I’m glad you think playing Mercy is fun and engaging, Soldier/Torb/Sombra player.
I cant speak to the “every time”, only this particular time - but - you had implied that Mercy doesnt have a real ult when she factually does
I disagreed with the statement that was made
I (and many others) enjoy using Valkyrie as it is. I find it to be fun, effective, and balanced. To me, it is more than just flying, and I have found many uses for it.
In my experience, I do gain a lot from the additional positioning options when in Valkyrie
In my experience, I have yet to encounter any drawbacks from use of Valkyrie
In my experience, I have found it to be very impactful/effective, and in a number of different ways
In my experience, I have found it to be one of the best ults in the game, and Jayne has said so as well
For me, the experience is much different
I think you must have me confused with another player
Why does it feel like you don’t actually play Mercy…
Saying that the healing of Valkyrie is not outclassed by Zen’s ult or that the damage amp of Valkyrie isn’t outclassed by Orisa’s ult doesn’t seem like something someone that actually played Mercy would say…
Also, what benefits do you gain from the new positioning? Widow can peek from corners more easily, but as Mercy you’re stuck behind your tank’s barrier and flying too high makes you an easy target for hitscans.
Forcing widows out of position could be one benefit, but you can do that even without flying, and you’re losing value as a healer if you spend too much time trying that. Even Moira can do that without (and with) her ult by just throwing a damaging orb at her and still keep healing her team while the orb does its job.
You use “in my experience” a lot, but it feels like you actually have little to no experience with Mercy, or any other character, for that matter.
I play Mercy quite a bit.
One of my 3 most frequently played characters.
What are you referring to with “why?” Why would any hero hide? To avoid being seen by the enemy team. It still doesn’t prove your point in your false claim on what you thought I said, nor does it disprove my statement that pointed it out. You were objectively wrong there Slyther, regardless, and now you are trying to change the question. Quite cute.
Nasty habit? I believe you are projecting an opinion there, and will unfortunately have to disagree. I do believe I have explained it quite plainly actually when I gave my quotes, but if we choose to not be open-minded to admitting your mistakes, how can would this discussion progress? Denial is only the second sign of grief afterall… You are free to disbelieve the unfortunate truth, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I would suggest reading the previous response to your question over until you understand it. I don’t believe I need to prove anything else to you other than what was already said, and trust that you’re smart enough to make the connection eventually in terms of why your previous claim was completely false.
And so, an example of denial, the second sign of grief when met with fact. Right on que. Thank you for proving my point.
I mean, you seem to be back-tracking at this point, which I find amusing. It’s okay for us to admit when we’re wrong. We all make mistakes. I’ve already explained why Mercy hides even today, and have done so in previous posts. I don’t need to beat the dead horse. If you don’t understand by now why Mercy still needs to hide in order to rez, I don’t know what else to tell you, other than to do some research on it and read past posts. I’d rather not circle around the same argument of “he said she said” today with you when you could easily find the facts from merely scrolling up, if you don’t mind. If you are still in denial about it, well… I said what I had to say, and so did you. So we’re going to just leave it at that.
Did I say you did? I don’t believe I have…
Did I say you did? I don’t believe I have…
Then I would suggest not jumping into conversations and quoting people with accusations, without knowing the context as to why. Again, I would reccomend scrolling up, and maybe actually reading posts instead of cherry-picking and ignoring what you don’t like to read, so you don’t end up asking people in threads for it as you are doing now. Context, it’s quite important.
“Not offering anything new” has no relation to whether or not “the solution is fixed.” If you’ve read (and no seriously, you really need to start reading context before you post, since you are literally asking questions that could literally be answered if you simply scrolled up and not ignore things you don’t want to read ) you would realize that I’ve said
As I said before, I’m open for alternative suggestions. If you’re just going to sit here and complain to me by saying “That’s wrong, it won’t work” but don’t offer solutions on what will work, I’m afraid that nothing could be learned, and the fact that you have admitted to not even having a counter-solution to what I’ve proposed doesn’t get my hopes up. You have so far, left me to believe that my solution is in fact the best one right now in the meantime, and I have yet to hear anything else from you that would suggest an alternative idea.
Otherwise, I’m literally calling you out - if you don’t like the suggestion, that’s completely fine. I think we all get it for the past few months now, you don’t like mass res. How about instead of complaining about why it won’t work, offer a better idea than what I’ve given? I literally challenge you to do that. It’s easy to say something won’t work, but it’s a lot more difficult to say what will. So hey, let’s hear your solution to fixing Mercy’s current problem, since you apparently seem so “opposed” to mine. I’d love to hear it!
Except… it is.
- a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
Could we please stop with the platitudes now?
That’s nice, I have as well, but the fact remains. You haven’t played with Mass res with the suggested tweaks, and neither have I, so we are merely making assumptions on what will actually work live and what won’t. I rest my case…
That’s a wonderful opinion, and I respect it. But I’m afraid you are just projecting what you think is wrong with my idea, without countering it with one of your own. So… Once again, give me a better solution Slyther. You are repeating this expression of why you think something is wrong, and I’m literally waiting for a better alternative from you. Once again, let’s hear what you can bring to the table in terms of Mercy’s current state. How would you fix Mercy and make her more engaging, impactful, and rewarding to play, that will appeal both to people who want Valkyrie and Mass res?
I’ve explained it to you “logically,” both in the past, and already in this thread. You have even made posts in threads I’ve made on Mass res and why it would work, and you’ve ignored it and are continuing to act like such reasons don’t exist. This is why reading is very important. I would suggest going back, do your research, and look up my various threads that detail why I think Mass res “works” I have literally loads to choose from, but the first step would be to wait for it… actually read it.
Thanks for projecting your opinion, that was very cute but you are once again missing the context there of what I am constantly trying to have you understand. If you want to be given an explanation, you must first actually be willing to listen and read what is in front of you, without ignoring it or cherry-picking parts of what you think is being said. I am noticing that you really are struggling with that there, and I’m not exactly sure why that is. Needless to say, it sounds like we’re going over the same things once more. As said previously, do your research, scroll up, and search the threads and actually read them. I’m not going to constantly repeat what’s been said to you multiple times in the past before about every minute detail as to why I think Mass rez will work, and I trust that you’re able to do your own research to see that to be true. And if you still have doubts, check out Titanium’s threads. I’m no longer going to be repeating myself with you regarding Mass res, so keep that in mind!
What you perceive me to like or “don’t like” is irrelevant to this discussion. What I would like to hear are solutions. So far, you have given me none, and have literally have been complaining this entire time on what you don’t like regarding my suggestions. While that’s fine, that isn’t “fixing problems,” and as I’ve stated, hasn’t convince me of considering an alternative to what I’ve suggested. If you have a better idea, as I’ve mentioned, let’s hear it. Otherwise, we aren’t going to go anywhere with this exchange and are going to have to end the discussion right there.
“Pot, meet kettle.”
And while I’d love to keep that “Most replied to” tally going, and though I can’t wait for the next update, due to your repeated attempts of making false claims, and then back-tracking, ignoring truths, and having to be given explanations on things that could have been found from simply searching past posts or literally scrolling up, I believe we are once again reaching the end of our little discussion.
My suggestion to you is trying to come up with actual solutions to problems, rather than getting stuck on what you don’t like about them, but you of course don’t have to take my advice. I believe we have already established that we have agreed to disagree on Mercy as a whole, but it looks like you still insist on expressing why you disagree. And hey! That’s totally fine. But if you really are invested in the topic, I would suggest making a thread about Mass Res, explaining why you don’t like it, and offer solutions you think will work. I’m sure you would get every answer you would ever need that way, not just from what I’ve been telling you, but from the community as a whole. Either way, I wish you well in your endeavors. Have a good one!
~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
I was going to go into detail on your post, but then I realized that I’m just beating a dead horse.
I asked a simple question, and you still have yet to give me an actual answer.
How would your solution fix the “hide and res” problem?
The fact that you’d rather spend however long it took you to write all that to focus on personal attacks instead of just giving me a basic explanation sorta proves my point, you don’t think it’d solve the problem to begin with, and it’s just an excuse to ask for Mass Res back just to have Mass Res again.
You’re more than welcome to prove that wrong, though. That’s sorta why I asked.
As for the rest…
- What about Mercy’s kit forces her to hide? The other healers don’t have to, so why Mercy in particular?
- I thought when you claimed Mercy had to hide during res, it was because her cast time made her vulnerable, but evidently that was just a wrong assumption where I “read what I wanted to”, and you still have yet to actually say why
- Guess I’ll just say it again. 3 (lengthy) responses in now, and you still have yet to just give a decent explanation as to how a cast time + LoS would stop Mercy from hiding with Mass Res when she has those exact same restrictions on E Res, and yet according to you, she still hides currently.
- I don’t have a problem with current Mercy, and I can’t come up with a solution to a non-existent problem.
- A lack of a second alternative doesn’t make your idea any better. I simply prefer what we already have, thanks.
- I’ve said in the past, in response to you specifically if memory serves, that I don’t actually hate Mass Res and wouldn’t be opposed to seeing it return. I simply don’t like how people present their arguments or solutions.
- Denial is the first stage of grief, not the second sign
I think that about sums up everything actually relevant to the topic at hand, and then some.
Well, nobody invited me to this party, but here we go.
Tbh Mercy now must hide. Why? Easy. Stationary mode. This happened long ago during game’s beta, and the results were exactly the same as right now. Almost no one liking that ability because it’s annoying for everyone and forces hide and rez (otherwise you die). Yeah, it seems now somepeople like calling that “taking cover” but that’s hypocritical since they called before “hiding” to taking cover, generalising something that was simply a minor exploit. In the most of the cases, she simply took cover during an ult storm and that’s it. If one was hiding, this one is even more hiding, since you can’t choose.
That’s wrong. Here is a little fact that makes a huge difference. You are comparing a stationary rez with a not stationary rez. Do you think that’s the same thing? In one case you are sniper bait unless you are hiding, but in the second case you can move and still fight for your own survivality instead of hiding like a coward. That’s the greatest difference. In one case, you are not mobile at all (and Mercy is supposed to be a mobile character, not intermittently) while in the other you are fully mobile.
Yeah, there are more differences like the cast time fitting with the voice line, so Mercy wouldn’t seem like going in slow motion each 30 sec, but the main point is the stationary rez. That was a terrible mistake from the past, and it should never have come back. Mercy never needed a revert back to that.
Funny thing, I remember that you made a huge and elaborated survey with a lot of people from everywhere, and the results were that Mercy needed changes because she was bad, this revert (you said rework but okay…) was not liked, and the majority wanted mass rez back with changes. I know, the results didn’t match with your opinion, but you put that effort, so I thought you were going to respect your own results and your own work.
Easy peasy, name me a support who must be stationary for 2 seconds during an ability other than Mercy.
Okay, the point here is that you are wrong. Her cast time has nothing to do there. The problem is the slow down.
Already explained. Do I have to do it again? Stationary rez vs not stationary rez. Please, remember the entire ability, not just a convenient part of it. There is a huge difference. It’s like comparing traditional italian pizza with pizza with pineapple. Yeah, they are the “same thing” because they have some shared qualities (ingredients), but they are not the same already.
You did a survey and the majority of people disagree with your personal opinion. Now you are in denial about your own facts. Maybe you don’t have a problem but people do really have.
Personal opinion. Anyway, I’m sure you have brain so you can think about something whether if that makes the character better or not. Also, trying to suggest changes in order to make a character better for everyone is not bad, quite the opposite.
Well, that’s fine. However, now I wonder how you’d want people to present their arguments/solutions, since we have saw all types of suggestions, arguments, etc.
Fact as it clearly stated in his/her own thread that the don’t even repersent the entire fourm much less the games “majority” that you until blizzard has survey force into every single game of overwatch on all plaforms then “majority” isn’t really factually correct now is it?
Talking about majority… Ow is not liked by a majority of people in the world (maybe because they don’t like it, they don’t play it or they don’t know it). Can we state that it hasn’t succeeded? Want my answer? It’s “no”. The same goes for your post. Yes, no change comes from a majority, we know it, but that doesn’t mean that there are no problems there. This is how real world works.
Surveys are made with the purpose of showing the opinion from a portion of the people. Since it collected feedback from all types of players and not too few, it was a good survey. You’ll never see a survey off the whole population, that’s impossible.
I know you didnt ask me but I want to point some stuff out.
No other healer has a stationary ability like rez. So of course they dont have to stand still and hide while utilizing their kit.
A casttime isnt that bad if you can still move during it which isnt really the case with Mercy. Plus her current rez casttime is longer than some ults need for activation. Rein and Lucio have a “casttime” if you will and can get disrupted and countered during it. Meanwhile Mercy has an even longer cast and gets slowed down by 75%.
Again LoS and casttime are not the only restrictions for the current rez. LoS can also be abused if you know how. So rez behind a wall can still work even if its rather rare to pull of.
Hide and rez was a problem because of broken SR gains but that bug should be fixed so I dont think it would return anyway. Plus its not like it was a good winning strategy since mostly those players had a very bad winrate and could only climb thanks to broken comp system.
yes but that doesn’t mean it’s a predominantly big problem and also having different reasons for the reasonings just as expamle( behind it maybe people only found
mass rez fun do people find juggling beams and health pools fun in the first place) as the point I’m trying to make just because a portion of people
expressing their opinion on topic does not automatically validate their opinion and being aloud to state as a fact “mercy is unfun for the majority of the commuinty it’s a problem for OW”
No absoultly not it does not mean that it’s silly to think that that’s kinda why if find surveys silly cause they do nothing but give people fake validation
from a skewed sample size and it’s kinda why this is the most debated topic on this forum as nobody can come up with a straight up answer as thats why surveys have to be so specific
so people know what to push for but without a acutal huge sample size the forums will always push for different ideals of what mercy should be
and thats not even counting for if the forums knows whats best for the game thats a whole nother arguement.
I’ll be very direct here. Following your logic, it doesn’t matter the amount of people calling for a problem to be fixed, nothing should be done… and the same goes for no one complaining about something because the same logic could work in both directions. How do you really know what the people who is not complaining here thinks? So, your argument doesn’t make sense since it basically says that no survey should be listened to and that no feedback should be listened to. In other words, we would be in a situation where nothing should be changed and everything should be changed since nothing is a minority nor a majority. That’s crazy.
Oh, yes, and there are a lot of suggestions out there, tons of them. That’s why in so many surveys there is a place where they ask your own opinion so you can say what you want instead of the options given. About which one to pick, that’s not our problem. We can discuss each one of them, point out possible failures, advantages and disadvantages, but we are not the devs, so we can’t do their work for them. That would be stupid. We can help them discarding the worsts (and reasoning why), and that’s it.
Finally, about the forums wanting or not wanting the best for the game, I’m sure that if people are complaining about Mercy not being herself anymore because she is not a strong (not op) single target mobile consistent main support focused on (Jeff’s words) healing/mobility, but a cheap but weak hybrid target intermittently mobile consistent off support focused on dps/rez, that’s a good thing (aka, people worrying about what’s best for a character) because that’s saying that Mercy has lost her character and that requires fixing. Valk was removed for good during alpha because it was too bad design, weak, etcetera, and now the same problems are back. Stationary rez was gone too during beta because of the exact same reasons people are arguing now. Reverted mechanic, reverted back to those problems. 50 hp/s healing was buffed for good after season 3 because Mercy was a trol pick with it, with Ana outperforming her as burst and consistent support. Reverted, so same situation again, with the exception that now Moira is there, so she can still compete with Ana at lower ranks, but Mercy is dead as a main support.
Factually, rez is not a stationary ability
That’s what I thought. But apparantly I was “reading what I wanted to” out of the comments that brought up the hide and res, so I figured I’d ask what the intent was if I was so wrong.
And I was laughed at for wanting to be corrected.
Thank you for clarifying.
This is literally all I wanted from the beginning.
When people say “just add a cast time to Mass Res” I always just pictured it as simply adding the cast time we already have, as we already have it, to Mass Res, which is understandable since it’s the only thing we have to compare it to. I don’t really remember anyone specifying that the slow would be removed from said cast time, definitely not in this thread.
You’re right, without the near stationary element of the cast time, Mercy wouldn’t have to sit behind a wall hoping no one turns the corner, and she’d still have a fighting chance for bigger Res’s.
My issues are my own, and yours are your own.
It doesn’t matter if I’m the only person who doesn’t see an issue. If I don’t see one, then I’m not going to offer a solution to fix it.
Say we paint a room blue. A lot of people don’t like the blue. Some want it red, others green, and some want to just go back to the original white we had before painting. But I, alone, like it blue.
Sure, I can say we probably need to change the color because most people don’t like blue, and that’s fair because I’m outnumbered. But being in a minority doesn’t devalue my opinion, and I’m not going to try and suggest better colors when I think we already have the best color. I can just leave that to the others to debate then roll with whatever comes of it.
Doesn’t stop me from speaking up when someone offers the idea of periwinkle, though.
But again, I was apparently just “ignoring the context and reading what I wanted to” when I assumed that was what they were talking about when they brought up “current hide and res”.
I’ll be perfectly honest here, this is just nitpicking.
It’s like saying you’re not allergic to peanut butter, you’re just allergic to peanuts. Sure, there’s a root of the problem, but that doesn’t change the fact that this contains the problem ingredient.
The slow down is still an element of casting Res, and with what’s on live, you can’t seperate the slow down from the cast, thus Mercy has to hide during the cast, and the cast (as it is now) is the problem.
No not really, but thank you for doing so.
Honestly, at this point it feels like the other way around.
When I say cast time, I’m considering the ability as a whole, with all elements being considered as one.
Whereas you’re the one who’s splitting it up into its different elements (slow down vs duration of cast time) and deciding to focus on one element in particular, and that’s where the confusion was.
When I say pizza, I’m talking about the overall, classic pizza that we’re all already familiar with. I have no way of knowing that you’re simply talking about one ingredient until you specify, and I definitely can’t know that you want to change it.
And the purpose of the survey was to help stop with the overgeneralizing that goes on on these forums, and to be used against arguments degrading Mercy mains’ opinions such as “you’re just a vocal minority, stop complaining”.
Sadly, it seems now it’s just been turned around on its head, with Mercy mains over generalizing themselves to the point where everyone has to agree with Mass Res or a Rework, or you’re simply wrong.
Funny how things work out.
But if I don’t have a problem… then it’s not my problem.
What is my problem, however, is if a poorly thought out change, or honestly just a change I wouldn’t enjoy, were to be taken seriously into consideration, as said change would cut into something I do currently like. So I speak up and point out my problems with suggested changes.
Besides, let’s be real here. The entire “Revert Mercy” idea is built on a selfish notion: “I don’t have fun, but I used to, so we should go back to what I considered to be fun.”
Sure, you can find plenty of people who share the same notion, but the notion is still individually selfish nonetheless.
Is it really so bad for me to be just as selfish, saying I’m fine with what we have?
Is it really a crime to not have making everyone happy be my job?
I’m sharing my opinion just like anyone else. If I don’t think Mercy needs changes, then it’s not my responsibility to come up with changes for Mercy.
If you mean the second part, where I prefer what we already have, then yes. It is my opinion.
But the first part? Not really. Your idea doesn’t suddenly become 10x better just because no one else can think of something better.
It may be the best on the table, but that doesn’t mean I have to like anything that’s on the table, especially when I always have the initial option of just ignoring the table to begin with.
You’d be surprised.
I’m not saying it’s bad. More ideas are typically good.
But it’s not my responsibility to come up with ideas.
If you do decide to come up with ideas, however, then it is your responsibility to consider any feedback to said changes, both good and bad. You can’t just write off any negativity with the childish “well I don’t see you doing any better.” (Especially when that negativity is just based off of a question about a misunderstanding)
Again, bad ideas are still bad, even if the person pointing it out to you doesn’t offer something better.
Looking back at that, I get that it could be taken as “I have some specific criteria that every argument should hit otherwise it’s deemed unfit for these forums” which wasn’t my intent.
As far as arguments go, just don’t be wrong. Simple as that. If you use what I feel like is faulty logic, then I’ll point that fault out for consideration. That’s not a bad thing, it’s just how discussions are bred. No point to a discussion if everyone agrees on the same side, after all, especially if it’s about a desired change.
As far as solutions go, then since they are subjective by nature, I’ll simply give my opinion on them, including if I don’t like them.
For both, if I seem to have misunderstood something, then I expect to be corrected, not laughed at and insulted.
75% movement speed reduction is almost stationary and significant enough.
I totally agree. Mercy is in a good spot right now and her tuning is right where it needs to be.
Don’t fix what ain’t broke.
That was my point.
You see, no one ever specified the separation between the actual cast time duration, and the slow down. At least not to my knowledge
All we’ve ever seen on live is the two together. So when I say “cast time” I’m talking about all of the elements that go with it. Likewise, whenever I see someone else suggest a “cast time on Mass Res” I naturally put the slow down with it because, again, that’s the only cast time we’ve really ever known.
Now I understand that I was looking at things differently than others, so thank you for clarifying.
I consider the slow down as part of the cast, similar to how McCree is slowed down during his ult. By that definition, they really are, which is where the confusion comes from.
Eh, still need LoS to start the Res, you just thankfully don’t have to maintain it.
I always thought that “problem” was interesting. We used to have an issue with healers not getting as much SR as other roles. We complained about that, Blizzard attempted a fix, and then people exploited that fix to skyrocket.
I wonder what would have happened if we simply didn’t complain about SR to begin with.
That, my friend, is a debate for another time.
Take away Infinite ammo, slightly increase fire rate, and boom a bit more balanced.