🐉 Typhon's Veil Focused Feedback

PTR Feedback
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Placeholder for Typhon’s Veil and Hydra feedback. Feel free to chime in with your thoughts on the new Wizard set, Hydra mechanics, and supporting Legendaries!

Typhon's Veil Patch Notes

https://us.diablo3.com/en/blog/23298649/patch-268-ptr-begins-26-1-31-2020#Wiz

I will update here with my thoughts and feedback after testing.

:mage: :sparkles:
:snowflake: :dragon: :dragon:
:milky_way: :dragon: :dragon:
:zap: :dragon::dragon:
:fire: :dragon_face::dragon_face:

Hydra Mechanics

Rune Mechanics:

  • Note: Some of the following listings in this section are taken from d3planner.

Unruned:

  • Max Projectile Distance, 50 yards. Projectile speed, .45. Can apply Conflagration. Hydra heads offset, 2 yards. Can Crit. All runes line of sight check.

Arcane:

  • Max Projectile Distance, 50 yards. Projectile speed, 1. AoE radius, 7.5 yards. Arcane Attunement increases damage (more below). Can Crit.

Lightning:

  • Search distance, 50 yards. Can Crit. Can benefit from Starfire as a separate multiplier. Benefit is increased every 10 yards, starting at yard 0. Can proc Paralysis, and benefit from Manald Heal proc damage.

Blazing:

  • Max Projectile Distance, 50 yards. Projectile speed, 1. Can apply Conflagration. Burn duration: 3 seconds. Does not crit, but CHC/CHD included in damage formula as multiplier. AoE radius, likely 7.5 yards.

Frost:

  • Speed Coefficient of .5 but ~2x damage. Pie Angle: 30 degrees. Attack radius: 35 yards. Can Crit. Applies .5s chill effect. Chill effect applies before damage instance, therefore, it increases Bane of the Trapped damage at range.

Mammoth:

  • Max Distance, 50 yards. Firewall spawn duration, 1.8s (takes that long to fully spawn). Firewalls can stack, applies damage from each hydra cast. Firewall duration of 3s. Firewall damage radius of 5 yards. Firewall refresh rate, every .3s. Does not crit, but CHC/CHD included in damage formula as multiplier.

General Set Mechanics and Multipliers:

  • SS and Magistrate multiply damage of all Hydra runes.
  • Magistrate does not increase MH proc damage (Lightning Hydra).
  • Serpent sparker does not increase MH proc Damage (Lightning Hydra).
  • Typhon’s 6pc does not increase MH proc damage (Lightning Hydra).
  • Mirror Images cast hydras but they don’t interact with the set bonuses. Source: Wudijo, Masterjay).
  • Hydra Skill % damage on gear is a separate multiplier (not additive with DIBS surprisingly).
  • Typhon’s Veil only provides 1 stack in regards to Mammoth Hydra, this includes the benefit to the 4 and 6 piece bonuses.
  • Typhon’s ICD on Hydra heads (if it exists) is very low <= .5s Fixed
  • Typhon’s 4pc ICD is now 2s. Only one head dies upon getting hit after the ICD has expired, and this action triggers the ICD again.
  • Typhon’s 4pc working for head count. Probably full DR applied to a hit before head death. Could not confirm, but with the animation, this is likely.
  • 4pc: Stacks are additive. 10 stacks = 80% DR. DR working as expected at 1, 5, 10 stacks.
  • 4pc: Shielding does not prevent 4pc stack loss. Noted as bug here: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/12151/7 Fixed
  • 4pc shielding now prevents stack loss.
  • 2pc: One head not benefitting from from arcane dynamo. Unsure if the same is true for elite damage%. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/12192 Should be fixed, I have not tested as yet.
  • Arcane Dynamo is snapshot.
  • Arcane Attunement increases damage of the Arcane Hydra as a multiplier. The Magistrate, Serpent Sparker, and Typhon’s 6 piece benefit and scale with arcane attunement. Arcane Attunement is snapshot.
  • Arcane torrent double dips channeling multiplier bonuses upon ramp up of skill. Example: Deathwish gives not just 4.25X but 4.25*4.25 multiplier when fully ramped up. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/12182

Spawn / Despawn of Hydra and Heads:

  • Hydra is stationary. Moving away does not despawn on the same level. Zoning does despawn Hydra. Hydra despawns upon death.
  • Etched Sigil will not spawn a new Hydra upon channeling if the maximum number of Hydras possible are already summoned.
  • 4pc: Hydra Head death order is not based on position.
  • 4pc: Hydra Head death order is seemingly random.

Additive, Elemental, Elite, Area Damage:

  • Taeguk is dynamic. Spellsteal is dynamic. These are both additive bonuses, so it is likely other additive bonuses are dynamic as well.
  • Elemental abilities: Flame Blades / Absolute Zero are snapshottable.
  • Elemental damage on gear is snapshot.
  • Hydra refreshes one stack of elemental exposure upon dealing damage. Which elemental stack is applied is depedant on the rune in use.
  • Elite damage is shapshottable.
  • Area damage scales with: Magistrate, Serpent Sparker, Typhon’s 6 piece.
  • Question: Can 2pc Heads apply area damage?

The Magistrate:

  • The Magistrate casts three frost nova blasts in rapid succession. All three Frost Nova procs initiate within the same 5 frame window. These Magistrate frost nova chain procs occur every 1.5s (90 frames).
  • Magistrate frost nova procs always use the base rune. Magistrate frost nova procs freeze enemies within a 19 yard radius of the base of the right side, top side, and left side hydra heads for 2 seconds, and proc in that order within the aforementioned 5 frame window.
  • The first frost nova proc occurs 90 frames after the Hydra has been fully summoned. Based on testing at 1.96 AS, this is about 110 to 115 frames (~1.75s) after the hydra summon cast has been intiated.
  • Bug report link for 3 Frost novas per proc window: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/12293
Existing Bug Reports

Broken Mechanics bugs:

  • Issue: Channeling multiplier double dip with Arcane Torrent. Bug: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/12182 Fixed
  • Issue: Shielding does not prevent 4pc stack loss. Bug: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/12151/7 Fixed
  • Issue: One head not benefitting from from arcane dynamo with 2pc Typhon’s. Unsure if the same is true for elite damage%. Bug: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/12192 Should be fixed, I have not tested as yet.
  • Issue: The Magistrate casts three frost nova blasts in rapid succession. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/12293
    Issue: Animation delay on the first attack after a Hydra is summoned. It’s really noticeable on speed runs and nephalem rifting. All hydra runes except frost exhibit this slowdown on the first attack. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/12668
  • Issue: Taking damage with shields causes damage taken value to be calculated without 4 piece included. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/12884/14
  • Issue: Hydra Heads still die while shielding pylon buff applied.
    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/12938
Feedback

Thanks to the team for working to give Wizard a new set and for revisiting Hydra. I appreciate the effort made to make this an engaging and fun style of play. :slightly_smiling_face:

Note: The following feedback provided is with Non-Seasonal in mind (No Forbidden archives included), and will be provided in an Issue / Suggestion format (suggested fix or solution).

Issue: Typhon’s Veil 4pc allows for too many heads to die. Base toughness is far too low when you accout for this, and 6pc damage can dip way below that of other sets.

  • Suggestion: Fix the 4pc to only kill off extra heads spawned from the two piece bonus. This would allow for a consistent 48% DR as long as Hydras are spawned, and no less than 6 head’s worth of multiplier.

Issue: ICD on Typhon’s Veil 4pc Hydra head death is very low or non-existant. Fixed

  • Suggestion: Increase the ICD. Perhaps make it 1-2s.

Issue: Hydra Head death order is seemingly random. For many builds it takes significant effort to spawn a fully buffed Hydra.

  • Suggestion: Fix the 4pc Typhon’s Veil bonus so that heads die in FIFO prioritization corresponding to Hydra spawn order.

Issue: The set and build have very limited mobility.

  • Suggestion: The Wizard Gains ~10% Movement speed per the number of Hydra heads active (or per maximum heads allowed).
  • Suggestion: The wizard can now move through enemies. Each enemy killed increases Movement speed by ~10%, stacking up to 5 times.
  • Suggestion: When the wizard’s pets kill an enemy, gain an (Aetherwalker esque) clearcasting state, allowing the player to cast teleport with no cooldown. Additional details: Needs to have an AP cost if intent is to have calamity to count as a resource-spending attack in regards to effects like Bastion’s of will.

Issue: Required Typhon’s Veil itemization too crowded / not enough room to fit in Attack Speed based items.
Issue: Mixing CC based item (The Magistrate) with a multiplier.
Note: The above seem to all be related and could be solved by the below suggestion.

  • Suggestion: Remove the multiplier from the magistrate and shift it to the Serpent Sparker or Typhon’s (or split between both). This would free up an item slot for use with Hydra AS increasing items, or alternatively, make room for an item of the player’s choice. Magistrate has a crowd controlling effect and as such should not be required for use in a Hydra build. (What if the player wants other means of CC, such as a Ranslor pull, or Black hole?)

Issue: Magistrate does not freeze immediately after summon. Could be an issue for speed builds using this item.

  • Suggestion: With Magistrate, allow for initial frost nova proc after summoning hydra if possible to allow for quicker application of freeze.

Issue: The set only associates with one ability, and that’s Hydra. Inclusion of more skills would be preferable.

  • Suggestion: scale signature damage & attack speed with the set.
  • Suggestion: Include Blizzard (fan favorite).
  • Suggestion: have the Hydra heads (or Hydras) cast your spenders when you do.
  • Suggestion: have the Hydra heads (or Hydras) cast your signatures when you do.
  • Suggestion: If this is the pet set, include mirror image, and / or familiar (as an active dynamic damage increasing skill), and revamp those two skills at some later time.
  • Note: As you can see, there will probably be a lot of suggestions for this issue…

Issue: I miss Manald Heal Lightning Hydra as a playstyle. No suggestions on how to fix this or make MH stronger with Hydra yet. Balance with non-MH Hydra here is difficult.

Issue: Typhon’s shoulderpiece rolls with +Armor by default.

  • Suggestion: Fix for a more relative affix… Hydra % damage or VIT? or even: remove this additional defaulted affix.

Issue: Animation delay on the first attack after a Hydra is summoned. It’s really noticeable on speed runs and nephalem rifting. All hydra runes except frost exhibit this slowdown on the first attack.

  • Suggested Fix : Fix first Hydra animation for runes other than Frost so that Hydra consistently attacks at a speed equivalent to the current FPA.

Issue: Taking damage with shields causes damage taken value to be calculated without 4 piece included. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/12884/14

Changelog
  • (2/6/2020): Initial version.
  • (2/7/2020): Edited formatting and added more mechanics info from testing.
  • (2/8/2020): Tested Frost Hydra for chill, doesn’t display ‘chilled’ but definitely applies it before the damage instance.
  • (2/8/2020): Added Feedback section (initial version).
  • (2/8/2020): Minor edit to signature suggestion.
  • (2/8/2020): Added move through enemies + move speed suggestion for mobility.
  • (2/9/2020): Added mechanics info for Hydra Skill% damage and Mirror image.
  • (2/11/2020): Added Typhon’s shoulderpiece issue.
  • (2/12/2020): All runes but frost animation delay on first attack issue added.
  • (2/18/2020): Added damage taken with shields issue. Adjusted mechanics section for fixed issues. Added bug link for heads dying while shielding pylon applied.

Thank you for reading! Can’t wait to try out Hydra in earnest. :mage: :sparkles: :dragon: :dragon:

34 Likes
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Nice, great job Cratic, was going to state MH and Mirror images do not work with new set but you already got that covered.

It’s honestly a good thing, had they worked with this it would clearly be broken.

While testing with it’s intended channel modifier with Ray of Frost, did a 110 with about 6 minutes to spare 1900 paragon, 17k main stat, 2 augments? Still seems to be good albeit clunky. With shielding bug fixed I could see 115 clear which is a few GR better than Vyr/chant. I still wish channeling wasn’t a thing with it but without any other good off-hand and weapon all damage modifier we’re stuck with channel only.

4 Likes
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Thanks, MasterJay!

I can definitely see Typhon’s Veil as a decent option for solo or group speeds, similar to how Tal Meteor Shower used to clear slow but hit heavy. Meta wise, I’d be more exited about an RGK build for Hydra than area clear.

Typhon’s could probably use some method of speed increase to the set. I’ve got a few ideas, but I want to test the set properly (once the bugs are fixed) before providing that feedback.

5 Likes
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Well keep in mind Bazooka just got gutted, we need a build that excels at trash killing now but yes it would be best if we could use different hydras and different set ups to fill the two different roles but the more powerful one IMO needs to be trash killer for us to be meta. And since hydras utilize Area Damage and Vyrs Chants does not, I think Typhon set being more focused on elite speed while LoN replacing LoN Bazooka for trash killing seems would be the best scenario.

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We are lacking as a trash killer, especially after the Vyrtodo nerf.

Perhaps I’m just trying to desperately revive my good memories of hydra as an RGK wizard. I should expand my expectations in this regard, especially since Hydra can benefit from Area Damage with SS, Magi, Typhon’s, you have a good point here.

Then again, what if MH could work with Hydra better in some regard? :laughing: Perhaps I’ll just run my offmeta RGK build in the meantime (Vyr MH + Hydra?).

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4-Piece Bonus: … Each time you take damage, a Hydra heads dies.
IMHO heads must be taken from early summoned Hydra. Right now it’s random.
FE you have 10 heads. Take damage from poison… 7 heads. You never guess how much heads you have after resummon 1 Hydra. Sometimes 8, sometimes 9, rarely 7 or 10.

4 Likes
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my thought after testing the new set and combinations:

  • 2pc hydra duration is useless, because you will be most likely summon new hydras within 15s interval after losing heads, and with the current set bug, not losing heads is impossible unless your hydra is 1 shotting everything.

  • echoing fury stacks increase the attack rate of lightning hydra. but they do not increase attack rate of frost hydra, but the damage is increased.

  • the mobility of this build is heavily weighted down by channeling, I’d say the build can be much more versatile without channeling, but those channeling multipliers are essential for the damage output.

  • people will most likely use LoD version of the channeling hydra due to higher damage, and more legendary powers especially in season 20, LoD can use echoing fury and TnT And orb of infinite depth, that’s a lot more damage and toughness the set cannot provide.

Recommendation(s) and ideas:

2pc bonus change from:

double the hydra duration
to
each head provides 4-5% bonus movement speed.
or
while all heads are alive, wizard is granted immunity to control impairing effects.
or
each head increases the effectiveness of shield by 10–20%.
or
each head reduces the resource cost by 5%
or
increased damage in someways

this will help the set shine in some scenario over the LoD version rather than being totally outclassed.

6 Likes
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Thanks to Cratic for his dedication and support to our class ! Keep the good work going, dude ! =)

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Could be position based. EDIT: Not position based, seems random.

I agree with you though. FIFO prioritization should be in place for Hydra head deaths. Good thought! Will test this later.

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The biggest issues with Typhon’s seem to be:

  1. All damage is piped into Hydra but then…Hydra is a fire-and-forget skill. What am I doing with my arcane power while I’m waiting for Hydra to clear the room? Usually it’s best to focus on boosting one skill as much as possible but I feel like Hydra works best in conjunction with other spells.
  2. Current Typhon’s Veil iteration promotes a reliance on DW and ES and channeling to boost damage but channeling is already over-represented in Wiz builds, IMO.
  3. Damage and DR tied to Hydra heads - this would be ok if we were free to move and teleport but for max damage we need to be channeling.

The best idea I’ve seen so far has been to create an off-hand that grants a damage bonus while moving. Specifically, they proposed altering The Oculus to grant that damage bonus while keeping the Teleport cooldown reduction. Let’s keep that and run with it.

Instead of piping all damage through Hydra, what if we also boost another spell that works similarly as a fire-and-forget? I’m thinking of Blizzard.

Typhon’s Veil 6pc Bonus: Hydras AND BLIZZARD deal 1000% increased damage for each Hydra head alive.

Serpent’s Sparker - Keep the extra hydra but replace the damage bonus with something that will benefit other skills. Either + all damage, a stacking damage buff or DOT, or maybe another +1/+2 hydra heads?

The Magistrate - Again, we need to enhance the interplay between Hydra and other skills, preferably either Blizzard and maybe Signature spells, as well.
Example: Allow enemies to be damaged by 2 stacks of Blizzard at a time and throw in a damage buff to enemies who are being damaged by Blizzard.

Just my two cents. Thanks for reading.

2 Likes
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Still reading your feedback and suggestions.:grinning:

Frost Hydra has a speed coefficient of .5 but deals about double base skill damage (cannot quite remember the value there).

This is similar to how cold skeleton mages work for necromancer.

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I’d honestly rather see this set work with the primary skills, and then see a buff to things like mirror ball and mykens maybe also change fragment to all primary skills not just blades. Imagine a chain lightning build with lit hydras stunning monsters all over the place would be fun as hell.

3 Likes
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The head loss when damage taken needs to go. Whatever IC is in place is not good enough and you lose valuable damage and DR at times very quickly.

The channeling aspect does not work well with this set…due to the mechanic of only summoning a new hydra when one expires is very clunky. Not as bad if you are going slow but if you are moving quickly you’ll need to hard cast hydra regularly.

A quick fix is simply axing the “losing a hydra head when you take damage” part of the 4p would remove a big headache from the set.

I would like to see hydra somehow fit better with channeling…don’t know how or if it is possible to do this, would be nice if there are no hydra on the screen you summon new hydra with the channel. But like I said this part wouldn’t seem easy and might be anti-synergistic for builds that strive to be at distance from foes.

If this set won’t see much change, I’d rather run LoD hydra. You don’t need to track heads and can run lots of useful powers.

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Truly well done post. Thank you Cratic.

In my opinion Hydra set is a worthwhile addition but sadly the current iteration fall short of the intended mark.
The power of hydra comes primarily from two supporting items (SS, Magistrate) which makes the LoN build the better option in all aspects for Hydra build.

The main issue is due to channellings buffs being too strong to ignore, but working against Typhon’s set in its current set.
We need to both stand still (for over a second for the channelling to kick in) but we also cannot get hit because we loose both damage reduction and damage itself.

Unless a bigger rework is needed, we truly need to at least increase the inner cd on how fast the next head can be killed, because fast attacks destroy us completely.
Two not so hard to implement option would be:

  1. I would even go so far, that the damage reduction should stay as long as we have active hydra at all (so unless ALL heads are killed we got full damage reduction and ideally full damage as well)
  2. Only the additional heads provided by set could be killed. Hence we would drop to, at worst, 6 heads.
    That would mean 48% reduction. And yeah, I think we can have this number easily active ‘for free’ all the time just because we have hydra spawned, given the standard 50% reduction of most sets).
    With this second option it would actually rewards being able to dodge, but would still be workable. The damage falloff could hurt more in this scenario

Channelling issue. Unless we fundamentally change how the chanelling Sword + Off hand works, which would sadly affect almost all other build (save pure Archon) I think we need to come up with something new.
My only workable idea at the moment, on how to do so and maybe even save this set when compared to LoN variant, would be to implement an additional 6 piece bonus -> a much stronger version of “Hexing Pants of Mr. Yan”.
Hydra would be additionally boosted when we are moving and for one second after we stop (as to enable stutter stepping and actually being able to cast anything). The exact multiplier of this boost is of course up for discussion, but it needs to be on par with the Channeling weapon duo or even higher. This would actually enable to let as try to actively avoid taking damage and would reward this style of gameplay

2 Likes
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I was looking for this set when I heard of it, because I am myself a fan of hydra. I even came back for it.
I tested it yesterday, so here is my opinion about it and how I would like to modify about it.

-Pc2 : I like the fact that you get 2 more heads, and like it has been said, for me too the duration extend is not necessary, I even say it is a disadvantage, because I tested with a frost build and I was using Etched Sigil, and since it work with duration for hydra case, it wouldn’t recast Hydra by my Ray of Frost attacks unless 30 sec. passed or 5 heads died. Thats very impractical.

-Pc.4 : I’m glad to hear the fact that shield doesn’t protect from losing a hydra head is a bug. But I admit it is annoying to lose an hydra head each time you receive damage, but I kinda see why they have done it. I might be said wrong, but considering how much damage reduction you get when you have 10 heads, its very strong. But there is surelly better ways.

-Pc.6 : I find the damage amazing and I love that. The majority might not like it, but I actually love it that hydra is a little somewhat my main damage and I help with skills like Ray of Frost and Black Hole Absolute Zero. Considering a total of 10 heads, it calcul 10x10×1000%=100 000%, which is crazy, and I love this.

-I’m not a big fan of the appearance of this set. I would habe loved a more draconic style appearance than an insect style.

So now I said my opinion, here are the points I would change :

-About Pc.4, since I also found it is the biggest problem. Even though I understand its bothersome, I understand quite the motive of putting this, so I shouldn’t remove it (unless it is logic to not lose such a big boost in damage reduction), but only when you receive damage is too hard. It has been suggested previously, and I like the idea of only on a certain % of your hp is lost, you lose a head.

  • About Pc.2, I found it annoying about the extended duration. I would actually change it for a ability to auto-cast a Hydra near you when using a specific spell, like maybe teleport (you teleport and you letban hydra in your previous place).

About change, there is something I would like to point as a better idea. I mean I understand the idea of the set to be based on heads because, well, hydra. But I remember an idea that was suppose to be a rune, which is the hydra to have a body and been able to follow you. I loved that idea and find it sad it has been canceled. When I heard of this set, I was hoping for this, but even though its not the case, I still like it. But I would like to see that concept revive. Here is my idea if it would be based on this :

-Pc.2 : Extend duration of hydra and hydra can now follow you.

-Pc.4 : reduce 10% damages by hydra heads. For each 20% of your HP, 1 hydra head disappear.

-Pc.6 : Hydra deal 2000% more damage for each head.

What do you think?

P.S. I wrote this with my cellphone, so sorry if there are orthograph errors.

1 Like
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A slightly off-topic question. Why do top players choose mammoth hydra instead of blazing hydra? As far as I understand, 1 mammoth deals 330% while 1 blazing head deals 155% (meaning 465% in total per 3-headed hydra).

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For LoD builds it works because each attack Mammoth Hydra releases totals for 1,650% damage if the mobs stay in the fire river. The rivers also deal damage separately from each other so basically they stack.

18

But blazing hydra stacks too? Or do you mean even with 10 blazing hydra heads, maximum stacks per mob is only 155%x5 = 775%? If that’s the case, mammoth is indeed better.

Next question, it seems power hungry and zei stone combo is a better combination than enforcer + audacity in terms of damage. Why don’t people use it?

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with LoD, Blazing does 155% per head per attack, so 465% every attack per hydra or 930% for both. Mammoth does 1,650% per attack per Hydra so 3,300% for both

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I see, what you mean is that blazing hydra doesn’t have internal 5 times of stacking like mammoth hydra, but rather stacks among its head. Does it mean in very high GR, when running Typhon set, mammoth is better than frost hydra too, considering 10 heads only shoot 2550% damage in total?

And my question above too, regarding zei stone+power hungry combo, if someone can help me understand more.