Terran buffs of 2020

General Discussion
81

Archons where indirectly nerfed when EMP upgrade came online.

Dark archons arent even in starcraft 2 i dont know what kind of stuff your smoking but it certainly isnt true.

Collosi werent ‘changed’ they where nerfed hardcore. Learn the difference.

It wasnt hated by the community, it was hated by the TERRAN community. Who butchered lategame toss in the process.

And then theres a rant on SCV. Where you completely conveniently forget mules. the most broken racial ability out there.

You can lose an entire workerline and be fine cuz of mules. Thats how powerfull they are. Stating scv shouldnt be treated the same as probes and drones is insane.

Especially considering that it gives terran such a rediculous lead in the harrass focussed LotV expansion. Its insane you believe this is fine.

82

Archons were not directly nerfed in any way. That change affects all other Protoss units just as much as Archons.

You are apparently too stupid to understand the point then.

Feedback was explicitly balanced for a unit more than twice as expensive as a High Templar. It was copied to the High Templar without changes, i.e. it was twice as powerful as it should be.

That 50% damage nerf brought Feedback’s damage in line with the High Templar’s cost. That change that should’ve been made the moment that Feedback was given to the High Templar.

Colossus were improved against light units and nerfed against everything else. Yes that is a net nerf in practice, but the purpose of that nerf was to move the Colossus into a more specialized role.

The Colossus was complained about by Protoss, Terran, and Zerg players alike.

The unit was hated the unit because it changes the way that the rest of the Protoss army operates, more or less focused on building a mass of Colosuss protected by anti-air at all times.

Mules aren’t even relevant to the discussion.

You complained about Oracles, specifically Oracles had been nerfed to 3-shot SCVs while they two-shot other workers; and I explained the reasons for that change.

It’s not my fault you don’t know how to read a post.

In the early game Terran cannot, this is where taking surviving two hits from Adepts or Oracles with 1 health and taking an extra hit from Hellions and Widow Mines actually matters.

In the late-game, Terran can make up for lost workers with Mules, but only if they have a lot of spare energy left-over. That implies one or both of two scenarios:

  1. Terran was already making a lot of extra Orbitals with the intention to sack SCVs. You just did the job for them.
  2. Terran cut Mules for a long period before the harassment. Meaning they already had reduced income and a reduced bank before they lost those SCVs.

Protoss and Zerg both have faster worker production than Terran, so assuming the same number of command structures they can recover lost income faster than Terran, except for the portion of income provided by Mules which becomes a baseline over time as long as expansions are not denied and Orbitals are not destroyed.

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83

These buffs were necessary and there were some nerfs so atleast don’t lie. If balance team would finally nerf the two most OP and most annoying zerg cards which are swarm hosts (especially VS mech) and ultralisks (especially VS bio) then finally we could have a very fun game.

84

10 damage, actually, but otherwise correct.

85

No, I was talking about the ability’s balance point, not the threshold where it starts to take effect.

If Hardened Shields was only balanced for units with bursts of 10 damage or less it would have been removed without any replacement, since any replacement would have made the Immortal overpowered.

Hardened Shields was roughly balance against units that dealt damage in 20 damage bursts, and overpowered in cases where units deal more than that as the mitigation got way out of hand. This fits with the current limit 100 damage absorption provided by Barrier and with the Immortal’s performance against units like Roaches, Ravagers, Marauders, etc in all 3 expansions.

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86

Aaah. Okay, I see. My mistake. I misunderstood that.

87

“The change affects all other protoss units asmuch as archons”

What the flying hell. Do you seriously believe that yourself? A unit made completely out of shields, wich gets its shields stripped away, with no other abilities, extremely short range. And you compare that to other protoss units?

How extremely biased do you want to be.

Feedback was the least used ability of the HT spells. Literally. There was absolutely no reason to nerf it. Literally none. Your entire BW argument is useless because this isnt bw.

The mere idea in WoL, HotS and early on in LotV it literally never gave any problems at all.

When it got nerfed, nobody really cared. Nobody. So. Basically, your theorycrafting BS literally has 0 reasoning to it.

You are insane.

Collosi where nerfed period.

Collosi wasnt complained about in PvP or PvZ. In WoL PvZ was broodlord winfestor. In HotS PvZ was swarmhost spam.

Stating mules arent relevant to the discussion showcase your extreme bias once again.

Harrass is meant to kill eco. Mules give you eco.

You stated all sorts of reasonings why SCV should get the special treatment, except you dont acknowledge Mules existance.

Seriously never comment in this thread again. You are extremely biased and you are this close to straight up lying to everyone in this thread.

88

TerranicII is one of the most moderate and respected members of battlenet forums community ; and his knowledge, including the one he has from SC1, often makes for instructive posts, where the relative strength of units can be put in perspective compared to BW.

The pathfinding (and displacement speed IMO) evolution consequence on the relative strength of AoE in particular was instructive.

Since you seem to have trouble differentiating biased users from regular players, I’ll give you some clues :

  • A single race point of view (almost never arguing about the consequences in other MU’s than the one of their own race)
  • Some sort of focusing perspective on a specific (hated) opposing race
  • Lots of whining (complaints about the other race being too strong, about their own race being too weak, repeated balance request instead of asking of to work upon their own skills).

I just found a recent example of it, which I’d like to share with you :

There, you’ll see we have each and every sign of bias we described :
— Exclusively Protoss point of view
— Focused almost exclusively on Terrans from only the Protoss’ perspective
— Repeated complaints about his own race being weak (=whining)
— Repeated complaints about hated race being strong (= whining)
— Repeated balance requests resulting from above points (=whining)

What’s even more interesting is that this example is so extreme, that not only he considers ALL of the hated race members to be biased, but also progressively takes neutral stances as biased (such as the developers, which aren’t players), as they by definition sometimes differ from his perspective (since it’s not a neutral one). That individual, unaware of his exclusive cognition, is slowly turning towards a paranoïd conclusion, where every single point of view different from his can only be caused by bias (from his own perspective).

You won’t find any of that in Terranic’s threads and contributions. On the contrary, he reported bugs regarding Microbial Shroud in PvZ, proving by that that his view aren’t exclusively from a Terran viewpoint.

If could give you a piece of advice, ErazorZ, it would be not to turn like that individual. Whining won’t make him a better player, nor only considering his own single perspective and seeing conspiracy everywhere a respected community member.

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89

Maybe that is the actuall problem here.

You respecting the opinion of someone clearly being biased. Hence forming your own opinion because he wraps it up in a, ‘moderate and respected’ way.

News flash it doesnt mean he isnt biased.

If youve noticed how much that EMP upgrade ruined protoss lategame, you would understand why i would ‘whine’ about it.

Because the game becomes unplayable from a lategame perspective as protoss.

The very notion you dig through my created threads history, showcase you want to prove a point. Not because you have one. But because you want one.

90

Don’t worry, the whines start since the early game.

Anyway, that’s another complaint about this user’s race being weak, isn’t it ? I’d call that whining, personally. As for digging far away, it’s a copy-paste from the post right above…

I had a point beforehand, since that individual very first line towards me gave me a clue. To give you an idea, the only circumstances where I directly suggest balance tweaks are Community Feeback, where I do make suggestions that often include nerfs for my own race, and tweaks for match-ups where my race isn’t represented. Hence, to be, right away, called biased while striving to also consider protoss and zerg viewpoints strongly hinted me on that individual in fact considering all terrans, and possibly all neutral stances to be flawed.

Anyway, that individual calls himself Erazor Z. He claims Terranic is an extreme case of bias. To prove the contrary, we’d need you to find that on Terranic’s recent contributions :

— Exclusively Terran point of view
— Focused almost exclusively on a single race from a Terran perpective
— Repeated complaints about his own race being weak (=whining)
— Repeated complaints about hated race being strong (= whining)
— Repeated balance requests resulting from above points (=whining)

And to prove us that there isn’t those into ErazorZ’s recent feedback :

— Exclusively Protoss point of view
— Focused almost exclusively on Terrans from only the Protoss’ perspective
— Repeated complaints about his own race being weak (=whining)
— Repeated complaints about hated race being strong (= whining)
— Repeated balance requests resulting from above points (=whining)

Good luck. :wink:

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91

Stating mine dropping is healthy for the game is just not understanding game design as a whole. “i drop 1 mine and i either autowin, or… well… basically nothing because my race is that forgiving”

Second.

Lategame PvT is unplayable in its current state. You are forced to have twice the eco than the T to even compete when maxed out, caused by all the nerfs.

If you make lategame of protoss weaker, what happens? they stop playing lategame its a logical conclussion.

We rarely see templar based openers ever since the EMP buff.

We rarely see collosi openers ever since the collosi nerf.

We do see however an overabudance of mass zealot with charge being spammed basically every PvT. (Wow seriously great gameplay, i can mass 1 unit the entire game and pretend i actually played the game properly) With mass bases behind it to sustain the zealot spam, to simply overrun my opponent with an eco lead.

I stand by every thread ive ever made because i know why i make them. To showcase glaring issues from a protoss point of view.

I am not going to pretend i dont whine.

If scv’s suddenly got 1 starting health, literally all terrans would whine aswell.

What else can i do? File a job at blizzards balance team? LIke seriously. I am a player.

I dont comment on other races matchups because i dont find them interesting. Just like GSL TvT. I cant be bothered to watch that slugfest. Its not fun for me.

This also means that i understand my imput in most cases in terms of TvZ and the other mirror matchups is limited.

But pretending someone is neutral because they do watch that stuff and find mistakes doesnt mean they are instantly ‘the good guys’ like you state they are.

92

Charge got nerfed.
How come people still use it?
I am very confused.
Eragorn charge got nerfed.
But people still use it?
How come? Late game got nerfed. Nobody uses it. Callossus got nerf, nobody uses it.
How come charge got nerfed though but people still use it!?

93

Yes you idiot.

The EMP upgrade increases EMP’s radius. That affects every single Protoss unit, not just Archons, and it affects every single Protoss unit just as much as it affects Archons.

If the upgrade increased the amount of shields EMP removes, that would disproportionately affect Archons because most other units don’t have more than 100 shields, but a radius increase has a consistent effect on everything.

Even tehBatz is not quite as biased as you are, so quit throwing stones in a glass house. The shear amount of projection from you is sickening.

Feedback’s role is more niche than Storm, so of course it will see less use. That is not an argument in favor of your position.

First, Brood War’s balance (unit stats, etc) is very similar to SC2. SC2 was more or less designed by starting with Brood War units in a new engine and tweaking from there until they got to the WOL state; as such, comparisons between Brood War units and stats and SC2 units and stats are usually valid.

Second, Spells in particular were almost universally weakened in SC2 to balance out smart-casting and other changes. Feedback deserved that same treatment just like EMP, Storm, and everything else.

Third, Feedback was eventually nerfed because it was shutting down casters (specifically Vipers) too hard in PvZ. Even though the original Feedback was never balanced for the High Templar; it was not changed until it became a consistent issue, one that couldn’t often be avoided by relying more heavily on Brood Lords or switching comps.

Splitting to a second post so that this post does not become too long.

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94

Yes it was in fact, although as I stated before that was because of the way it affected Protoss’s playstyle more than balance. There is a strong case to be made that Colossus were weakened too much against non-light units, a point where the two of us obviously agree.

Mules have nothing to do with the design choice to make 0/0 Adepts, Oracles, Hellions, and Widow Mines all take an extra hit to kill SCVs; hence they are irrelevant to the list of reasons why 3 of those units (Hellions, Adepts, and Oracles) were nerfed. It’s not my fault you cannot stay on a topic.

Adepts with +1 kill Mules and SCVs at the same rate that they kill other workers. The main point is that SCVs are more durable very early on where Terran’s economy is weaker than the other factions. This isn’t a problem by the time Protoss +1 ground weapons come into play, where Adepts start 2-shotting SCVs like all other workers.

Did I deny that Mules exist? No, I pointed out that the Mule’s existence is irrelevant to the discussion, because it has nothing to do with list of reasons why many harassment units are balanced to require an additional hit to kill SCVs.

How about you stop posting instead? I have never seen you make a single constructive or even rational post. It’s all butthurt whining from you.

95

Well, to answer this seriously:

Protoss still uses Zealots because Zealots are Protoss’s main mineral dump and serve as a decent meat-shield and a source of some additional damage. Charge is still researched because it improves the performance (speed) of Zealots significantly even when the ability itself is on cooldown.

Protoss is less likely to use Colossus now because it is very specialized against light units. There are several compositions employed by Protosss and Zerg that contain few or no light units, and Terran sometimes employs Bio or mech compositions with a reduced number of light units.

96

Not to mention that without this upgrade, slowlots wouldn’t have a shot touching a MMM ball once stim is out. I’m not even sure they could reach kiting hydras without it. :laughing:

Everyone whines from time to time, Erazor. Even Polt do, despite it being extremely rare. So I’m not going to reproach you that.

What I would however, is to claim your whines are absolute truth, and that any other point of view is absolute bias. You could change that easily.

Ask for advice. Refine your skills. Rethink your approach of the match-up in terms of builds and strategies taking in account your own personal style weaknesses. Study in detail the opponents’ strategies and builds timings. Watch progamers deal with the issue. Quantities of things, really. :slightly_smiling_face:

That’s one way to deal with the MU indeed. However, blink openers seems more favored than charge in high level PvT.

I know widow mine harass is frustrating to protoss players, you don’t look at the minimap for 5s, and poof, 12 probes down. Yet, it’s the same frustration than playing against banes or disruptors. Once you’ve learned to split (as a Terran), or to focus the banes with one ling (as a Zerg), both of those become less frustrating.

In my local community we’ve had a M3 protoss who raged for years on widow mines. Well, he gave a replay, and received some map control advice from the observer. And amazingly enough, 2 or 3 weeks later, he privately revealed he felt like he was faring better against mines.

What I would retain from that, is that there are other ways to deal with issues than repeated balance requests. And that is part of why pro players spend less time whining than us commoners. :bulb:

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97

Are you just too dense to see how a unit made up of shields completely evaporates due to being hit multiple times with EMP due to radius being so large?

Feedback doesnt have a role anymore seeing the DPS removal means the spell is literally a waste of energy. considering storm does approx the same DPS in an AoE

Protoss doesnt have the tools to shutdown casters with feedback. Not with 9 range and no dps. Not with 10 range and no dps.

If you want protoss to actually being able to trade they are required to do damage.

Otherwise itll just be confetti guns not trading for there 50/150 cost.

Comparing broodwar to sc2 is literally the most idiotic thing ive seen you try to do.

BW didnt have 200/200 possibility in 1 control group. BW as you mention didnt have smart casting.

BW unit and building placement was made in hexes. They did not clump up.

BW protoss played entirely differently then protoss can do in sc2.

You want sc2 to be broodwar for nostalgia sake. Well guess what i love sc2. And i Hate broodwar.

Saying mules have nothing to do with worker harrass is literally ludecrous. So your stating income doesnt improve with mules? is that your argument? Extremely weak.

Mules go side by side when we talk about harrasment, period.

You dont see adepts after +1 is researched, your entire argument about this is null and void.

Also oracles for instance, dont get that increase in DPS ever. Always required to 3 shot.

The only thing ive seen from you so far are extremely dumb ideas that have nothing to do with sc2 balance.

The one thing i sincerely hope, is that you never start working for blizzard. And if you already do. Then we know the problem now.

98

………Clearly you didn’t read again.

The EMP radius change affects all Protoss units equally. It is not a targeted nerf to Archons like you were claiming.

Feedback is used to disable casters. That has always been its role, killing casters when they have low health and tons of energy is just a bonus.

So let me get this straight: Removing all energy from a caster doesn’t shut down said caster?

Yes, that is why all spells were weakened from their Brood War counterparts. Feedback was the only exception until recently.

That has no effect on Feedback, nor does it have a significant effect on many single target units.

For splash units the effect varies greatly because the same improved path-finding that allows increased clumping also allows units to close the distance to their enemy much faster, which makes units like Siege Tanks and target area spells like Blinding-Cloud/Disruption-Web and Dark-Swarm/Microbial-Shroud less effective.

You seem to hate StarCraft period.

There are plenty of games where you can build up a large death-ball and a-move 95% of the time. Army Men RTS and AOE3 are two such examples. Grey Goo is another one, but the slow movement speed and multiple paths present on most maps throughout that game still often force players to split their army.

StarCraft has a lot more nuance than that, and for most of its history splash damage and spells have punished that kind of behavior.

Once again, you have such bad reading comprehension that I question what grade you are in.

No, the Mule is not at all relevant to the SCV’s health or any harassment units’ damage. SCVs themselves are slowest workers to produce and replace particularly in the early-game where the exact number of hits needed to kill workers matters most. There will also be few Mules if any on the map at that time and plenty of mining lost to building construction. That should all be fairly obvious.

That is a player choice, not a justification to increase the damage of Adepts against SCVs in the early-game where that can be problematic.

If a Protoss player decides to make a few Adepts for harassment at that point they will consistently 2-shot workers. Adepts will also have a much easier time reaching the third or fourth base than the main and natural which are more likely to be walled off.

Yes, because they deal spell damage. Spell damage never benefits from normal weapon upgrades because it ignores armor entirely. This can easily cause a unit’s scaling to grow out of hand.

I personally wouldn’t mind if Oracles received 1 extra damage from weapon upgrades or from a unit-specific upgrade, but if Oracles scaled normally they would get 36-40% more powerful over the course of the game and arguably be overpowered by that point.

You are projecting again. There are not many posters as biased as you on the forums. You who always looks at everything from one extremely narrow viewpoints and lashes out at all others who do not share that view.

Simply accusing others of being biased doesn’t make you neutral, objective, reasonable, or fair in any way.

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99

Can I just say I’m impressed by the constant quality of your posts

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100

Just because it isnt a targetted nerf, doesnt mean archons dont evaporate after the EMP upgrade. When before they where the next best frontline unit protoss had.

Removing all energy from a caster doesnt trade with the caster. it keeps the caster alive to fight another fight.

This is problematic, especially if you consider PvZ, Broodlords will kill any Ht comming forward when facing vipers. even with the range increase it will do nothing except be a constant sink of protoss resources with 0 losses from Z.

Instead of comparing unit designs in the 2 games maybe start looking at what each individual game actually needs. Just saying…

The mule is very relevant.