Other heroes being able to spam more doesnt change my point, and both are also getting nerfed. Also throwing soldier in there has nothing to do with spam dmg.
Is there even a projectile with a bigger hitbox than sym orbs? Maybe firestrike, im not sure, but thats about it I can think of. Hitbox is not pretty small at all.
I mean that’s where you have to take what they say with a grain of salt 
Widowmaker has been an issue in Diamond Upwards for 2-3 years, literally bending the meta in ways to counter her (Goats, Double Barrier) or to work with her (Double Sniper, whatever you want to call the current one)
Symmetra was meta for 9 days, and one of the most niche heroes in the game since day 1
Kind of a big difference 
exactly. a dps hero that’s squishy and shorter ranged needs to be more compensated by mobility and burst to make sense. look at tracer, genji, echo, somewhat df, and reaper (df and reaper having more sustain to make up for not being as mobile nor having as much range as the former ones).
they all make sense in design and can function reasonably independently (i.e. able to independently go grab opportunities to contribute) because they have mobility and the burst they have despite being shorter ranged and being more squishy.
yes they’re all flankers, and yes sym is a flanker too (how can she claim territory effectively, esp on attack, if she doesn’t flank?).
hence why I’ve been saying all this time that tp needs to go back to being as frequent as old 3.0 finite tp (her engage and disengage tool; we legit have objective data for >1yr showing that old frequency being fine) and to make her orbs actually mid ranged (because tp never has, never will, nor ever should be as frequent/mobile as say tracer, hence compensate with more range on orb).
How often does this happen? 100% of the time, or less than 15% of the time?
Which I just said.
Doesn’t even come close to 300 damage per second.
Also doesn’t even come close to 300 damage per second.
Maximum damage out of this isn’t 300 damage nor is it even close to 300 damage per second.
How often does this happen?
How often does this happen. Is it even feasible given the spread on D.va mech?
It’s 175 damage per shot, or 350 on a headshot. Extremely unlikely without hook.
140 x 2 is 280. How feasible is it for Reaper to be that close to launch that much damage into Tracer’s head? 100% of the time?
How often does this happen?
This isn’t 300 damage in one shot, nor is it even 300 damage per second.
What’s the average critical hit rate on Echo and the average hit rate of all six bombs?
Not 300 damage, or 300 damage per second. But it may be possible to get that 300 damage per second number if 4 Storm Arrows released immediately after each other all managed to hit the target’s head. How often does that happen?
So what’s those average critical hit rates? If I fire off 100 shots as McCree what are the chances I hit two shots in the head? Let alone one shot in the head?
I meant in total, sorry I wasn’t clear.
TTK is much higher than that actually.
Ideally, Soldier would be able to kill a 200 health target in a half second, but that doesn’t happen.
It is not possible for Winston to kill a full health, 200 HP target in less than 3 seconds.
For heroes like Mei, it’s also not possible for them to kill in less than 1.5 seconds.
And when you start factoring in average accuracy, the TTK climbs up. Especially when you add barriers, healing, mitigation and more.
Huh?
That’s strange…
I’m almost positive that Winston’s beam is the only one with a cleaving effect.
I’m almost positive that Moira’s beam is the only one with a health drain effect (fixed health drain, but still there).
I’m almost positive that Mei’s beam is the only that freezes targets.
I’m almost positive than Zarya’s beam gains charge based on damage absorbed through barriers.
I’m almost positive that Echo’s beam increases in damage output when targets are at half health or less, and by a four-fold increase.
But hey, maybe I’m wrong. They may not sound like gimmicks to you, and every beam is exactly alike.
So at level 1 beam, place Sentry, I lose beam level 1 and go to level 0 beam. Makes sense.
Hence why I said “if”
Okay, you go melee than Sentry 8 meters from you while Symmetra and the other Sentries are burning your behind. By the time you get done with that at 40% movement, you’ll be dead if you weren’t a tank.
Ideally, good Symmetra players will make sure to put those Sentries in hard to reach places.
Secondly, Symmetra may have a large hit box, but that’s also why she has shield health, you’ll die before you can kill her, and she’ll recover up to 100 health in the downtime.
The longer you sit at the choke is a victory for me as a defender.
Probably, but at least my Sentries will do some damage while I’m re-spawning. You know, just like Torbjorn’s 16 damage a shot turret.
I dunno. Facing Mei and Pharah as Junkrat is pretty hard.
Or hey, Widowmaker against Winston and Tracer.
Or Hanzo against Doomfist and McCree
Or Doomfist against Sombra and Roadhog
Or Wrecking Ball against Sombra and Mei
Or Reinhardt against McCree and Mei or Tracer and Ashe
If Symmetra was that crippled in 1v1 scenario, she would not be chosen in OWL. And Blizzard would not have curbed her power after the beam bug fixes.
Symmetra is a builder. She’s not Tracer, or Genji, and she’s not Reaper or Sombra.
You need stop comparing Symmetra to them, because she is not them. You need compare Symmetra to Torbjorn, because, like Torbjorn, Symmetra is a builder.
She is not a flanker. She is a builder. Why this hard to understand?
Teleporter is not a engaging or disengaging tool. It never was, never designed to be and never intended to be. It’s far too slow for that.
Get it into your skulls, Symmetra is a builder. She is not a flanker. She is not supposed to be ramming into enemy targets with her beams. If you’re doing this and complaining that you’re dying because you can’t kill things, that’s your fault for thinking in stupid ways and not understanding how Symmetra is supposed to be played.
builder is legit an arbitrary label to a hero that simply uses structures. just like summoner is simply a label for a character that conjures animal-like companions to help them. not a categorisation that confines the character to a certain playstyle or positioning.
when you have a hero constrained to have low sustain AND low effective range, they WILL need mobility and burst to make up for that so they can actually contribute esp in a ladder setting where about everyone solo queue and everyone is rewarded individually.
unlike sym, torb doesn’t have a charge up via damage weapon fire which lets him have able to be given more sustain and range. that’s not the case for sym and thus her only reasonably avenues to make up for such constraints are mobility and burst.
I’m not saying sym has to be 100% mobile flanker like tracer and genji. sym definitely has enough room to have slight improvements to primary to make it more justifiable to use in duels in its range, but the bulk of what she needs will be making tp more available for engagements + disengagements, and balancing orbs to be actually midranged so that her contributions when tp is down is less trash.
right. instead she should dynamically, strategically and creatively zone and get picks like the following:
Lol you’re talking about likelihood in terms of potential
This convo is pointless
sigma is fine for the most part orisa is the one that will need some help reverting the armor nerf is what she needs imo that plus the slight buffs to halt will help make her viable without over buffing her and if she needs something more they can tweak her more like one more damage per bullet or something of that nature since buffing her shield / halt is clearly off the table
i think the ashe nerf is ok though i would prefer a dynamite nerf i also know that in their head she has a strong dynamite and its her primary fire thats weaker so i dont expect them to ever nerf dynamite
i wouldnt call mccree weak before the ashe buffs he was considered the best hitscan at the time slowing his fire rate down will def hurt him and might make him bad but i think its more likely he’ll be mid tier which in the grand scheme of things is the same.
idk why the are straight nerfing bap in the current meta he isnt even good most people would say the best way to play bap is to press h in spawn. if they want to shift his power away from aoe heal buff something else in his kit its pretty clear that whenever his aoe heals arent meta he is one of the weaker healers. so if they dont want him to be always bad then they gotta buff a none aoe healing aspect in his kit and example could be when he hits a direct with his heals they heal 75 hp instead but the aoe only heals 25 but his heal bullets move faster or something in this nature that pulls his power away from aoe but without nerfing him outright.
sym is a meme its clear is a weaker dps. i agree with nerfing the spam in her kit cause spam sucks but i cant for the life of me see why they wouldnt also bufff something like her primary like make the base damage higher or even just give her the duration buff they teased with experimental.
in short blizz doesnt know how to balance their game and they have no clear goal with what they want from the game.
More like ‘‘I think turrets are OP because I died to Sym once and scapegoating my player mistakes on her is easy because I can claim she requires no skill’’.
Legit sentries are only an issue when construct TP breaks them. Remove Construct TP before even attempting to remove sentries.
I see nothing wrong with any of the videos you posted. This is good Symmetra play, and the only thing I can see that could be improved here would be quality of life elements.
And by quality of life, it’s mostly related to UI and visual improvements (indicators of where Sentries will land, Sentry health, visual effects indicating slows and being able to see enemy health bars behind the walls that Sentries are attacking from.
Of course these are all duels, and the style of play here is going to be fundamentally different in team play.
the thing is in “team play” scenarios, things like “get X to high ground”, “skip choke”, “get X back from spawn quicker” etc. are all very situational (i.e. infrequent) use cases that shouldn’t take much tp uptime. and what sym should be doing in the majority of the match time where such situational team uses aren’t very valuable/applicable, the things done in those clips are a lot of what sym should be doing. the issue is sym isn’t being balanced that way, esp tp which the cd mechanic on it basically doesn’t let you switch between “team use” vs “own use” (fast enough).
Too many similar mobility options present themselves with similar cooldowns (Shadowstep being one of them). The fact is that reducing the cooldown for teleporter even further, complete with it’s permanency, regenerative health and more risks putting it as a superior mobility option when it’s flexible enough to get certain tanks in positions that they wouldn’t normally be able to get to (not to mention a variety of other heroes).
The other issues, which niche strategies or attempts are just qualifying enough to keep the cooldown exactly where it is. Teleporter being more valuable than Steel Trap or Shadowstep or Icewall and sharing the two former’s cooldown (along with the cast time) keep it from reaching critical abuse.
Additionally several other mobility options are faster and don’t cover much ground as Teleporter, (though some may do damage), and share relatively similar cooldowns. Swiftstrike covers 15 meters, delivers 50 damage, and is on a 9 second cooldown and refreshes upon elimination. Blink has three charges at 8 meter distance per charge (so 18 meters), with 9 second cooldown combined for all three charges.
Then there’s abilities like Widowmaker’s Grappling Hook (12 seconds), Seismic Slam, or Icewall with substantial vertical climb at various cooldowns that also double as vital escape, defense or damaging options. These have lower or higher cooldowns than teleporter and only Icewall can be utilized by the team to get vertical mobility. It’s pretty clear that for the Damage-role, mobility have to be limited to a certain degree.
It’s true that Tanks and Supports have superior mobility options all on vastly lower cooldowns with some in each role being outright faster than anyone the damage role. And you can argue that Symmetra used to be in this position and so Teleporter should have a lower cooldown, but that doesn’t work. Symmetra is now in the Damage-role, and as long as she’s in the Damage-role, her mobility is going to be limited, especially since it provides utility to not only herself but to the team. You can argue about the niche elements of strategy being utilized behind it, but that’s also a arguable point. We can’t have Teleporter having a more competitive cooldown if it’s going to enable those kinds of strategies which may or may not break the game. As unconvential as some of those strategies may be, they are allowed in the game, and short of abusing them, attention must be made to keep Teleporter from being too enabling.
This isn’t to say that Teleporter can’t be changed to be more accommodating. We can lower the health, restrict or limit access to it, or even change the duration for a loss of self-destruction. But in it’s current form, and with the control that Symmetra has over it and the utility it provides, you can’t have it. And you need to accept that.
Ditching Teleporter for something else completely, that fits into Symmetra’s builder nature is also an option, as is changing Symmetra’s ultimate.
Asking more damage, more resilient Sentries, or faster teleporter without understanding that you would need to change additional elements to get those features isn’t going to happen. At best, you might be able to squeeze a slight cooldown reduction on Sentries, but you’d pushing past Torbjorn’s turret cooldown at that point. Being able to constantly reinforce for the loss of a persistent slow and damage with little penalty can be game breaking.
tp, assuming we’re not being ludicrous, will never be a better individual mobility option than say tracer blinks orr genji’s mobility or mercy’s ga or even lucio’s speed+wallrides simply because it’s more static in nature. all the other heroes’ mobility can be used wherever they are and whenever they want (when available which is more frequent than tp) which is something very important in how fast ow’s pace is.
tp will be more static in being stuck in 2 static points with a very limited 1.5m interaction radius i.e. sym needs to pretty much anchor herself to the entrances to use tp. that makes her mobility really predictable and campable. this isn’t even including the destructibility and the windup too giving it much more counterplay. and it’s this counterability are what makes it a worse individual mobility even if it gets more frequent like old finite 3.0 tp.
at a design level, it’s also such drawbacks that justify why they allow teammates through. because if they don’t, tp as an individual mobility tool will simply be very bad and counterable.
it also doesn’t make sense to have a blanket statement or rule of “damage heroes should have less mobility”. like we going to ignore how much sombra, tracer, df, genji, echo, jr, heck even the snipers widow and hanzo have?
he has dash reset on ANY ELIMINATION (note how the game doesn’t distinguish between kills/final blows vs contributing to a kill with some damage here). not to mention having further a reflect and a lot of passive mobility while dash is down for genji to function.
again the difference between serial cd vs parallelised cd is HUGE. former makes you literally and actually wait out the cd entirely. the latter not so much because you’re still using it or capitalising on it as its cd ticks away --> less time waiting for when you want/need to use it again --> more efficient.
sym is a hero constrained by primary into having lower sustain and lower range as a dops. if you’re keeping that primary and trying to replace her mobility tool, your only option is to rework her into a tank that somehow doesn’t look like a zarya clone in terms of kit.
It’s not that their mobility is less, its that it’s more restricted and/or on higher cooldowns than Tanks or related Supports.
Compare the amount of air time or distance Winston can get with a 6 second cooldown than with Tracer, or Widowmaker or Genji. Or how much air time Baptiste gets versus Hanzo or Doomfist with uppercut. Hanzo needs a wall to get vertical coverage and that wall climb has an internal cooldown. Baptiste is less restricted in this case. There are many provable examples. Lucio and Wrecking Ball are the most mobile and fastest characters in the game and aren’t restricted as much as Sombra or Soldier would be within certain respects.
This is a respectable limitation for a mobile option that allows near infinite uses for any member of the team, in addition to allowing Sentries/Turrets and other devices through it.
Further, the value argument is irrelevant and a poor one; Tracer can die before she even uses one blink. Genji can die during the usage of Swiftstrike at any point and fail to even damage a target. It is not a valid argument to say that teleporter’s value isn’t there until after the cooldown ticks, just as it’s not a valid argument to say that Torbjorn’s turret is destroyed in mid construction.
No one said it was, nor argued it as such.
Not any elimination, only those that he participates in. Deflect and passive movement is irrelevant.
In the above quote you’re responding to, only Ice Wall’s cooldown ticks away under it’s duration. Blink, Seismic Slam, and Grappling Hook will not start their cooldowns until after the animation completes. Regardless, the ability to self-destruct Teleporter at any time to force it into cooldown is still possible.
If you wanted to argue about Ice Wall’s duration and cooldown and compare that to Teleporter, that would be a hard argument against it. The only argument I can see with why it’s done this way with Mei, is to avoid accidental blockings and griefing. Which can be a fair argument for Teleporter as well, probably. Would have to really think about this one.
Regardless, the above argument isn’t relevant. Teleporter’s infinite duration is not equal to any of the above, regardless of its fixed positions, those are still positions which any member of the team can reach. That permanency - excepting of cases of self-destruction or by the enemy team - means that the cooldown can’t be ticking away while it’s active.
This is factually false. Symmetra’s range is limited to her Sentries which can control spaces she’s not actively in. The argument doesn’t work, especially when compared to Torbjorn’s similarly constructed range or spacial control.
You can argue about effectiveness, and certainly, Symmetra is more effective when present with all of her Sentries, but that also means including her Teleporter’s range and the myriad ways she can utilize it combined with her Sentries. Ultimately, this is irrelevant.
If you want to limit your thinking by that much, you’re free to do so. I’m not so constrained, however.
Understanding that the original design for the Orbs was in threatening spacial trajectory and punishing those who entered it or did not escape it with damage was the point. That hasn’t changed. If you want more aim-able or more consistent orbs, you gotta be ready to have some sacrifices including smaller or less damaging orbs. Or even the possibility of losing the slow entirely from the Sentries.
It’s not specifically drawn to you.
You exchanged that finite duration for substantially more control over it. You want it back, you would have to lose some control over it. I’m not even sure Blizzard even wants to do this. Nor would I think that the cooldown limitations would be changed to meet the demand.
I like how the tacitly made bap’s ult, already one of the worst in the game, even worse.
it’s still a poor blanket statement. how much or how restricted a hero’s mobility, sustain, range or burst is determined by what their intended gameplay is like.
etc. just because a hero is in X role doesn’t mean they have to have less or more restrictions on mobility.
Tracer
tracer with 3 blinks travels 22.5m > winston’s max jump range of 22m. tracer has more flexibility with direction of blinks to unlike winston who’s constrained by lower air control. not to mention flexibility in cd too i.e. winston if wanting to jump say 15m has to use 1 jump either way. tracer just uses 2 blinks and still has 1 remaining for whatever she wants. also on about cd, blanks on charges means that halfway through winston’s jump cd, tracer gets another blink to use letting her travel further. so idk what you’re on about “being more restricted in mobility”.
Widow
She’s a sniper so her mobility is supposed to be lower than heroes that are intended to be mobile. It’d be like me saying “tanks are supposed to have more mobility than supports, just look at dva vs zen or dva vs ana”. like no, they’re heroes that are designed to play entirely different positions, different ranges, entirely different gameplay flow, etc.
also idk why you’re saying to compare air time considering lower control in the air unless you’re playing a flying hero like dva or pharah or echo.
Genji
a lot of mobility passives with like minimal down time on top of dash reset. if his dash cd was low instead of a dash reset passive, he’d be like a squishier df that zips around like tracer does rather than being very methodological around combos like df is.
hanzo is a sniper i.e. has more effective range (much more than bap) rather than being very mobile, plus he even has lunge. df has momentum mechanics for him to get air mobility, but he isn’t about staying in the air all the time anyways, he’s about getting in quick, kil, get out quick.
no it isn’t. it’s simply a harsh limitation for no real reason. no-one, and I mean NO-ONE, needs tp in 1 static spot for long periods of time (let alone infinite). OW simply isn’t static like that, heck objectives move in this game, and we even just recently had another massive patch to shift teams into playing more dynamically rather than statically. the value of “infinitely using tp in 1 spot” simply is really low.
being able to send turrets through obs isn’t a valid justification either given how that could be done before the nerf and it wasn’t being problematic (in an OP way) in the prior state at all.
you’ve missing my point.
tracer blinks, genji dash, mei wall, junk rat trap, shadow step, etc. they all have their cds tick away WHILE they make use of them.
e.g. reaper shadow steping for a flank. after stepping, he moves to engage (i.e. get value out of his new position step got him in). and DURING his engagement, his shadow step is ticking away. so when he disengages, then wants to for for another flank, he has much less of shadow step’s cd he needs to actually wait for.
similar can be said about the rest of the abilities listed. but for sym tp? sym gets value out of tp, cd isn’t changing until after sym is done with the ability and THEN it starts ticking in which sym has to literally wait out the entire cd in full as she’s got nothing much else but spam inconsistent orbs from afar (her down time) to do.
torb’s turret works the same way, but he doesn’t depend on turret to be able to reasonably contribute since his weapon is pretty decent to function on its own, hence not much of a problem for him. but is still a much less efficient cd mechanic.
like legit draw a timeline:
Most other abilities:
timeline of cd: |-------------------------------|
timeline of getting value: |+++++++++++| ability down time |
Sym’s tp:
timeline of cd: |-------------------------------|
timeline of getting value: |+++++++++++| ability down time |
It’s not hard to see how inefficient sym’s tp cd mechanic is (look at that much longer down time) esp when you consider the fact that it’s her tool to actively do anything for her dps job. not to mention technically, sym wouldn’t be getting 100% utilisation of tp during the uptime of tp either (i.e. will experience more down time there e.g. a tp stuck as spawn while a fight is occurring is practically nonexistent to the sym that is trying to fight in the team fight).
“only ones he participates in” is not a high bar to meet is what I said. And deflect as well as literall passive movement are definitely relevant here.
like I’ve said numerous times, tp is sym’s engagement and disengagement tool to contribute as a dps. without it, she simply can’t contribute much esp when compared to other heroes.
if genji messes up dash/is on cd because he + his team failed to get the elim (i.e. no reset), he still has wall climb,double jump, faster base movement + deflect to help him get out. if he used dash already for whatever out of combat mobility or escape, he still has all the other mobility passives + deflect + medium range on shurikens to help him to get closer into shurken effective range for engagements. and again, dash resets on ANY ELIM (not final blows by genji), to make that tool more available.
such crucial availability is lacking on sym due to the cd mechanic from infinite tp.
I’m pretty sure I’ve already posted the math to you PROVING OBJECTIVELY why such an argument, i.e. “you can start cd any time you want so the cd mechanic is fine”, is simply wrong. heck even the time lines typed up graphically show that argument’s wrong.
here’s the math again:
its cd CAN’T be ticking away “while active” PERIOD. THAT’S THE PROBLEM.
we’ve gone through this before: sentries don’t substitute an actual weapon to say sym’s effective range is longer given their
again, it’s not like junkrat’s effective range is infinite simply because he can put a min or trap on the otherside of the map and trigger them from the other side.
ok you, might as well say junkrat’s range is infinite simply due to trap and mine trigger/detonation range is infinite. 
And it’s a stupid and flawed design because it’s literally relying on enemy incompetence for them to land. we are legit talking about orbs one can guarantee to only take falloff splash damage when even fired from 15m away.
Legit hitscans zone better because hitscan makes you go into cover rather than giving you the option of staying in the open to dodge the slow projectile.
smaller proj size and/or splash size. don’t forget they literally have a sniper-like charge time already which currently has 0 justification for (legit zero, esp when comparing to pharah rockets and junkrat bombs).
sure if orbs are really fast.
I doubt “not having it where you want it to be when you want it to be” or “simply not having it” is what I’d call “having more control” from infinite tp.
and this is how they get angry players.
>implements a completely unnecessary change that brings a lot of blatant detriments
>refused to revert to the objectively better state for some reason that contradicts themselves
since when does “builder” have a specific playstyle lmao
all it means is that they build things??
Correct.
Not quite, but this something that we don’t have to get into right now.
Not exactly. They’re supposed to rotate between barriers and other mitigation tools which they have. Their barriers are also more disruptive to spacial control than others.
Not quite true, either.
Tracer isn’t burst-oriented. Though she can play in this way.
Uh, no this is wrong.
Reaper is oriented towards sustain and has plenty of mobility options. Doomfist is not sustain, but burst-oriented.
The reason why they have higher health is because of the nature of their engagement and approach requires it. They need to be in extremely close range to connect their shots successfully and to survive. That’s also why Reaper has his passive lifesteal (previously soul orbs), and Doomfist generates shields. They’re also substantially larger targets for their role-class.
Mei is in a similar position as the above, though she can play distance as well.
Winston can travel more than this.
Tracer has horizontal mobility in any direction she wants to go. Winston is not constrained by horizontal directions, but must take a parabolic arc in order to reach specific directions, or he can go straight up. You can also say that Tracer’s movement is limited to 2D planes and Winston’s mobility is 3D.
It’s also important to note that Winston delivers damage of up to 50 damage every time he lands with Jump Pack and Tracer does not (though I guess the argument can be made with regards to damage output in other ways, but that would be a tricky one).
Tracer cannot reach the high ground through the same methods as Winston can. This is kind of an important distinction since the routes it would take Tracer to approach would be differen than Winston’s routes, and most maps would tend to favor the Tanks. Tracer can more stealthly approach from non-specific routes to reach high ground that Winston or D.va can also use, or take more direct routes with high risk.
There’s no real good argument anymore against Widow’s positioning in mobility situations (or perches) anymore. So I’m going to skip arguing about this one. The real problem with Widow’s perches were largely inaccessible by the majority of the Damage-role until the introduction of certain heroes and changes to others. Short of that, the other issue lies in map construction and the vulnerability present to the damage role that attempt to shut down Widow, but could not reach her for reasons.
That’s no longer an issue, but still somewhat specific.
In terms of speed, he’s the fourth fastest hero, Soldier, Tracer and Sombra are all faster in his own role. In overall, he’s beaten out by Lucio, Valkyrie Mercy and Wrecking Ball. If you want to get very specific, Mercy’s Guardian Angel will outpace him at any given time, too. Regardless, Genji’s mobility was never really a problematic one; unless you wanna count on bugs.
It’s true that if Genji’s Swiftstrike didn’t reset on elimination that he participated in, it’d probably be on a lower cooldown. Also, it’s kinda of important to note that Genji’s mobility can go in any direction and is largely unrestricted even from the air.
But Swiftstrike is supposed to be used as an attacking tool or finisher and using it as an escape means putting it on a cooldown that he cannot utilize for several seconds; and Deflect is supposed to cover for that, or within the downtime of searching for a health pack before returning to the fight.
Regardless, maximizing damage and getting quick kills is difficult for Genji to the point where he’s arguably picked specifically for team ults, or for scrub-killing. Soldier is often used as a replacement for Genji, in part because of Soldier’s burst is more reliable than Genji’s own. This is a conundrum that Blizzard needs to figure out how to correctly balance with time. Boosting Genji’s shuriken damage wasn’t the smartest idea, but one worth trying to keep Genji from being outshoned by Echo or Doomfist in terms of mobility (of which he struggles to meet) and Soldier in terms of reliability (of which is also struggles with). Narrowing RMB seemed to be a step in the right direction; but it may take some time to see how this turns out.
Prior to the addition of Lunge and even now, Hanzo still cannot reach the same perches Widowmaker can, and as long as Blizzard was willing to call Hanzo a sniper, his mobility when compared to others in his role wasn’t enough to keep him going or competing with Widowmaker. This is still true.
It seems that Blizzard is willing to move Hanzo away from that sniper-role and more into a mid-range marksmen in similar vein to Ashe, but Ashe is currently doing a better job than Hanzo, or so it seems.
That said, in order Hanzo to gain the sort of verticality that Baptiste gets, Hanzo requires a wall that doesn’t have a platform above it. Or to be able to leap from a higher position and lunge over to a ledge or platform to gain height or maintain height. Baptiste isn’t limited on cooldowns in the same way that Hanzo is, and it takes less time for Baptiste to gain veriticality to do his job than it takes for Hanzo to do his. And ultimately that’s what this discussion is about. The mobility options provided to Damage are more restricting because it enables them to perform their jobs (eliminating targets) that the mobility options provided to Supports or Tanks to do theirs.
Baptiste’s healing grenades are splash. Unlike damage, they always heal for the full amount as long as you’re within the range of the splash. Baptiste’s splash is 3 meters - large than Pharah’s, Junkrat’s, Symmetra’s splash damage range and equal to Soldier’s, and exceeded by Ashe and Tracer. Baptiste’s arc on his healing grenades is slight and can travel enormous distances at relatively fast speeds, so having the high ground is useful for Baptiste.
Why then is his mobility option for vertical climbs both higher and less restrictive than say Doomfist’s Uppercut? Doomfist gets damage out Uppercut, but only at melee range and only 50 damage, but Doomfist needs verticality in order to maximize the damage for Seismic Slam (which will never hit maximum damage from the air, either way).
Or take Hanzo’s Wall Climb for example. Wall climb has an internal cooldown, and doesn’t climb as high than Baptiste’s EXO Boots. Wall Climb also requires a wall and EXO-Boots does not need it. So why then, when both benefit from higher ground does Baptiste have a less restrictive form of vertical climb over Hanzo? I’m sure you can come up with a possible explanation, but I don’t think it’ll be the correct assumption, but I’m willing to be surprised.
Really? You don’t think using it to reduce spawn time run backs isn’t worth keeping Teleporter running? And if at any time you need to use it again, you have full control to destroy whenever you want. That comes with it’s own balancing issues.
Not quite correct. Genji’s dash doesn’t tick away until animation completes. nor does Shadowstep. Tracer and Junkrat has charges, but Junkrat is also limited to one concussion mine on the field at one time. Other abilities similarly, don’t tick away until after the animation completes. Winston’s Jump Pack, for example, won’t start ticking until after he lands.
No it doesn’t. Torbjorn’s Turret does not tick away until after it’s destroyed. If it’s destroyed by him, it’ll refresh in 5 seconds. If the turret is being attacked, he cannot self-destruct it, and will have to wait until it’s destroy and it’s cooldown is complete (10 seconds) before he can place it again.
If you’re talking about repositioning the turret, then yes, he can do this while another turret is still up and not in combat. Symmetra can do this too with her Sentries; regardless of whether they’re in combat or not.
Again, the control and permanency of the Teleporter requires some drawbacks to the cooldown. You’re not making this for yourself, but your entire team can utilize it. Whether they want to or not, whether they do or not, whether you decide to use it or it is destroyed in the process does not change that fact.
Irrelevant.
You keep thinking that Teleporter is an engagement tool instead thinking of it as more of utility for the team. This is the problem; you don’t think that sentries, orbs, or her primary act as engagement tools. You don’t think of it as a flexible device and think of it as only a tool to support Symmetra and Symmetra alone.
Here’s a problem.
This is conditional; is there a wall nearby that Genji can turn and face to climb away from harm?
Evasive, sure.
Half a meter faster and that’s barely much of anything in a game full of ranged attackers.
Conditional. Covers only the front, and won’t cover against beams.
And… this is babbling… and difficult to parse. Suffice to say, if Genji is unable to kill with Swiftstrike and is still in combat, he has some recourse with Deflect to fight it out and survive. Double jump can aid in this.
Usually, however, Deflect is used to approach, and Swiftstrike is to kill. If Swiftstrike is used and it didn’t kill that target is usually low enough for Genji to finish off. If not, and there’s a situation where the target is being healed or being reinforced, there is little re-course for Genji. Likely, he’s already used Deflect to approach his target and attempted Swiftstrike to kill him off. While Deflect is on a lower cooldown and Double-Jump can be evasive enough to survive (to a certain degree), odds are not good for Genji here.
Irrelevant. Different character, different strategies, different approaches and different mindsets. Once again, Symmetra is a builder designed for spacial and defensive control of space. If she cannot control that space, she dies. Teleporter is not a crutch to justify any argument that that goes against what Symmetra should be doing in controlling space.
Same argument, different words. It’s irrelevant.
Why would you stay within one point of the teleporter’s range when you can utilize the entire space that teleporter covers and build up a defense there and travel between the two.
You don’t have to do this. You can easily destroy the teleporter any time you want.
Yes, I know. Do you understand why?
That’s why you get three of them, totalling 90 health.
Or you can bait them to get them to come to you. Or use can charge up an orb, or fire a bunch.
Or you can use a teleporter to get to higher ground near them and zap them from above.
Or - since you get multiple charges - you can teleporter to the high ground, deploy one to supplement your damage.
Or you can charge up and orb, and then immediately deploy a sentry behind to cover its destination and hide from view as well as threaten the space that the target is occupying and force him to move.
Or you can use Photon Barrier to block projectile damage and deploy sentries safely.
Or you can use Photon Barrier, deploy a Teleporter on the other side of that wall (thus covered by the photon barrier) and Sentry bomb the target that way.
Many ideas, many uses, many might not work, but that’s not a weakness.
You’re complaining about the cooldown and limited range even though you have multiple charges that count down after one is deployed.
Again, I’m not against the idea of slight cooldown reduction, but 10 meters in multiple angles in addition to Symmetra’s own primary and secondary range is pretty strong front and lot of coverage.
Irrelevant. Symmetra’s sentry coverage is 30 meters compared to Junkrat’s trap. And neither is going to guarantee a kill on every target.
Well that Orb coming at me at this narrow choke, better take cover… waiting… waiting… waiting… oh here comes the Orb now. Better hope that Orb didn’t just buy time.
Other methods include suppressive fire.
What the zero-charge orbs? You can fire 9 of them in a single second, they’re still larger than Junkrat’s frag grenades and still larger than Lucio’s 4-round burst.
If you mean fully-charged orb. Yes, at 120 damage, at sniper charge rate, it is exactly the same amount of damage as one of Widowmaker’s charged sniper shots. It just can’t headshot crit, but it does have splash damage. It’s also substantially larger than other projectile in the game.
How fast do you want them?
If you casted it, you put it where you wanted it to be by intention. If it’s not available to, because you forgot to destroy it ahead of time, that’s still on you. That’s what control is all about.
In your view. This is not an objective assessment, nor is it contradictory.
Like Torbjorn or the Engineer from Team Fortress 2. They’re defensive in nature, preferring to use static defenses to defend or control space, or capture points. They tend to have limited offensive abilities. Torbjorn is more sustaining, Symmetra is built to more damaging and utilitarian in exchange for sustainment.
His numbers are already going down just one day in.
but without needing to dive into rabbit holes, you see the point I’m making no? heroes don’t simply have more/less of mobility/sustain/burst/range simply because they have a damage role (or whatever role) label slapped onto them. they have a certain distribution based on what their gameplay is.
sym isn’t meant to sit back all day far from the enemy being some sort of structure dispenser all day because
by having primary the way it is, she can’t have too much range on everything else (needs a range where she’s weak at; i.e. limits her range) and she can’t have too much sustain otherwise she’d be oppressive with primary → her effective range is lower.
With shorter effective ranged heroes, either they get sustain or mobility to compensate. sustain is already ruled out hence that leaves the mobility flanker-like route. she doesn’t have to be as mobile as tracer or genji in trading some of it by having a staple midanged orb option. her current tp mobility is legit pitiful tho.
if you’re leaving up a spawn tp up while no-one’s close to respawning, you are factually wasting tp that way because it is legit contirbuting nothing while you as sym continously pay upfront with a lack of engagement AND disengagement tool to contribute to the fight, as well as lack of an active utility tool for the team as tp is stuck as spawn for literally no-one.
if your team is respawning so often that you can permanently leave tp at spawn outside of over time, it’s still likely wasting it anyways because you probably should be using tp in the fight to actually win it because quite evidently your team are struggling to do so.
the drawbacks are kit killingly detrimental vs the minuscule value permanency and “control” brings. again, we had 2 big patches making teams move around much more than OW’s original fast pace. no-one, stays in melee range of 1 static spot for a long time.
no I’m not summarising it, because it legit is filled with that much justification as to why tp IS sym’s engagement AND disengagement tool.
sym isn’t like ana, mccree, soldier, hanzo, mei, etc. who can just wasd into effective range of their longer ranged staple weapon fire.
I do think it can be a utility tool, but ALL of her utility uses are SITUATIONAL i.e. don’t make up most of the match time compared to individual use.
heck one of the BIG arguments I’ve made in regards to old finite 3.0 tp being better is that you have it more often to repupose and/or reposition tp i.e. can switch between team utility and individual use or 1 team utility use case with another team utility use case in much less time and more frequently —> get more value and more hero uptime.
waiting 10s MINIMUM before you can adapt is INSANELY WORSE than waiting 2s minimum. what you say below further supports my point:
notice how often you specified putting down/casting a tp? THAT’S WHY, HAVING A DRASTIC INCREASE IN MINIMUM EXPERIENCED DOWN TIME KILLS TP. A LOT OF STRATS FOR SYM TO ACTIVELY DO ANYTHING ARE VERY DEPENDENT ON HAVING A CAST AVAILABLE.
if it’s irrelevant then so is your claim that sentries make sym’s effective range long. because they use they rely on the same logic.
0.25s recovery means 4 no charge orbs per second so that’s false (legit worse than mercy pistol fire rate). soldier shoots 1 bullet per second. sym does not shoot as frequently as soldier.
re projectile size vs junkrat bombs and lucio shots: doubt.
it’s one of the slowest projectiles in the game ----> low effective range, high inconsistency. no the aoe splash doesn’t compensate for BOTH of those drawbacks. pharah + junkrat have about double the fire rate, same if not faster projectiles (more consistency and same/longer effective range) while also dealing similar damage per shot. so yeah, nothing to justify the sniper-like charge time.
30~40m/s. if projectile size and splash are reduced a bit to compensate, then I don’t see why slow needs to be removed. if slow on turrets are to be removed, then sym orbs need to be like heading towards mei icicle territory to justify the 1s charge time.
so you’re saying that pretty much all the below plays being pretty much no longer possible simply due to the high guaranteed minimum down time between tp, is the player’s fault…?
17 Hp and a Dream | Unkillable #1 Symmetra - YouTube : 1st tp to effectively give him access to hard cover and elevation escape without hard disengaging. 2nd tp to escape the 2+ rush on him + take out widow. with new tp, he would’ve hard disengaged when he went off high ground or at most got up and had to rely on teammates to save him from winston or the subsequent rush after. defs no widow pick with new tp.
Flanking With Symmetra | Stevo - YouTube : 1st tp for dueling ball. 2nd tp for bombing enemy backline. he wouldn’t have tp back in time for that with new tp
I Did All I Could.....Lunar Tie - YouTube 1st tp to get the rein back up on high ground but he noticed too late and it got destroyed (can’t really blame tp for that, it was even placed where he was). 2nd tp for the flank on zen. with new tp he would’ve missed the flank on zen
I Did All I Could.....Lunar Tie - YouTube : 1st tp to escape winston. 2nd tp for the moira pick and double orb on brig. new tp wouldn’t be up in time for the 2nd play.
Stevo Full Holds Blizzard World With All Golds - YouTube : 1st tp for bomb (attempt) and better angle. had 2nd tp available for escaping the rein but messed up cast hence death (can see the animation for tp being quickly brought up but canceled; he would’ve made it too). but with new tp, there wouldn’t have been a chance at all.
Lijiang Tower Tele Strats With Stevo - YouTube : 1st tp for sending turret to allies for peel + angle + rein dodge, 2nd tp for hanzo pick. legit with new tp, he would’ve gotten tp back at the time he got the pick on hanzo with old tp and for all we know hanzo probably would’ve been healed up by then in the new tp situation.
Symmetra nerfs are probably devs not wanting people to play her again until they rework her sadly.