I also don’t have a problem with the Orcs being honourable today. It’s just not my personal vision of what Orcs are or should be, and even WoW has its moments going back on itself by having the Horde do bad things (though always explained later as being misguided or under false pretenses for war). I think if they had just adopted the Blackrock style and kept its course, the story wouldn’t be anywhere as convoluted. Warhammer is the best example of this.
But if we don’t consider this a retcon and consider it just an evolution of a scenario, then honestly what is happening in Reforged is also an evolution. By all means we don’t know the extent of ‘retcons’. Green eyes is a retcon… or is it just something that wasn’t well represented in the original War3? This is all subjective IMO.
My point is that there’s a differrence between retconning for the sake of fleshing out characters and retconning for gameplay reasons.
There’s also a differrence between convoluted and depth. Adding more orcish clans added depth to the story, making Sylvanas a member of the horde is convoluted, to the point that they had to retcon the lore for it to make sense.
But you’re dismissing the story on the basis that there was little of it. You used terms like abstract; yet there was nothing abstract about Lothar dying.
Yet what was written into WC2? Doomhammer honourably fought Lothar because he was painted as an honourable Orc whom Thrall looked up to. We can’t have Doomhammer using dirty ambush tricks as a role model for Thrall, right?
Based on War2, the Orcs conquered for the sake of conquering. Yes, Orcs do evil things without a reason because they are Orcs; whether they are of the LOTR variety or Warhammer variety which these are derived from. That is the whole history of Orcs in fantasy. Warcraft 3 was the first time this trope was broken, and War3 was the first time we saw the black and white being pitched as morally grey.
Abusive internment camps did not exist in WC2. They existed in WC3 as a means to show a dark side of Humanity. This is as much of an evolution as Forsaken joining the Horde. You either dismiss it or you accept it. I don’t think you get to pick and choose.
Yes, I think we should wait until we hear more about that kind of stuff, then we can pick up with this discussion If Blizzard reads their forum, at least now they know that many of us are worried about retcons. Now, wait and see
I don’t know if they were abusive, but internment camps did exist in WC2 Beyond the Dark Portal. It’s in the manual.
About Forsaken in the Horde… That’s something I always hated
How on earth can you compare the internment camps with the forsaken joining the Horde!?
The internment camps were plausible, the forsaken joining the Horde is not plausible.
I’d also like to add that you’re making an assumption that the orcs are made into “good guys” when you’re forgetting that in Warcraft 3, Grom Hellscream murdered Cenarius… and countless humans/elves. Things are not as Black/White as you make them out to be.
You can’t just say it’s not plausible because you happen not to agree with it.
Trump is the president. That is a plausibility. What do you say to the person who says it’s not plausible despite it actually happening? Get real.
RE: Grom - and it was seen as a demon-influenced mistake. They blamed this event entirely on the demons. I didn’t say Orcs were infallible, I said they were painted as the good guys, and that’s what War3 did. Even moreso with Rexxar’s campaign.
About as plausible as it is for a bunch of demon tainted monsters (orcs) to band together with dark ritualistic cannibals (trolls) and somehow those two groups of people find common ground with shamanistic, earthy nomads that just want to be left alone (tauren).
By nature of the Tauren accepting them into their fold for being outcasts who are rejected by their former societies; an attribute that the Horde has been built on considering the Orc’s former history as demon-corrupted war mongerers.
Is it a natural progression? No. Is it plausible? In the same way that anything is plausible because Blizzard was able to turn evil Orcs into good guys by blaming demon curse? Yes.
I think you are confusing plausible with ‘making common sense’. I am not arguing the latter. Though as you also explain, War3 itself doesn’t keep consistency considering Sylvanas went from RoC Elf who just runs away into TFT Sylvanas omgwtfplotarmor
I’m with Mephistroth on the Forsaken thing.
When you play TFT campaign, you can’t possibly imagine that Sylvanas would be willing to join the Horde. It’s obvious that she doesn’t seek revenge only, but power too, and she’ll use all means necessary. And you can’t possibly imagine that the Horde will accept the Forsaken within their ranks, because of the druidism and shamanism being so opposite to the darkess of the dead, and because Lordaeron is so far away from Durotar. They don’t have anything in common.
The trolls helped the orcs because they had similar agendas, they both wanted to defeat the Elves, at the time the humans were powerful and the horde needed allies.
The Tauren joined the Horde because Thrall helped them and they share similar values on the world to Thrall’s people.
There’s a bonus campaign mission in Warcraft 3 that goes over this. The orcs get stuck on an island and the trolls help them. Go play that bonus campaign Exodus Of The Horde, it’s in the custom campaign section of the menu but it’s official lore written by Blizzard.
They share a common interest, when fighting humans then the Sea Witch on the island, after that the demons, and later the Proudmoore menace. I suppose it helps forging bonds
On the other hand, the Forsaken are not even on the same continent, they use dark magic and their leader is eager for power. It’s so against the new Horde’s values.
I think the current state of WOW’s story really shows just how dumb it was for Sylvanas to join the horde with Saurfang saying “I want my Horde back” to Anduin of all people.
Really cracks me up seeing that scene, if I didn’t laugh, I’d cry.
Who is the best candidate for Warchief? Oh yeah, let’s pick the obviously evil looking one, that’s definitely the right choice /sarcasm.
That’s like making Varimathras Warchief… imagine that… it’s funny enough that he was even associated with the Horde to begin with…
It’s obvious that the Forsaken were integrated within the Horde for gameplay reasons, to balance the two factions. The same could be said about the Blood Elves.
It would have been awesome and more lore-friendly to have three factions, but probably impossible to balance.
You could if you consider the original intent was to mold the Forsaken into a Horde-friendly faction. The intent was not to allow them to continue being power-hungry as Sylvanas was; that was just something they never evolved the story for and allowed to continue to exist till today.
The idea was to help them with Druidism and Shamanism. But frankly, all levels of inconsistency exists in WoW and we’re left to suspension of disbelief for most of it. Warlocks in the Horde also make no sense. And yes, Forsaken on the Horde is a thinly veiled lore explanation for an obvious game design reason to ‘play as Undead’.
Yet it’s undeniable that despite being highly unlikely to happen, it happened. I mean just the same I’d argue that Blood Elves are unlikely to join the Horde; but then again the Horde itself was unlikely to ever be ‘good guys’ if Thrall had not existed. Thrall is literally the only reason why good orcs exist, because with his creation came the backstory of ‘shamanistic Orcs from Draenor’. Without his existence, the Orcs of War3 and WoW would be the same ones that we encounter in Blackrock Spire working under Nefarian.
No dude, that’s ridiculous. This is an alliance we are talking about, not a peace treaty. Performing experiments on undead? Might as well just capture one of the scourge’s minions for that.
Warlocks in the horde do make no sense, I’m actually amazed you could even realize this considering your track record another WOW retcon that was terrible and nonsensical.
Blood Elves joining the race that ravaged their homeland back in the second war? How is that plausible in the slightest?
Absolutely. Even in the Alliance, mind you I mean, you can play a warlock, cast shadow and hellfire spells, gather souls, summon demons, and all that in the same party as a paladin or a priest! You can even walk around in the streets with your demon pet.
That could be seen as details only, but to me, details matter
If Blizzard reads their forum, at least now they know that many of us are worried about retcons. Now, wait and see 
