not true because the excerpt you’re pointing to is talking about 2.0 whereas my reply to you has been pretty much all about 3.0. the mention about tp being he method to switch between modes of play should’ve been a dead giveaway that I was talking about 3.0.
- it’s not “team pocket her for 3s”, it’s “team pocket her into 12m of the enemy, then keep within 12m of the enemy until the fight’s over”. sym will get shredded quickly if she stops getting pocketed in 12m irrespective of whether her primary’s charged or not. and no sensible team will just stop collectively pushing and run off doing something else after banding together get close and brawl in close range for >3s for sym to get charge unless the fight’s already over. it’d be throwing the fight otherwise.
- the analogy is to show how unreasonable it is to “balance”/keep sym of hard requiring a team pocket for her to contribute. of course mccree, ashe, and various other heroes aren’t balanced to require the same level of team pocketing to contribute: because it’s completely unreasonable and unhealthy for the game to do so and that’s my point. why say it’s fine for sym yet holding similar unreasonable expectations for many other heroes aren’t?
are you actually? because if you actually take into all the factors such as consistency for each of her tools, you’d see how unrealistic it is to claim “easy kills” and to take a stance of “she’s fine because of her high damage potential” esp when comparing to other heroes. like even if we wanted to look at the max damage potential that can possibly be done and ignore everything else about heroes for such a stance, sym wouldn’t be that high either since heroes like widow and mccree would be ranked higher in being able to 1~2 shot everyone all the time with headshots.
I explicitly said old 3.0 finite tp cast frequency. that’s not having a tp cast every 2s.
all which requiring a team pocket to get in close in the first place as well as to keep sym alive to use and maintain it up until she can get out.
does genji need a team pocket or some other equivalent team gatekeeping for him to have opportunities to flank or kill? no. he’s got enough mobility himself to get himself in his closer effective range and enough burst for him to not need to stay long (because he doesn’t have the sustain to stay long).
does widow need a team pocket or some other equivalent team gatekeeping for him to have opportunities to flank or kill? no. she’s got the longest effective range in the game being a hitscan sniper so that wasd is mostly enough for her get in effective range to start contributing meaningfully. she even has hook to get her better angles.
sym? low sustain, low effective range and with tp being trashed in down time —> low mobility and lost a lot of availability on her burst combo —> rely heavily on team pocketing for her to get opportunities to meaningfully contribute.
why would I go through the tedious effort of re-typing the same objective math and points that prove how orbs’ effective range being short when I can quote/copy-paste them?
- they’re not because most of the match time is spent >12m
- you literally cannot expect a hero with low mobility and low sustain to be using a low range sustain damage weapon fire for most of their play time, especially when such a weapon fire starts at a low 60dps. like is hog’s or mei’s m1 their mainstay fire? no because they’re too situational just like sym’s m1 and hence they use m2 for most of their gameplay.
- because of the point above, if any weapon fire’s the subsidiary one, it’s sym’s m1.
except I’ve literally shown you the math that proves how the “if landed properly” for sym’s orbs is a really big “if” in many ranges hence their effective range definitely not being infinite.
again, do you snipe with genji’s, echo’s, junkrat’s, pharah’s or other slower projectiles like a widow would (with the same expected accuracy outcome) just because they don’t have falloff? I don’t think so.
except they’re not better nor do they match junkrat’s zoning value. they cover less area due to sniper-like charge time (less spam), they’re just linear without mechanics to linger to cover more area, they deal less splash damage, and junkrat bombs have more angles because of rebound which can also let him do so without los (i.e. in cover).
I’m not saying orbs should be the same as junkrat bombs, but they aren’t good for spam.
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uuhh if you can’t compare between 2 things, you can’t judge as to which one’s better, and if you can’t judge which is better, you can’t possibly make any claims as to whether if either of them is fine or need changes.
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that paragraph is just a counterpoint to your argument of “it doesn’t have falloff range, therefore by definition it’s effective range is infinite”. idk how you construed subjectivity or bias in a (factual) statement regarding the (lack of) viability of trying to snipe like some sort of widow with slow projectiles. projectile speed matters. the slower a projectile is, the more time it gives enemies to see and react/dodge them. idk what bias are you seeing in such a point.
like do I really need to show all the steps of how I got the above numbers? I’ve already provided the projectile speed of 25m/s. most heroes move 5.5m/s and splash radius is 2m. and speed = distance/time. surely it’s not hard to verify now that you definitely have everything needed to do those calcs.
ok a lot to unpack here and it’s had to unpack in a structured order because everything’s interwined.
Firstly, it was “choose between team use or own use” before infinite tp as well because it was a fixed 12s between casts minimum i.e. you had to commit to a placement back then too.
old 3.0 finite tp had a pretty fair balance for dynamic vs commitment. if it was place poorly or destroyed early, the closer to 12s down time you experienced. if it was 100% utilised without the enemy destroying it, then the enemies were punished in sym having 2s experienced down time. it doesn’t make sense to punish sym with basically the full cd length of down time irrespective of how well she placed and utilised it which is what infinite tp does with its current cd mechanic.
infinite tp in adding that extra forced downtime isn’t making sym try to be smarter, it’s simply just adding in excessive limitations that prevent smart play.
even in this example it shows what I’m talking about. like you put down a team tp and waited 8s before using it, that’s 8s of down time added. and if the enemy didn’t do anything to counter that, whether if that’s destroying tp, cc, camp or simply taking a better position for whatever the tp was for, that’s literally the enemy being bad and it doesn’t make sense to punished sym for them being bad.
not to mention, where would you be team tp’ing that’d be valuable AND can have cover from the enemy for 8s as your team just sits around 1 spot? like many valuable spots aren’t very hidden and often just needs 1 corner turn to see where 1 of the entrances are at (esp given los for placement condition on tp).
it was a hyperbole but now, you have many chunks of >=10s periods of hero down time i.e. time where sym is stuck outside of her effective range with no tool to get herself into effective range for something else that’d be actively valuable. no moving turrets to a more active spot (without destruction in midair for a lot of angles), no flank, no front lining and no team utility, unless she gets team pocketed. of which sym doesn’t have much control over.
Not to mention if you put tp down for a purpose (like say spawn tp or high ground tp) but you (or your team) aren’t interacting with tp in that uptime, that period is also down time because tp isn’t contributing anything during that time and you as sym have your core tool contribute stuck for something else.
you may say “so destroy tp then to get it back sooner”, but the problem is how you’d be getting many fixed 10s chunks of hero down time for that which then encourages you to leave it where it is (assuming if relevant enough). this in contrast to old 3.0 finite tp where you would’ve been able to more fluidly transition to another use case where you saw fit to meet the team’s needs.
hence what I mean by excessive limitation preventing smart play.
it literally does not. having to wait 10s before being able to switch purposes or positions is much less versatile than one which you periodically get casts that let you choose between keeping the current use/position vs moving.
we literally had old 3.0 finite tp for years across various metas and it hasn’t been a problem at all and sym was underperforming throughout those years. not even in the really coordinated pro setting where they legit pretty much used it for the same taxi purposes back then just like now.
sym in double shield was legit pretty much w+m1. sym defs was replaced in that meta. why try breaking shields when you can go around it whilst not needing to charge up? that’s why she was replaced.
winrate doesn’t mean much when there’s a very few amount of people picking her because higher variance. sym 1.0 had low pickrate and even higher winrate yet her kit was really trash.
not to mention your stance wouldn’t historically make sense. sym back then definitely was stronger than now due to all the nerfs. you’re saying sym back then was OP due to tp, but she definitely wasn’t meta back then nor had any prevalence making a contradiction. even an overtuned hero would have prevalence over like the 2yrs or so we had 3.0 finite tp. and if tp was actually OP, the pros definitely would’ve “discovered” abusive uses esp since they definitely did explore it considering how they came up with the team tp → widow switch strat.
you tell me when you re-read what you said below:
ok you defs don’t play nor see much sym play.
- how the hell is a 2s deployment time on tp “instant” or “not trackable”?
- how is sym needing to legit appear in around melee range of the enemy to use the combo ON TOP OF THE 2s DEPLOYMENT TIME WHERE TP BLOOM ANIMATION SHOWS WHERE SYM WILL APPEAR SAFE? esp when her combo doesn’t instant kill and needs like 1s of primary after the melee to get the kill?
- also what are you talking about regarding 2 quick successive kills? that’s genji dash not sym’s tp.
and as I pointed out earlier, if sym is waiting while tp is up, that’s down time for her. meanwhile from the target’s perspective, they can work on destroying tp while sym waits i.e. net loss on sym’s side (hence why syms don’t place it down then delay interact). esp the case if there’s multiple enemies there in which tp will be destroyed in under a second. a lot of heroes can destroy tp in around 2s by themselves (remember the 2s deployment time btw).
if sym was using tp as a decoy, either she’s already in effective range of you or she’s already riding a team pocket push. the former is no issue (just shoot her) and the latter is easy to check if she’s planning to go through tp or not because of the interaction range on tp (not going to go through if not close to tp)).
except tracer’s 12s blink cd is ticking away continuously during her uptime rather than like current sym’s tp in that the cd is fully and always only starting when her downtime starts, which in turn makes her downtime longer (much longer). i.e. tracer blink cd is ticking away as she is fighting. her recall cd is ticking as she starts another engagement too (assuming she isn’t too low). with infinite tp sym does not have this parallelised efficiency.
like I have legit shown you a timeline diagram showing the difference. idk why this difference is so hard to grasp for people?
team uses are highly situational unlike sym’s individual uses whose opportunities arise much more frequently. like a team doesn’t need choke tp when away from choke, nor a spawn tp when no-one’s close to respawning, nor a high ground tp of they already have high ground and don’t intend to alternate frequently, etc. but sym infiltrating to claim new area, flanking for picks, escaping threats, grabbing better angles foe orbs or primary, etc. all of those uses have more frequent opportunities arising.
team uses are legit the situational ones here. and if a sym isn’t using tp for herself at all, THAT’S the incorrect usage as there’s plenty of opportunities for value being missed. hence why infinite tp that inherently forces you to pick 1 use case and then either lock you into it or lock you out of tp for long periods of time, is catastrophically detrimental.
if a sym goes for a tp-orb-melee combo flank, most likely they will get low from that engagement. if she then tps back and transitions immediately straight into a “w+m1 battering ram” situation, she’s most likely dead. going for a tp-orb melee flank to immediately front lining is simply unrealistic. esp when you consider how such a play can even occur positoning-wise
i.e. you place tp down for 2s, the flank itself is probably another 2s or so. meaning somehow the frontline did not progress in either direction for like approx 4s while tp is also somehow near the frontline without being camped nor destroyed (and somehow not giving away sym’s flank) just so sym can immediately transition to w+m1 frontlining.
a lot of your arguments rely on “potential” but never on how realistic the potential is. I’m telling you a lot of what you’re expecting is unlikely and gave various points backed by data and facts on her kit e.g. the calculations on how orbs showing how low their effective range is, showing the difference in tp cd mechanics, various comparisons, etc.