I think they mean stronger in a way that Sym can use it individually
I have addressed it. I see no reason why you wouldn’t ever have a tp to cast. That’s on you as the player to know when & how to use TP. I am almost constantly moving it, but it depends on the scenario. Sometimes you just need a spawn taxi.
An extra 3m of range requires less of a team pocket because you can hit from further away without needing your team to be in front of you. But, you probably should play with your team a good amount of the time? Constantly flanking is risky & applying massive pressure on a choke can waste a lot of time for the enemy team
They don’t conflict… does Zarya just W+M1 because she has a 15m beam? No. Her secondary fire is very valuable, just as Sym’s would be too. You saying Zarya is just W+M1 tells me maybe you don’t know what you’re talking about. What it would do is make Symmetra more well rounded
First of all, every scenario is different. You might only be behind them for 1.5-2.5s, or you could be behind them for 5-10. It depends on the pressure your team is applying on the other side & also how you play. There is no set scenario.
Also, in what world are you able to perform that clip in a competitive environment lol… what was that, deathmatch? You were 1v1ing a Moira…
I’m talking about a competitive environment, not a TDM/deathmatch one.
If you’re TPing literally into the enemy team & orb/meleeing them you probably aren’t going to survive… maybe now I understand your issue. That is not how I use TP. I TP a safe distance behind or above the enemy & harass them from an off angle. If they turn to fight me my team has free fire on them from the other side, if they ignore me I have free fire on them from an off angle & I can go back and forth between TP depending on what’s the best play at the time.
Just as an example, I was pushing Hollywood streets yesterday & the enemy team was holding their ground in front of it, my team couldn’t push cart. I TP’d to the 2nd level of the Saloon which was behind/to the side of the enemy team. The enemy team had no choice but to retreat because I quickly got level 3 charge off of their Rein & he could do nothing but backpedal because he can’t fight back. I used the balcony for cover & ended up getting a quad kill because they had no way to both contest me & my team who was pushing hard because of the space I created. In that scenario, all I had to do was W+M1. TPing into their team & trying to orb/melee them would have gotten me killed.
I really don’t understand what you mean by decently available…
It is a teleporter that can move entire teams 30m away with a 10 second cooldown. Her TP is a great tool. I also don’t want to just improve her flanking capabilities, I want to make her overall a better hero.
I suggested buffing her orb damage… no one is just focusing on her primary…
I want her to be well rounded… not a W+M1 bot or an Orb bot. I want her to be versatile. I have been very clear in this.
Unnecessary & the last thing I want.
You mean like, giving it more range & lowering the damage so it’s valuable but not oppressive? 
Idk why you’re having trouble understanding that giving her more range makes it easier for Sym to be in her effective range, because it’s larger.
It’s a powerful team tool that she can also use individually. I’m not sure exactly what changes they’re proposing
People also need to stop trying to justify keeping Symmetra in the pits because of her “Potential” damage i dont care if her turrets do 100 dps each they are destroyed in one hit by the entire roster oh also they are an ABILITY with a HUGE CD her having turrets is not an excuse for her gun to be unusable in most settings.
Torbs got a turret his gun is still perfectly viable on its own.
It doesn’t fix any of her problems.
She still needs something even remotely fast in her kit.
Faster ball charge.
Faster teleporter activation.
Anything.
These changes don’t really help her that much. They won’t “do nothing,” but they’re also not going to do anything that she actually needs. Sure, 3 m is okay, but at the cost of ~15% of your medium-and-top-end damage? Part of Symmetra’s problem right now is that, unless she can get to high charge, her weapon is supremely underwhelming. An extra 3 m won’t change that–even at 15 m, there are very few DPS heroes who can’t or won’t out-damage her by a considerable margin. The extra damage to Orb seems enticing as a means to offset this, but frankly, it didn’t really help her before. I don’t really see why it would now, considering Orb’s problem is less so its damage and more so how its low speed make it more effective as a CQC weapon while its charge time make it more suited to a ranged weapon.
A much better set of changes would be something like:
- Secondary projectile speed from 25 m/s to 35 m/s
- Change damage from 60/120/180 to 80/130/180
- Turret damage reduced from 40 DPS to 35 DPS
These changes accomplish a few things… firstly, the orb changes make her more competitive at range. Essentially same idea as the range increase, but on a tool which is already (ostensibly) created to be used at range. Then, rather than putting the damage increase on orbs, it’s going on beam–the riskier part of her kit, which should correspondingly be higher-reward since it requires her to be in range and, for longer term value, to commit to its usage. Upping the medium damage rewards this commitment somewhat, but upping the low-end damage allows to her play a little more effectively when she can’t make that commitment, so she’s going to be more roundly applicable even when she can’t sit at hold M1 for extended periods. Finally, toning down the turret damage is there to help counteract these changes and make her a little less dependent on her turrets for damage–but overall, Symm is a wildly underperforming hero and has been nearly irrespective of meta, so I don’t think she needs large compensatory nerfs. I think this Symmetra would be considerably better-rounded out as a hero than the one you propose, which would likely to struggle to see value given the harsh slashes to her top-end damage.
But… all that said, I would prefer to see Symmetra receive more-aggressive changes. Either a half-revert to 2.0, or a rework to Support, would be preferable to any of the above changes.
you really don’t address it because:
having a guaranteed 10s chunk of hard waiting/down time on a hero’s core tool to actively do anything is not having it reasonably often enough.
there is no “constantly moving it” with the current tp. it’s put it somewhere, decide whether to commit more than you already have or suffer 10s of extra hero down time.
unlike the old one where the down time experienced is capped and only high if you as the sym player either:
- placed it poorly/self destruct bug
- enemy destroyed it early
- or you decide to not use it/your use case was just a 1 way quick trip
as an example of the core difference I’m talking about here, imagine how rein would play if his shield had a 10s cd tied to it that only starts when the barrier’s deactivated or destroyed. or imagine if tracer’s blinks (all of them) had a tied cd with her recall in that they only start until all blinks and recall have been used. how would they play?
very rigidly, having a whole lot of down time due to waiting and becoming much more niche and team dependent?
yeah, that’s sym rn with her tp.
again, if zarya, whose primary is also 15m and sustain damage, i.e. plays at 15m range and has a weapon of similar nature to sym’s to get value, needs tank level sustain to be beaming as you described, what makes you think sym can beam from the same range and with similar frequency AND duration per engagement with much less sustain?
“playing with the team” != “require being team pocketed to contribute”
many heroes like soldier, zen, ana, junkrat, torb, mccree, lucio, etc. all “play with the team” for a very good chunk of their match time, but none of them require a team pocket to contribute meaningful active value.
you’re missing or dodging the point here:
- you claim 15m primary will make sym be able to have more uptime via beaming yet blatantly deny and/or neglect how zarya needs all her tank-level sustain to play at 15m with wasd mobility which you aren’t providing in your suggestions
- you then claim that sym isn’t supposed to or not going to be beaming for most of her gameplay which then contradict your intention behind the 15m change anyways
- while at the same time not addressing why her other tools can’t be used well to play outside of 15m or to not rely on sustain to wasd in like a zarya and even intending some of them not to e.g. how you said orbs should have lower effective range
The fact that you even acknowledge that zarya isn’t always in 15m for beam despite her sustain and despite how she’s the front line further supports my point of how simply slapping on 15m on sym’s primary isn’t going to change much especially since you’re also not addressing why sym flanking (whether to zone or for picks) and orb usage in midranged are poor and/or often inaccessible.
legit this whole defense for that point: Stevo Abuses The Backline - YouTube
yet your very example here will literally be nerfed via your suggestions because you’d be trying to beam with sub-sombra level dps rather than soldier dps and the 15m wouldn’t have been of much help anyways because there isn’t >=15m between payload road and the saloon balcony.
and what’d actually help it is if tp was more available so that you can do that more often among various other use cases tp has.
except the resultant gameplay won’t be affected much. again, sym will still rely very much on team pocketing to function after this.
if you truly want to make sym more versatile and actually be more well rounded in terms of when and where she can function rather than “I want an even distribution of usage time across all the elements in her kit” then:
- make orbs balanced around being aimed and mid-ranged i.e. making them move faster for more range and consistency, and consider reducing splash radius and/or projectile size
- general ranged option (can provide better decent opportunities to contribute even when tp is down)
- general ranged option (can provide better decent opportunities to contribute even when tp is down)
- make tp more frequent like old 3.0 finite tp
- tool to get in and out of effective range more available —> grab more opportunities to contribute
- can adapt better to the situation to switch between moving zones, flanking, front lining, midrange harassment, or team utility because it’s up more often to do so without much delay in between
- tool to get in and out of effective range more available —> grab more opportunities to contribute
- redistribute primary dps or just make lvl1 dps 80dps so that it’s more of an option in close range
- better close range option
- better close range option
well rounded and versatile is not the same as “uniform usage time across all elements of their kit”. undoubtedly many heroes, even the most generalist ones, will be using their weapon most and even primarily only using 1 weapon fire most of the time.
or just straight up doing away with the charge up mechanic that one has to tip toe around when trying to balance it in the first place to allow more range…
remember how you’re saying even zarya isn’t spending much time in 15m to laser? if a front line hero with that much sustain is like that, and you’re trying to make sym play in 15m without much tools to operate outside of 15m and with only wasd to get into 15m range, and with much less sustain, it’s really not hard to see how it’s not going to help.
“hey the front line is spending a lot of time >15m away from the enemy. guess sym whose got less sustain can just wasd past them to beam without dying right?” 
Zarya is also a 400 hp tank with barriers but ok
1 Like
Because Zarya is a tank. Zarya’s job is to create space for her team which is why she needs tank level sustain. Symmetra is not a tank. Symmetra does not need tank level sustain because her job is not to create space for her team, it’s to deal damage. Symmetra has her TP & turrets to help her in finding ways to deal damage. Your mistake is assuming that Sym & Zarya having the same length beam means they have the same job, they don’t. Zarya presses W to deal & take damage. Symmetra either follows her (or can push ahead slightly if Zar has a bubble for her) or can flank. They are 2 very different heroes, there really is no equating them.
Sym doesn’t require a team pocket either unless you insist on staying with your tanks the entire time instead of taking off angles/flanking when it’s advantageous to… it’s not one or the other. You aren’t always flanking. You aren’t always staying with your team. You’re doing whatever the situation calls for, just like all of those other heroes.
I don’t like this argument, I’ve seen it before made with other heroes.
Let me ask you a direct question. Will a 15m beam allow her to charge her beam sooner?
The answer is very clearly yes. You can hit from further away. And I addressed the whole Zarya thing. Sym does not need tank level sustain…she is not a tank.
I never said that…
Idk how many times I have to repeat myself. I want her kit to be well rounded. You have already said (or maybe someone else did) that most of her gameplay currently revolves around Orbs. I don’t want her to be so lopsided. I want her to be Well rounded. I don’t want her beaming for most of her gameplay. I also don’t want her beaming for a fraction of her gameplay. I want to utilize her entire kit… something you are seemingly not on board for since you seem to be adamantly against buffing M1 besides making it give extra ult charge (which more range would accomplish)
It’s fine. We can agree to disagree. I can see how the extra range would be great for her, you can’t, and that’s fine. I’m just trying to make Symmetra a better hero, something range would definitely do considering her orbs are already her short range tool. Might as well make her beam a bit better at mid range.
Again, let me ask you a direct question, because you seem to be pointing to things that don’t make any sense.
Does Zarya do a lot of damage with her beam when high charged?
The obvious answer is yes, but I’d still like you to answer. Everyone can admit that. On average, Zarya is dealing 150DPS with her beam at high charge (because she only deals 170 when at exactly 100 charge which is only ever temporary, high charge Zaryas are closer to 80 charge throughout the fight) which is the damage I suggest Sym should have at level 3 with a 15m beam. If Zarya melts people with 150dps, so will Sym, especially since Sym can flank and has turrets to add to her DPS.
We’ll agree to disagree. I think more range would make her less team reliant because she can more reliably flank or pressure choke without having to be as close to the enemy & take damage.
Not a bad option… however I’d rather have a 15m beam so I can contest Zarya with Symmetra (because currently Zarya can beam Sym to death without consequence, I think matching their beams would be good for Sym & the game as a whole in dealing with Zarya) and by the time I get within 12m I’m already Level 2, dealing more damage than an 80dps level 1 beam at 12m.
I’d need more specific details on this, because Symmetra constantly being at a high DPS would be busted unless they nerfed her in other ways. Level 3 Symmetra is scary
No, I don’t remember that. Zarya spends a good amount of time beaming within 15m.
Only if you ignore what I’ve said.
Nope, but not totally surprised you’re misrepresenting & simplifying my argument to not make any sense.
You have a TP, use it.
Yep. Key word, tank.
And Symmetra is a “key word” dps.
So I’m confused as to why she needs more damage nerfs. She’s supposed to be doing damage that’s her role. Zarya on the other hand is a tank with more hp and barriers, and frankly doesn’t need to do so much damage. She even has more beam range.
I bet if they gave Zarya a 12m beam every YouTuber, streamer, and their mothers would lose their minds.
Daily reminder that Symmetra still sucks.
It depends on how you look at it. Are you really dealing less damage?
Yes, my suggested changes include lowering Level 2 charge from 120->105DPS, and Level 3 charge from 180->150DPS, however Symmetra on live deals 0 damage past 12m with her beam on live, where with my suggested changes she can deal 150DPS up to 15m away which would change many interactions. Also, by the time you get within 12m with a 15m beam Sym would likely already be at Level 2 charge, meaning she would be dealing 105DPS compared to only 60dps on live
Just a few obvious interactions that would change
- Symmetra could contest/deter/kill Zarya since their beams would be the same length. No more free kills for Zarya. They would also pair better together with 2 high damage death beams from 15m away.
- Symmetra would be even better vs. Reinhardt, being able to pressure him even further away which would especially help if he has a Lucio to speed boost into her face.
- Pretty much every hero would have a tougher time vs. Symmetra with more range.
Hopefully with these new interactions lower ranks would be more inclined to play Dive & less Rein/Zar. I honestly think a longer range Sym would fix a lot of issues.
TL;DR Within 12m she would deal less. from 12.01m->15m she would be dealing 150 more DPS.
And how would this work with the amount of healing in the game?
On live I don’t believe her TTK is significantly higher than any of the other dps
So what if they made it so that primary and secondary charge up the beam, and that damage boosts charge it up faster.
Just convert the time between beams charge levels to the damage one would do over the current time with the beam.
Hard to say. All I want to do is test these changes, I never claimed they’re 100% balanced. But, I do think if Sym got a 15m beam that 180DPS at level 3 would be too much.
If we somehow end up trying this on experimental & her beam isn’t dealing enough damage, I’m totally open to buffing it. But in my mind 180dps would be overkill. 100 charge Zarya doesn’t even do that much & she melts people. Even at 80 charge (where Zarya is dealing around the same damage I’m suggesting Sym should have, 150) Zarya melts people. Sym would too. And on top of that Sym still has her turrets to add to her damage.
It’s also worth noting that there are 0 healers that can heal 150HP/s, not even Moira (she heals 135hp/s with both Primary & her orb) so just to even try to keep their ally alive they would have to dump all of their resources into them.
I can honestly imagine Sym being great with a 15m beam even with reduced damage. There have been countless times where I was just out of range to finish someone off. I would like to end that lol.
Dont try it this guy is a walking contradiction, he thinks that Sym having the same range that a hero with triple the survivability that her will somehow break her, even if Sym mains tell him that wont happen at all.
1 Like
Why would you nerf her damage though? Especially when she already struggles to use her primary in a consistent way. The heck. Did you play her right after 3.0 launched? Her primary was so bad,people resorted to using orbs instead for consistent damage. And no doubt the same would happen with your changes.
I’d understand the damage nerf if the range increased and the time required to charge up decreased. But even those reasons are hardly justified. She’s supposed to be a Damage dealing hero.
Besides,if Zarya can have twice the HP Sym does,ways to protect herself and her teammates,which also act as beam chargers and a strong ult while being meta most of the time and being considered balanced by most of the community,then I’m sure giving buffs to Sym without any “compensation” nerfs will be alright.
1 Like
Her TTK is lowerst to all other dps unless she can precharge her beam, upon which its above like… Mei or Sombra at best, since 180 is still just the dps of soldier bodyshots.
Thats not counting that she has no other real damage sources, no damage ultimate to fall back on, and destroyable sentries.
If only they reverted her turret damage to 50 or at least reduced the cooldown of those dang things
And they still do against anything that is smaller that the broad side of a barn.
2 Likes
True but I remember people using her primary even less than nowadays.
Still.
They either need to increase the speed of her orbs or just remove the charging mechanic and make her do a fixed amount of damage.
But why do I bother,we’ve been asking Blizz for over a year at this point and they’re like Symmetra whomst. “We constantly discuss Sym,but she’s not our highest priority.”
Refer to my comment just a couple above yours, I answer this question.
She will be dealing less damage within 12m, yes, but she will be dealing 150DPS from 12m->15m where she deals 0 now. You lose some damage in the short range, but you get a huge damage buff at a range you previously dealt zero. I also suggest buffing her orb damage back to 140 which is what you would probably use in closer range anyways.
I’ve addressed this already.
Let me ask you. Does Zarya deal a lot of damage with her beam? I would think you would say yes. A followup question I would ask is, how much of the time is Zarya at exactly 100 charge? Not often, and not consistently. I think we can both agree that Zarya is more often floating around 80 charge or so. I didn’t do the math but you’re more than welcome to, I think she deals around 150dps at 80 charge. 150dps is nothing to scoff at. With no other damage involved, Symmetra would kill 200hp heroes in just 1.33s. That doesn’t include help from a turret or two, or three.
Even with my proposed damage nerfs to her level 2 & level 3 charge, she would be dealing damage at a range she previously didn’t. The value of that is incomparable. Also keep in mind she will be reaching level 2 & level 3 sooner than she does on live because she can charge from further away, so aside from long teamfights where you’re within 12m at Level 3 you’re going to be dealing more damage, not less. If the enemy goes out of that 12m range you’ll still be dealing 150dps where as of right now you deal 0