Please do not change the original Lore!

General Discussion
484

You argue every post period. the vast majority of posts on this thread are you and me arguing.

That’s just to prove that other people agree with me, to prove that other people care about what I’m saying.

Actually I want you to list your issues with Blizzard, please do because I want to see one thing from you that doesn’t involve defending Blizzard.

485

You think arguments are one-sided?

I can’t exactly argue with myself can I? What do you think you’re doing then, passively accepting everything I say?

486

I’m arguing for the sake of the lore. You’re arguing for the sake of arguing, there’s a difference.

487

Except the lore states that the Dreadlords and Varimathras lost.

This is even solidified within WoW, the canon progression of lore.

So no, you’re not talking lore. You’re talking about a revisionist history where the Dreadlords did not lose. Which I’m absolutely fine with as long as we acknowledge it is not canon.

488

Now you’re just digging up a dead argument that you failed to win. You still didn’t prove my point earlier. Because you were wrong.

Seriously you want another 100 posts of me and you repeating everything we said above and come to the exact same conclusion?

489

Of course none of us can decide what is officially canon, but I don’t see why it should stop us from saying what is incoherent and inconsistent :slight_smile:
Fans do that with all franchises (LOTR, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc). Writers are not perfect, their stories have flaws, (sometimes many, many flaws), and it’s not wrong to point them out nor to worry about lore being retconned with those flaws.

Mmh, are we really gonna resurrect that dreadlord argument? It wasn’t so interesting in the first place :stuck_out_tongue:

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490

I did prove it.

I said any evidence I bring up about Dreadlords would be dismissed by you on the basis that you have built a water-tight argument that the Dreadlords can never lose based on their ability to lie and decieve. You have only reinforced this time and time again. Including referencing Varimathras’ wowwiki page.

491

You proved nothing, I proved all of your arguments wrong. Including that one.

492

I think what Blizzard does doesn’t have to be perfect as long as it’s entertaining.

We can pick and choose what entertains us and what doesn’t and stick to our preferences. That’s why I embrace what Reforged is doing. Even if it comes out and I don’t like it, I can mod it to my liking. Dreadlords don’t have tails - I will mod them back in. Trolls don’t have the hind-toe, I will mod that in. Arthas’ shoulders are 20x too huge, I will mod that to my liking.

And I can release that to the public to use as well if I want. As can others. That’s the beauty of it. We can all play Warcraft: Armies of Azeroth if we don’t like Reforged.

I own a lot of the novels, comics and RPG books too. A lot of it is rendered non-canon, but there are certain elements from the external media that was way better planned out than the original.

I’m actually a big fan of the WC3 Alpha, when we had 6 Heroes per race. Spirit Walker and Warlord for Orcs, Crusader and Ranger for Humans, the Abomination and Necromancer were still heroes for the Undead and there was an Arch Druid hero for the Night Elves. I wish we could have seen that version of War3 too; and tbh we can through custom mapping.

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493

You call WOW’s drivel entertaining?

I’m just sick of how Blizzard is treating the Warcraft series, honestly… I’m also sick of how many people defend this knowing that WOW changed the entire lore for gameplay reasons, refusing to accept that people can see an issue with it.

494

Yes, I do, because it’s called having a different opinion.

You treat your opinion as objective truth. You call it drivel.

And you wonder why people argue with you?

But no, I don’t enjoy all of it. There are good and bad parts of WoW lore like anything else. War3 is no exception; Horde turning good was a terrible revision. Just the same, Night Elves on Alliance and the watering-down of Druids was terrible too. I hate what they did to the matriarchal society too; there should be male-only druids and female-only warrior/priests. And no arcane magic.

But WoW also brought in some really good stuff. Vrykul and the San’layn are welcome additions. I love the Old Gods and the Silithids and the whole War of the Shifting Sands. I really enjoy what they did with the Loa and expanding the Island Troll voodoo lore. It’s not all good, it’s not all bad.

2 Likes
495

You haven’t even given an opinion until now, you’ve just come here to tell me that I’m wrong.

Additions to the lore are one thing, retcon is another.

496

I’m gonna start with one that really boils your goose right off the bat.

  1. Was really hoping for Diablo 2 Remastered over Warcraft 3 Remastered at BlizzCon.
  2. Diablo 3 had its own angles and aspects that it worked to a degree but especially with Reaper of Souls hitting the game like a truck (and ultimately improving it, but to an awkward degree) I don’t like that it was a loot pinata game where the only thing that mattered was uniques and sets. Rather than Diablo 2 being more of a treasure hunting game where the items you find and use along the way are good and there’s lots of rungs on the ladder until you get your “best” items.
  3. Overwatch characters are abysmally frustrating because while they’re really fun to play as, fighting against them feels like pulling teeth sometimes.
  4. Sunsetting Heroes of the Storm instead of maybe trying to push it harder than before feels like a mistake and, despite being out for 3 and a half years, that it could’ve been way more successful. Especially when it’s a game meant to celebrate all Blizzard material.
  5. This might be me speaking from an amateur hour place but Legacy of the Void feels a bit too fast what with the increased workers at the start. I’m sure getting into the nitty gritty of it, it does promote higher level play overall because it trains you more to the snap-reactions and decision making from scouting and reading your opponent and getting your openings and builds down.
  6. Despite having a record year in 2018, the laying off of those 800 employees where a lot of them (tournament folk, GMs, public relations, that whole sort) were bridging the gap between the company and the community. When Blizzard was already having a huge amount of communication issues prior and it really doesn’t seem to be improving at all (shocker) since then.
  7. In an ideal world, the writers come up with the major story beats and narrative for the World of Warcraft expansions. This unfortunately isn’t the case so it’s left to the story team to slap bandages and make weak or outright awkward connections between all those points. Hence BFA’s current state.
  8. There is absolutely WAY too much time gating for such minimal content in World of Warcraft.
  9. Hearthstone really stopped being interesting to play (or even watch when I was starting to fall off the train) several expansions/adventures ago. Which is a shame because it still does retain a lot of fun and charm but that’s mostly in the visuals and audio for me now.
  10. They really shouldn’t have cut official support for the Heroes of the Storm tournament scene as abruptly as they did.
  11. Them polling Hearthstone players about how they feel about THEIR professional scene really doesn’t bode well.
  12. World of Warcraft is just an old game now. I was hoping Legion was their last expansion, I hope Battle For Azeroth is, and they move on to fresher, greener pastures and develop a World of Warcraft 2 with more interesting gameplay and looser class design without the homogenization that’s really kind of blurred it.

These ones are just all off the top of my head right now, so. Eat my shorts, dog.

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497

Except you view what you don’t agree with as retcons; like the Dreadlords losing.

And you don’t view Orcs being good guys as retcon because you don’t have problems with it.

Besides, you didn’t care to listen to my opinion. You never asked for it, nor do I honestly think you would care if I told you. We were well beyond discussing opinions considering you were trying to push your narrative as fact.

498

Orcs became good guys the moment that Warcraft became a story driven game and the orcs having that history is still very plausible. We didn’t know what they were like before they came through the dark portal. Besides, the fact that Medivh, the guy who brought them in was summoning demons is kinda suspicious in itself… almost as if he has something to do with the orcs being the way they are… or at least a connection. Daemons were in Warcraft 1 you know…

Sylvanas joining the Horde would never happen because it goes against the Horde’s constitution. They won’t work with undead because of what the power that makes undead did to their homeland. Nor would they have any interest to begin with.

499

And is a retcon. Which is no different than the plausible scenarios of WoW which I’ve also illustrated and made examples of with Kael’thas above.

Did Kael’thas die after WC3? Or did he run away? Or did he turn evil? All is a possibility once you consider WoW is a game about players vs NPCs and Kael’thas turning evil and forcing the BE’s into the Horde is just as much a possibility as him joining the Horde himself. Blizzard so happened to choose a more dark, twisted approach based on what they think fans would be interested in seeing.

I’m a big Kael’thas fan, so I didn’t like the outcome whatsoever. But you know, it’s not my story.

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500

But Warcraft 2 was not a story driven game, it was just an RTS with mission objectives and a manual with a vague idea of what the world is like. The game was too abstract to argue that the lore changes really mattered.

Warcraft 3 on the other hand fully fleshed out the lore, retconning warcraft 3 is nonsensical and really ruins the connection that the player had to the world of the game that the story carefully built.

Warcraft 1 and 2 also had multiple endings so only one of them can be canon. The rest would have to be retconned out.

501

Of course it’s nice to be able to mod the game. But wouldn’t it be better if Blizzard had done things right from the beginning? (and by that, I mean creating a coherent lore without continuous retcons)
All of us can’t mod the game. I, for example, have no skill in modeling whatsoever.

I think Reforged could have been a great opportunity to give the Warcraft universe a new fresh start. And then we could imagine a Warcraft 4 or a WoW 2 which would pick up where TFT has stopped, as we mentionned earlier. I’m afraid that’s not gonna happen :stuck_out_tongue:

Yes, WoW has brought great stuff. I love the Old Gods and the Silithids too, and the Dark Iron and all the story about Blackrock Spire, and the Defias, and many more. These things were nice additions, and didn’t imply retcons, that’s why I enjoy them.

About Orcs turning good: I don’t see it as a problem, although I see what you mean, being a huge WC2 fan myself. I’m not bothered with it because it’s still plausible: the explanation that was provided is coherent, and thus the lore can move on. It’s not really a retcon in my opinion, it’s just an evolution of the scenario, because it doesn’t imply to change something from the previous games. Orcs were savage in WC1 and WC2, that wasn’t changed; but now, we know why.
The only flaw I see (maybe you have more, I’m curious) is about internment camps and Doomhammer becoming a good guy. It’s not totally bad, but it’s too “easy”, imho.

502

The campaign was story driven, there is no arguing that. The only difference is you had two parallel stories at once. If there was no story, then Lothar wouldn’t have died or Gul’dan would never have betrayed the Horde and we wouldn’t have any setup at all in WC3.

WC3 does not work in a bubble. It’s built on WC2. So while it wasn’t a story-driven game, the campaign was a story-driven narrative and that can not be disputed. It also was not abstract to the point where Orcs would ever be considered good-guys.

I honestly ask you- based on Warcraft 2 alone, could the Orcs ever be considered good guys?

503

Warcraft 1’s story: The orcs are attacking X build your base and fight against the orcs.

Sure there are a few missions like “You must save lothar from the Dead Mines” but they were few and far between, plus you were just getting a mission briefing, not actual characters interacting with dialogue in a cinematic.

Warcraft 2 was very much the same, mission objectives “Go find oil to build boats so we can use them to attack humans”

There was lore, yes but very little in terms of story.

Warcraft 3 was all about the story. It had cutscenes after nearly every single mission and characters with an identity. It was all fleshed out.

The WOW comes out and pushes the lore characters aside in favor of player avatars.

Based on Warcraft 2, the orcs could most certainly be considered good guys, people don’t do evil things without a reason… nothing is ever black/white. Heck you even get to play as the orcs and see their struggles.