How I would Balance Symmetra & Make her a more Well Rounded Hero

[Zephrin-11143]

@Poytheon-1466

I see no reason why you wouldn’t ever have a tp to cast. That’s on you as the player to know when & how to use TP. I am almost constantly moving it, but it depends on the scenario. Sometimes you just need a spawn taxi.
…
I really don’t understand what you mean by decently available…

you really don’t address it because:

@Zephrin-11143

Most other abilities and sym’s old 3.0 finite tp:

timeline of cd:            |-------------------------------|
timeline of getting value: |+++++++++++| ability down time |

Sym’s current infinite tp:

timeline of cd:                        |-------------------------------|
timeline of getting value: |+++++++++++|       ability down time       |

having a guaranteed 10s chunk of hard waiting/down time on a hero’s core tool to actively do anything is not having it reasonably often enough.

there is no “constantly moving it” with the current tp. it’s put it somewhere, decide whether to commit more than you already have or suffer 10s of extra hero down time.

unlike the old one where the down time experienced is capped and only high if you as the sym player either:

• placed it poorly/self destruct bug
• enemy destroyed it early
• or you decide to not use it/your use case was just a 1 way quick trip

as an example of the core difference I’m talking about here, imagine how rein would play if his shield had a 10s cd tied to it that only starts when the barrier’s deactivated or destroyed. or imagine if tracer’s blinks (all of them) had a tied cd with her recall in that they only start until all blinks and recall have been used. how would they play?
very rigidly, having a whole lot of down time due to waiting and becoming much more niche and team dependent?
yeah, that’s sym rn with her tp.

@Poytheon-1466

@Zephrin-11143

and you failing to see how that still requires a team pocket to even get charge in the first place is not me “not thinking outside of the box”.

An extra 3m of range requires less of a team pocket because you can hit from further away without needing your team to be in front of you.

again, if zarya, whose primary is also 15m and sustain damage, i.e. plays at 15m range and has a weapon of similar nature to sym’s to get value, needs tank level sustain to be beaming as you described, what makes you think sym can beam from the same range and with similar frequency AND duration per engagement with much less sustain?

@Poytheon-1466

But, you probably should play with your team a good amount of the time? Constantly flanking is risky & applying massive pressure on a choke can waste a lot of time for the enemy team

“playing with the team” != “require being team pocketed to contribute”
many heroes like soldier, zen, ana, junkrat, torb, mccree, lucio, etc. all “play with the team” for a very good chunk of their match time, but none of them require a team pocket to contribute meaningful active value.

@Poytheon-1466

@Zephrin-11143

what you intend/say vs what your changes will result in are 2 conflicting things.

like you say to keep orbs shorter effective ranged, then suggest to make primary 15m (the same range as zarya) but then claim that she’s not meant to be w+m1 like a zarya despite not addressing anything that’s hindering her ability to let her play further than 15m away or play a different game style that’s not w+m1 like zarya.

They don’t conflict… does Zarya just W+M1 because she has a 15m beam? No. Her secondary fire is very valuable, just as Sym’s would be too. You saying Zarya is just W+M1 tells me maybe you don’t know what you’re talking about. What it would do is make Symmetra more well rounded

you’re missing or dodging the point here:

• you claim 15m primary will make sym be able to have more uptime via beaming yet blatantly deny and/or neglect how zarya needs all her tank-level sustain to play at 15m with wasd mobility which you aren’t providing in your suggestions
• you then claim that sym isn’t supposed to or not going to be beaming for most of her gameplay which then contradict your intention behind the 15m change anyways
  • while at the same time not addressing why her other tools can’t be used well to play outside of 15m or to not rely on sustain to wasd in like a zarya and even intending some of them not to e.g. how you said orbs should have lower effective range

The fact that you even acknowledge that zarya isn’t always in 15m for beam despite her sustain and despite how she’s the front line further supports my point of how simply slapping on 15m on sym’s primary isn’t going to change much especially since you’re also not addressing why sym flanking (whether to zone or for picks) and orb usage in midranged are poor and/or often inaccessible.

@Poytheon-1466

Also, in what world are you able to perform that clip in a competitive environment lol… what was that, deathmatch? You were 1v1ing a Moira…
I’m talking about a competitive environment, not a TDM/deathmatch one.
If you’re TPing literally into the enemy team & orb/meleeing them you probably aren’t going to survive…

legit this whole defense for that point: https://youtu.be/lrDlslvOyYo?t=141

@Poytheon-1466

Just as an example, I was pushing Hollywood streets yesterday & the enemy team was holding their ground in front of it, my team couldn’t push cart. I TP’d to the 2nd level of the Saloon which was behind/to the side of the enemy team. The enemy team had no choice but to retreat because I quickly got level 3 charge off of their Rein & he could do nothing but backpedal because he can’t fight back. I used the balcony for cover & ended up getting a quad kill because they had no way to both contest me & my team who was pushing hard because of the space I created. In that scenario, all I had to do was W+M1. TPing into their team & trying to orb/melee them would have gotten me killed.

yet your very example here will literally be nerfed via your suggestions because you’d be trying to beam with sub-sombra level dps rather than soldier dps and the 15m wouldn’t have been of much help anyways because there isn’t >=15m between payload road and the saloon balcony.

and what’d actually help it is if tp was more available so that you can do that more often among various other use cases tp has.

@Poytheon-1466

I suggested buffing her orb damage… no one is just focusing on her primary…

I want her to be well rounded … not a W+M1 bot or an Orb bot. I want her to be versatile. I have been very clear in this.

except the resultant gameplay won’t be affected much. again, sym will still rely very much on team pocketing to function after this.

if you truly want to make sym more versatile and actually be more well rounded in terms of when and where she can function rather than “I want an even distribution of usage time across all the elements in her kit” then:

• make orbs balanced around being aimed and mid-ranged i.e. making them move faster for more range and consistency, and consider reducing splash radius and/or projectile size
  • general ranged option (can provide better decent opportunities to contribute even when tp is down)
• make tp more frequent like old 3.0 finite tp
  • tool to get in and out of effective range more available —> grab more opportunities to contribute
  • can adapt better to the situation to switch between moving zones, flanking, front lining, midrange harassment, or team utility because it’s up more often to do so without much delay in between
• redistribute primary dps or just make lvl1 dps 80dps so that it’s more of an option in close range
  • better close range option

well rounded and versatile is not the same as “uniform usage time across all elements of their kit”. undoubtedly many heroes, even the most generalist ones, will be using their weapon most and even primarily only using 1 weapon fire most of the time.

@Poytheon-1466

@Zephrin-11143

or reworking primary entirely to not be oppressive but somehow still valuable when given more range.

You mean like, giving it more range & lowering the damage so it’s valuable but not oppressive?

or just straight up doing away with the charge up mechanic that one has to tip toe around when trying to balance it in the first place to allow more range…

@Poytheon-1466

@Zephrin-11143

why? because it doesn’t sufficiently address how sym can get herself in effective range often enough

Idk why you’re having trouble understanding that giving her more range makes it easier for Sym to be in her effective range, because it’s larger .

remember how you’re saying even zarya isn’t spending much time in 15m to laser? if a front line hero with that much sustain is like that, and you’re trying to make sym play in 15m without much tools to operate outside of 15m and with only wasd to get into 15m range, and with much less sustain, it’s really not hard to see how it’s not going to help.

“hey the front line is spending a lot of time >15m away from the enemy. guess sym whose got less sustain can just wasd past them to beam without dying right?”