McCree, Symmetra, and Baptiste need different changes

[Zephrin-11143]

@Yin-1797

@Zephrin-11143

it also doesn’t make sense to have a blanket statement or rule of “damage heroes should have less mobility”. like we going to ignore how much sombra, tracer, df, genji, echo, jr, heck even the snipers widow and hanzo have?

It’s not that their mobility is less, its that it’s more restricted and/or on higher cooldowns than Tanks or related Supports.

it’s still a poor blanket statement. how much or how restricted a hero’s mobility, sustain, range or burst is determined by what their intended gameplay is like.

• like mercy has high mobility because her range for beam is low (15m) so she can actually reasonably go out and heal allies. not to mention she isn’t expected to damage much at all and hence high mobility to let have have escapes.
• tanks like rein, orisa and sigma have low mobility because their shields have high uptime (high sustain)
  • orisa and sigma not having as good barriers or not as good hp because they have range unlike rein
  • dva and winston have more mobility simply because they have less sustain for their lower range so they can be divers.
• tracer, genji, echo have hypermobility because lower hp and shorter effective range than most heroes. they also have burst so that they don’t need to stay long to do their job.
  • flankers like reaper and df get more sustain because either they lack mobility (reaper) and/or because they have higher burst for lower range

etc. just because a hero is in X role doesn’t mean they have to have less or more restrictions on mobility.

@Yin-1797

Compare the amount of air time or distance Winston can get with a 6 second cooldown than with Tracer, or Widowmaker or Genji.

Tracer
tracer with 3 blinks travels 22.5m > winston’s max jump range of 22m. tracer has more flexibility with direction of blinks to unlike winston who’s constrained by lower air control. not to mention flexibility in cd too i.e. winston if wanting to jump say 15m has to use 1 jump either way. tracer just uses 2 blinks and still has 1 remaining for whatever she wants. also on about cd, blanks on charges means that halfway through winston’s jump cd, tracer gets another blink to use letting her travel further. so idk what you’re on about “being more restricted in mobility”.

Widow
She’s a sniper so her mobility is supposed to be lower than heroes that are intended to be mobile. It’d be like me saying “tanks are supposed to have more mobility than supports, just look at dva vs zen or dva vs ana”. like no, they’re heroes that are designed to play entirely different positions, different ranges, entirely different gameplay flow, etc.

also idk why you’re saying to compare air time considering lower control in the air unless you’re playing a flying hero like dva or pharah or echo.

Genji
a lot of mobility passives with like minimal down time on top of dash reset. if his dash cd was low instead of a dash reset passive, he’d be like a squishier df that zips around like tracer does rather than being very methodological around combos like df is.

@Yin-1797

Or how much air time Baptiste gets versus Hanzo or Doomfist with uppercut. Hanzo needs a wall to get vertical coverage and that wall climb has an internal cooldown. Baptiste is less restricted in this case

hanzo is a sniper i.e. has more effective range (much more than bap) rather than being very mobile, plus he even has lunge. df has momentum mechanics for him to get air mobility, but he isn’t about staying in the air all the time anyways, he’s about getting in quick, kil, get out quick.

@Yin-1797

This is a respectable limitation for a mobile option that allows near infinite uses for any member of the team, in addition to allowing Sentries/Turrets and other devices through it.

no it isn’t. it’s simply a harsh limitation for no real reason. no-one, and I mean NO-ONE, needs tp in 1 static spot for long periods of time (let alone infinite). OW simply isn’t static like that, heck objectives move in this game, and we even just recently had another massive patch to shift teams into playing more dynamically rather than statically. the value of “infinitely using tp in 1 spot” simply is really low.

being able to send turrets through obs isn’t a valid justification either given how that could be done before the nerf and it wasn’t being problematic (in an OP way) in the prior state at all.

@Yin-1797

Further, the value argument is irrelevant and a poor one; Tracer can die before she even uses one blink. Genji can die during the usage of Swiftstrike at any point and fail to even damage a target. It is not a valid argument to say that teleporter’s value isn’t there until after the cooldown ticks, just as it’s not a valid argument to say that Torbjorn’s turret is destroyed in mid construction.
…
In the above quote you’re responding to, only Ice Wall’s cooldown ticks away under it’s duration. Blink, Seismic Slam, and Grappling Hook will not start their cooldowns until after the animation completes

you’ve missing my point.

tracer blinks, genji dash, mei wall, junk rat trap, shadow step, etc. they all have their cds tick away WHILE they make use of them.
e.g. reaper shadow steping for a flank. after stepping, he moves to engage (i.e. get value out of his new position step got him in). and DURING his engagement, his shadow step is ticking away. so when he disengages, then wants to for for another flank, he has much less of shadow step’s cd he needs to actually wait for.

similar can be said about the rest of the abilities listed. but for sym tp? sym gets value out of tp, cd isn’t changing until after sym is done with the ability and THEN it starts ticking in which sym has to literally wait out the entire cd in full as she’s got nothing much else but spam inconsistent orbs from afar (her down time) to do.

torb’s turret works the same way, but he doesn’t depend on turret to be able to reasonably contribute since his weapon is pretty decent to function on its own, hence not much of a problem for him. but is still a much less efficient cd mechanic.

like legit draw a timeline:

Most other abilities:

timeline of cd:            |-------------------------------|
timeline of getting value: |+++++++++++| ability down time |

Sym’s tp:

timeline of cd:                        |-------------------------------|
timeline of getting value: |+++++++++++|       ability down time       |

It’s not hard to see how inefficient sym’s tp cd mechanic is (look at that much longer down time) esp when you consider the fact that it’s her tool to actively do anything for her dps job. not to mention technically, sym wouldn’t be getting 100% utilisation of tp during the uptime of tp either (i.e. will experience more down time there e.g. a tp stuck as spawn while a fight is occurring is practically nonexistent to the sym that is trying to fight in the team fight).

@Yin-1797

@Zephrin-11143

he has dash reset on ANY ELIMINATION (note how the game doesn’t distinguish between kills/final blows vs contributing to a kill with some damage here). not to mention having further a reflect and a lot of passive mobility while dash is down for genji to function.

Not any elimination, only those that he participates in. Deflect and passive movement is irrelevant.

“only ones he participates in” is not a high bar to meet is what I said. And deflect as well as literall passive movement are definitely relevant here.

like I’ve said numerous times, tp is sym’s engagement and disengagement tool to contribute as a dps. without it, she simply can’t contribute much esp when compared to other heroes.

if genji messes up dash/is on cd because he + his team failed to get the elim (i.e. no reset), he still has wall climb,double jump, faster base movement + deflect to help him get out. if he used dash already for whatever out of combat mobility or escape, he still has all the other mobility passives + deflect + medium range on shurikens to help him to get closer into shurken effective range for engagements. and again, dash resets on ANY ELIM (not final blows by genji), to make that tool more available.

such crucial availability is lacking on sym due to the cd mechanic from infinite tp.

@Yin-1797

Regardless, the ability to self-destruct Teleporter at any time to force it into cooldown is still possible.

I’m pretty sure I’ve already posted the math to you PROVING OBJECTIVELY why such an argument, i.e. “you can start cd any time you want so the cd mechanic is fine”, is simply wrong. heck even the time lines typed up graphically show that argument’s wrong.

here’s the math again:

@Zephrin-11143

Old 3.0 tp:

• time to next cast = 12s from placement, fixed
• experienced down time = (10s - usage time) + 2s
  • where usage time is in [0s,10s] which represents time spent actually using it and the last 2s is the remaining cd when tp duration is spent.
  • 0 <= experienced down time <= 12s
  • average experienced downtime was about 6s (to fit in 2 engagements in 1 tp, i.e. 2 interacts to go in, 2 interacts to disengage —> 3s used simply in interaction delays, include time actually spent in engagements which aren’t simply going to be nicely 1s long within those interaction delays esp when sym isn’t necessarily always staying strictly 1.5m of tp entrance).

current infinite tp :

• time to next cast = uptime + 10s
• experienced down time = 10s + (uptime - usage time)
  • which is unbounded above
  • 10s <= experienced down time < infinite

@Yin-1797

Regardless, the above argument isn’t relevant. Teleporter’s infinite duration is not equal to any of the above, regardless of its fixed positions, those are still positions which any member of the team can reach

1. being 1.5m away from 1 static spot is REALLY restricting and not negligble at all. it’s not negligible AT ALL. like even brig flail is like 7m and THAT’S MELEE. “still positions any team member can reach” is underselling that constraint MASSIVELY.
2. again, no-one stays near 1.5m of a static spot for long periods of time. OW simply does not have that slow of a pace. I guess you’re right in saying infinite duration is equal to how good availability the other heroes’ core tools are because infinite duration in a static spot is practically worthless.

@Yin-1797

That permanency - excepting of cases of self-destruction or by the enemy team - means that the cooldown can’t be ticking away while it’s active.

its cd CAN’T be ticking away “while active” PERIOD. THAT’S THE PROBLEM.

@Yin-1797

This is factually false. Symmetra’s range is limited to her Sentries which can control spaces she’s not actively in.

we’ve gone through this before: sentries don’t substitute an actual weapon to say sym’s effective range is longer given their

• destructibility (will be quickly gone)
• passiveness i.e. not like you can go “I want to shoot X now who’s over there” because sending out turrets out to do that most likely means they’ll be destroyed not contributing much at all i.e. need for enemies to go to them instead
• cd
• even their detect range is 10m

again, it’s not like junkrat’s effective range is infinite simply because he can put a min or trap on the otherside of the map and trigger them from the other side.

@Yin-1797

You can argue about effectiveness, and certainly, Symmetra is more effective when present with all of her Sentries, but that also means including her Teleporter’s range and the myriad ways she can utilize it combined with her Sentries. Ultimately, this is irrelevant.

ok you, might as well say junkrat’s range is infinite simply due to trap and mine trigger/detonation range is infinite.

@Yin-1797

Understanding that the original design for the Orbs was in threatening spacial trajectory and punishing those who entered it or did not escape it with damage was the point

And it’s a stupid and flawed design because it’s literally relying on enemy incompetence for them to land. we are legit talking about orbs one can guarantee to only take falloff splash damage when even fired from 15m away.

Legit hitscans zone better because hitscan makes you go into cover rather than giving you the option of staying in the open to dodge the slow projectile.

@Yin-1797

If you want more aim-able or more consistent orbs, you gotta be ready to have some sacrifices including smaller or less damaging orbs.

smaller proj size and/or splash size. don’t forget they literally have a sniper-like charge time already which currently has 0 justification for (legit zero, esp when comparing to pharah rockets and junkrat bombs).

@Yin-1797

Or even the possibility of losing the slow entirely from the Sentries.

sure if orbs are really fast.

@Yin-1797

You exchanged that finite duration for substantially more control over it. You want it back, you would have to lose some control over it

I doubt “not having it where you want it to be when you want it to be” or “simply not having it” is what I’d call “having more control” from infinite tp.

@Yin-1797

I’m not even sure Blizzard even wants to do this. Nor would I think that the cooldown limitations would be changed to meet the demand.

and this is how they get angry players.
>implements a completely unnecessary change that brings a lot of blatant detriments
>refused to revert to the objectively better state for some reason that contradicts themselves