjoyment
Fact: More people were fully leveled by 1.12
Fact: Players were better geared by 1.12
Fact: Players had more powerful talents by 1.12
Fact More players had epic mounts by 1.12

And how do you know they based it off raw numbers instead of participation percentages.

[Cubic-emerald-dream]

Fact: Participation != Enjoyment
Fact: More people were fully leveled by 1.12
Fact: Players were better geared by 1.12
Fact: Players had more powerful talents by 1.12
Fact More players had epic mounts by 1.12

This actually ties into what I posted just above this post. People will be going into AV when it launches with, on the whole, far less gear, and less flushed out level 60’s. Infact, if you think about it, 1.12 would have only had a similar experience on a newer(ish) server back in 2006.

From 1.12 onward, the most efficient way to win AV was by zerging. That truth has been ingrained into every modern player of AV over the past 10 plus years. It does not take flushed out L60s to succeed in that tactic, and that tactic will be utilized each and every AV.

[Cubic-emerald-dream]

Right so not even 1.5 AV was any good and last a grand total of 2 patch. Don’t know where people get the idea that it was 1.5 AV then suddenly everything changed in 1.12(actually 1.11)

AV began receiving huge nerfs starting in patch 1.8, when marks of honor appeared.

I have not pushed for 1.5, but rather “early AV”, including all of the original content/stats, and all bug fixes.

[Postino-hakkar]

From 1.12 onward, the most efficient way to win AV was by zerging. That truth has been ingrained into every modern player of AV over the past 10 plus years. It does not take flushed out L60s to succeed in that tactic, and that tactic will be utilized each and every AV.

I agree. 5 to 15 minutes games will be norm when 90+% of your raid can safely ride all the way from entrance to final GY pretty much unimpeded.

[Cubic-emerald-dream]

And how do you know they based it off raw numbers instead of participation percentages.

Neither are a metric to gauge enjoyment.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

Fact: Ion wrongly believes that Participation = Enjoyment.

Actually I’ll address this separately, Ion right now believes that the way to increase participation is to adjust rewards instead of improving the content.

The changes to AV were the exact opposite, the content was improved.

[Galbados-twisting-nether]

From 1.12 onward, the most efficient way to win AV was by zerging. That truth has been ingrained into every modern player of AV over the past 10 plus years. It does not take flushed out L60s to succeed in that tactic, and that tactic will be utilized each and every AV.

I agree. 5 to 15 minutes games will be norm when 90+% of your raid can safely ride all the way from entrance to final GY pretty much unimpeded.

I still ponder. I’m not here to argue, only throw out thoughts. On live in BFA, this is not the case. I can’t remember the last time Alliance just zerged to Drek and won. Every match is basically Horde defending IBT and IBGY, and making Alliance adjust the strat. I’d say more BGs turn into turtles than not for live.

What changed from 1.12 to now? I thought 1.12 AV was essentially live AV, with no reinforcements and a few elites still wandering around?

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

From 1.12 onward, the most efficient way to win AV was by zerging. That truth has been ingrained into every modern player of AV over the past 10 plus years. It does not take flushed out L60s to succeed in that tactic, and that tactic will be utilized each and every AV.

I agree. 5 to 15 minutes games will be norm when 90+% of your raid can safely ride all the way from entrance to final GY pretty much unimpeded.

I still ponder. I’m not here to argue, only throw out thoughts. On live in BFA, this is not the case. I can’t remember the last time Alliance just zerged to Drek and won. Every match is basically Horde defending IBT and IBGY, and making Alliance adjust the strat. I’d say more BGs turn into turtles than not for live.

What changed from 1.12 to now? I thought 1.12 AV was essentially live AV, with no reinforcements and a few elites still wandering around?

The people claiming 1.12 AV was nothing but 10 minute rush games are just fear mongerers. Plenty of games in 1.12 AV lasted hours.

[Fateweaver-misha (Fateweaver)]

Participation absolutely equals enjoyment, are you high?

People participated in TBC timewalking.
People did not enjoy participating in TBC timewalking.

Also, go ahead and tell me that (majority of) people enjoy Pathfinder…

[Galbados-twisting-nether]

From 1.12 onward, the most efficient way to win AV was by zerging. That truth has been ingrained into every modern player of AV over the past 10 plus years. It does not take flushed out L60s to succeed in that tactic, and that tactic will be utilized each and every AV.

I agree. 5 to 15 minutes games will be norm when 90+% of your raid can safely ride all the way from entrance to final GY pretty much unimpeded.

I still ponder. I’m not here to argue, only throw out thoughts. On live in BFA, this is not the case. I can’t remember the last time Alliance just zerged to Drek and won. Every match is basically Horde defending IBT and IBGY, and making Alliance adjust the strat. I’d say more BGs turn into turtles than not for live.

What changed from 1.12 to now? I thought 1.12 AV was essentially live AV, with no reinforcements and a few elites still wandering around?

The people claiming 1.12 AV was nothing but 10 minute rush games are just fear mongerers. Plenty of games in 1.12 AV lasted hours.

I know this for fact because I actually played the original AV in 1.12 Vanilla. Some games were quick, no doubt! At the time I was scrambling for AV rep to get an epic before TBC launch (Don Julio’s Band, which was replaced rather quickly to my dismay). Other’s lasted much, much, much longer.

[Galbados-twisting-nether]

Participation absolutely equals enjoyment, are you high?

People participated in TBC timewalking.
People did not enjoy participating in TBC timewalking.

Also, go ahead and tell me that (majority of) people enjoy Pathfinder…

I love TBC timewalking. Its literal timewalking for me, at least. I know those dungeons like the back of my hand.

[Fateweaver-misha (Fateweaver)]

I love TBC timewalking. Its literal timewalking for me, at least. I know those dungeons like the back of my hand.

I understand that some liked it. However, if you check out GD the consensus was not one of enjoyment.

Same with Pathfinder.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

I love TBC timewalking. Its literal timewalking for me, at least. I know those dungeons like the back of my hand.

I understand that some liked it. However, if you check out GD the consensus was not one of enjoyment.

Same with Pathfinder.

Correct that’s because right now the devs only understand using rewards to increase participation.

Instead of the approach they used in vanilla AV, changing bad content.

[Galbados-twisting-nether]

Well, I’d agree. TBC Timewalking lacks CoT Durnholde, so…it kinda fails at putting in the better of the dungeons.

Edit: It does have CoT Black Morass, another favorite of mine though. That was a unique dungeon for the time. Not a sprawler like BRD, but confined, and made efficient time use extremely important.

[Robfried-shadow-council]

You can pull the warmasters in 1.12 outside and tank them while the rest of the raid kills drek its actually easier to zerg without taking towers in 1.12. I would rather have bfa version without reinforcements.

Its not that you cant turtle 1.12 its just the easiest version to zerg in. Plus the map is changed and content taken away such as quests to kill korrak which didn’t spawn right away so you would have teams turtle until he showed to get the items.