How to "Flatten" Sym's Niche Without a "Rework"

General Discussion
1

Sym rn blatantly struggles to reasonably independently get uptime for her job unlike various other heroes’ for their respective uptime. I mean, even on face value, the fact that OWL has to absolutely rely on specific comps + specific maps + a dedicated strat centered around hard enabling her to get decent uptime unlike various other heroes should speak volumes. So here’s how to get her more generalised uptime without stepping on any of the “touchy” things the general community typically fearmongers about for sym.

Disclaimer: Most numbers are guidelines to give a better sense of the changes as opposed to something hard tested or absolute.

Orbs

  • increase projectile speed (e.g. 50~60m/s)
  • decrease max projectile size by 30~40%
  • decrease time to max charge to approx 0.75s

Sym orbs atm are simply terrible. They have a sniper-tier low firerate that demands precision (as there’s less shots to make per period of time) but the projectile speeds are so slow that aim physically matters little in whether one can land it in most ranges despite their size (i.e. physically unreasonable to aim in most ranges). As such the aim here is to make orbs reasonably aimable in midrange.

(For a more detailed mathematical proof of how poorly numbered orbs are, click here to expand) 1. Proof on how severely inconsistent orbs are

for further full working out using these equations, you can see my reddit post on calculating the “effective ranges” of most projectiles under certain conditions here:

  1. How bad orb damage is.

Considering how we’ve established how inconsistent/“un-aimable” orbs are, obvs as a burst weapon fire option it’s terrible for it’s low firerate.

As a sustain weapon fire, it’s also bad because 120 damage / (1s charge up + 0.25s wind down) = 96dps.
Now that’s simply terrible dps for a damage hero sustain damage weapon fire as it’s lower than a bodyshotting mercy pistol (100dps) let alone trying to compare against damage hero weapon fires that are closer in characteristics like junkrat bombs or pharah rockets.

Teleporter

  • cd timer starts upon placement and pauses when the timer hits halfway of the cd until destruction
  • sym (the castor) can immediately interact with the teleporter upon placing down rather than needing to wait for the full deployment to be complete
    • structures still need to wait for the full deployment to finish before being able to be transported
    • sym’s allies need to wait for the full deployment to finish + 0~1s extra before being able to interact with tp (0~1s i.e. if needed, can tweak to make allies wait longer before being able to interact)

Even with the orb changes, sym’s max effective range will ultimately still be midrange, and as such teleporter is the tool to let her get in and out of that effective range. As we move into OW2 where teams generally will be more spread out and players will ultimately need to be more self reliant for peeling and escapes, the need for an escape ability will increase. Currently her teleporter has too much down time and is too slow to accommodate for those needs. As such, these changes aim to allow teleporter to be more capable of decent self mobility with decent effective uptime and occasional/situational team utility.

(For a detailed explanation on what the cd mechanic change does, click here to expand)

Most other abilities and sym’s old 3.0 finite tp:

timeline of cd:            |-------------------------------|
timeline of getting value: |+++++++++++| ability down time |

Sym’s current infinite tp:

timeline of cd:                        |-------------------------------|
timeline of getting value: |+++++++++++|       ability down time       |

With this proposed mechanic, the situation is more akin to the top timeline with some caveats i.e.

  • if tp destroyed before hitting the halfway mark on cd, the effective downtime timeline is the same as the top timeline scenario
    • (tho in practice, old 3.0 tp would still have tp up during that down time unlike this proposed method which would technically still be less flexible in comparison)
  • if tp destroyed after hitting the halfway mark on cd, it’d be like the top timeline with effective downtime extended by uptime - 5s (which is shorter than the effective down time of current tp cd mechanic by 5s).

With these core changes, this will “generalise” sym more from her effective range will be longer (midrange) via orbs being more viable and from her having a mobility tool that’d let her more independently get in and out of that effective range (as well as getting the angles she desires).

None of these will really impact her primary, turrets nor team tp strats (in fact, there’s 1 point that could nerf team tp strats and probably to the point of obscurity if taken).

I’m not saying these are all that she needs, but these are the core things that’d be needed to be done to let sym have more reasonable independent uptime that’s similar to how much numerous other heroes do for their respective jobs.

5 Likes
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Honestly just make her Orb’s go through Barriers like they used to in 1.0 and 2.0. Make her the ultimate “screw barriers” character. Her Primary charges and gains ammo from them, and her Secondary just goes straight through them

Oh and the teleporter. Make it work like Sombra’s translocator. The cooldown starts as soon as you place it down

6 Likes
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the problem with piercing orbs is that you hard constrain them in being in the numerical limbo that it is in rn (if not make it worse from the possibility of having worse numbers like old orbs).

like right now it’s bad as a aimed precision weapon fire, and it’s bad as sustain damage weapon fire, and obvs as a “zoning” weapon fire it’s bad because it literally doesn’t have lingering mechanics to actually occupy + accumulate space (e.g. how junkrat bombs linger and with multiple in 1 area you “build up” a no-go zone for the enemy) and neither is it consistent enough to demand enemies to hide in cover like when they play against say a widow or some ranged hitscan.

making them unblockable except to DM/sigma grasp means none of the above can be actually reasonably improved (because it’d be oppressive when combined with being largely unblockable) and that basically leaves sym with terrible effective range that’s about as long as her primary (if not less) which she obvs struggles to get in and out of rn, let alone stay there long enough to get something done with orbs that way.

at face value it’d be nice. but when you start thinking about the scenarios whereby you can destroy tp and immediately put down another, you start to find edge cases where this is probs too strong
e.g. you had a spawn tp that actually did bring some teammates back sooner and then immediately after they interacted, you replaced that tp with 1 that skips choke or something of the like for your team which’d basically be like a semi res + a choke skipped.

4

People conjure up all these reworks but all she really needs is half her nerfs removed.

1 Like
5

lol the images…

anyway, I don’t think those TP changes would help her a lot tbh, yes she’ll be able to escape more and reposition better but on her own (and without her turrets) Sym is mediocre at best

As for the cooldown I proposed something similar a while ago that I liked to call an offset cooldown, when the sym player presses E again, the TP starts counting down from 5, the cd starts right there but the tp isn’t destroyed yet, that way allies and even sym herself can plan around the TP current position for 5 seconds

this in contrast requires some planning while yours remains on the chaos side of not knowing what the sym player is thinking plus it punishes bad TP placements quite hard

1 Like
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tbf, aside from the atrocious infinite tp nerf, the orb stuff can’t really be called “removing nerfs” because they’ve been that poorly numbered from the beginning (both 3.0 rework AND start of the game). :upside_down_face:

like the only orb changes they’ve really done are that 140 damage orbs and reverting back to 120, and then solving a bug regarding hit registry of orbs.

7

Ez, YOU GIVE HER 4 TURRETS

And 2 teleporters

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Shoot a bunch of tiny orbs, an onslaught of tiny slow orbs is still a bit difficult to dodge lol

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I mean, I never said this’d necessarily make her OP, meta nor even above average. But really just pointing to the very clear road (at least to me for all this time) that can be taken to make sym be able to get more uptime herself, and specifying the core/“must have” (agile terms) changes needed to achieve that.

there may be more “should have” changes on top of that but, the most important/necessary ones without needing a rework are those akin to the above.

the point of the tp changes is to encourage and allow sym tp to more be able to use it for herself like with old 3.0 tp.

the issue with the delayed destruction is that it’s adding down time for sym to relocate and/or repurpose tp. this is something that’d be much more important in OW2 as there’s only 1 tank who’ll be more aggro (i.e. in the enemy’s face) leaving the rest of the team to need to be more self reliant on cover + self peeling.

rn her parameters are:
low effective range, low mobility (as it’s got high downtime and windup), low burst and nowhere near enough sustain to compensate all those lows.

unless you plan on making sym somehow longer ranged than midranged, she will need more mobility to be able reach her effective range more often to be comparable to most other heroes in with how often they can reasonably independently get uptime.

10

not really. they have smaller size + they still travel the same speed as large orbs + the max firerate on orbs are 4 per second (which is also lower than mercy pistol btw which has 5 per second). not to mention they deal less dps too with 0 charge (lowest orb damage is approx 20, so we’re talking approx 80dps as opposed to 96 for full charge; i.e. really healable).

like if it takes X seconds to reach the target, that’s Xs the target has to move out of the trajectory.

like you’d only ever spam small orbs if you’re trying to secure a kill on a really really low hp target that’s outside of primary’s range. and even then it’s fairly “hail mary” due to all the aforementioned factors (size, slow speed, etc.)

11

I don’t know how to work a couple times for me before. It usually confuses people because they always expect the giant orb. Thing is if you shoot it like a wave it’s kind of impossible to dodge (unless you like jump over it with some ability or something)

12

I see what you mean but I think you’re not really on the spot about OW2 gameplay, having one less tank doesn’t mean that everyone needs to be more independent or at least that’s not how I see it, if anything teamwork is going to be a lot more important than it is nowadays (as impossible as that sounds)

Think about it, having one less tank means that your healers won’t linger around them for that long this turns into more healing for dps as long as they are in range so if you give sym (or any other hero really) more independence you are forcing healers to spread thin

that is not to say that sym couldn’t use a bit more self reliance in the current game bur for OW2 (and if she isn’t turned into a support) I think her kit doesn’t really needs much tweaks

13

In fairness, spamming small orbs while not effective at kills, is good for upsetting someone’s movement whilst aiming.

14

I still don’t get how people can unironically suggest to buff a Hero that has a consistent winrate of 55-60% for ages by now.

15

I disagree. with tanks being reworked/rebalanced to be more brawly (i.e. charge in be in their face more) and there only being 1 of them, it will absolutely mean that teams will generally play more spread out (unless they charge in with the tank which is coordination that doesn’t happen often in ladder) esp when you consider the fact that this + mobility passive for dps all results in mobility creep for everyone except supports.

factor in the fact that there’s global cc nerfs for non tanks and so we evidently there will be more emphasis on the non-tanks being more self reliant to fend for themselves if any flanker comes along.

not to mention how there will be an increased pace of the game from making tanks more brawly + only having 1 tank —> more frequent repositioning.

16

With the orbs, for those changes. You must lower the damage.

The thing about orbs is their ttk is odd.
2 orbs can kill. But it doesn’t take 1s to charge per orb. Because you’re charging the orb. So the next orb needs less charge.

So with your heavily decreased charge time and increased projectile speed, I fear it would be too consistent at killing fast when it shouldn’t kill that fast.

Personally, I would buff her speed on some thing she does but just slightly.
Turret cast? 0.35s.
Orb charge time? 0.9s
I would the

This just helps her in duels.
I would also tighten the dps on beam to be 100/135/170 with a longer charge time but more range.

There is so much that can be changed on Sym but I wouldn’t really net buff her too much

17

The problem is that many perceive her as “niche” being only good/useable on certain maps at certain times, and would rather a kit more useful in most situations, like say Tracer. I took up Echo in lieu of Sym because she’s just useful everywhere, and she isn’t headed likely into the Support role like Sym is thanks to the folks who pushed for it.

18

Sadly they need to speed up her kit to even be a garbage pick in 5v5. Better than being a useless pick like Bastion is.

All of your requests are reasonable and will most likely be similar to the final changes… but this just makes her more of a jack-of-all-trades hero. Mei will probably get similar changes, and soon Mei and Sym’s right clicks will pretty much be homogenous.

I wish the devs would consider going another route, and keep the uniqueness of what makes each hero standout kit wise. Sym has lost a lot of uniqueness from 2.0 to 3.0 (but 3.0 objectively was a power increase). And now she stands to lose more of her uniqueness, but she’s not the only one going through that.

19

They will likely move her to Support, where she can go from F-Tier DPS to F-Tier Support.

All they are doing with Mei thus far is removing Freeze from primary. They won’t do a hard rework on the kit. If they do anything more with Mei, it will be to buff her health and size, and make her a Brawler.

1 Like
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which is of little value on it’s own… ._.

if solely winrate told the whole story of things, we’d be thinking bastion has 0 problems with being near 50% winrate despite barely anyone picking him :expressionless:

I mean I did put a disclaimer about numbers there being a guideline rather than prescription but:

idk what the damage scaling is on orb charge, but if assuming linear:
(EDIT: forgot about 20 being approx base orb damage i.e. intercept (it’s late for me, so excuse my mistake), but luckily conclusion is still the same)

gradient = (120-20)/1s = 100/s
meaning charge time on smaller 2nd orb = (200-120 - 20)/100 = 0.6s
so atm it’s 1.25s + 0.6s = 1.85s TTK (excluding travel time of projectile)

with 0.75s max time to max charge we’re looking at
gradient = (120/20)/0.75 = 133.33/s
meaning charge time on smaller 2nd orb = (200-120 - 20)/133.33= 0.45s
so new TTK = 1s + 0.45 = 1.45s

which is kinda in line with most bursty weapon fires off the top of my head o.o

like mccree is 0.5s per shot and needs 3 bodyshots to kill a 200 hp target which is technically 1s TTK (the 0.5s is between shots unlike charge time of sym orbs, hence why it’s 1s and not 1.5s for mccree).

I mean… the point of the 3.0 rework was to do that… they just didn’t have the right numbers for that to actually happen :stuck_out_tongue:
and with these changes, her gameplay wouldn’t be all that drastically different to current (unless you’ve been stubbornly trying to play like old sym with current kit and/or hard relying on team pockets for w+m1 all day).

1 Like